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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Talk to a JW: Trinity debate
- Thread starter Mohrb
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- Apr 2, 2003
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But, your scriptures, by your own admission, are incomplete, right? That means you are taking them out of context. There is nothing in the verses you have given that I disagree with nor that refutes the deity of Jesus nor doctrine of the Trinity.
With the doctrine of the Trinity, all of the verses you have given and the few I have given (there are many more), support it.
Like I said previously, this is one of the most important doctrines, if not the most important, so we must strive to make sure we understand correctly. Wouldn't you agree?
I do not consider the most important Doctrine to be something that is never explained in Jesus Own Words. That is your words. Thank you very much for the conversation I love talking about the Bible I appreciate your patience and your kindness. Thanks again.
- Apr 2, 2003
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But, this is a matter of truth. I have been debating this issue for over 20 years, so I am very familiar with what anti-trinitarians believe and the verses they use to support their beliefs. What I consistently find is that anti-trinitarians use verses which speak clearly of Jesus's humanity to override or otherwise distort those which speak clearly of his deity.You have presented many scriptures to explain your beliefs, I have done the same, isn't that sufficient for a friendly explanation of why each other believes a certain way?
However, Trinitarians don't use those which speak clearly of his deity to override or otherwise distort those which speak clearly of his humanity. We fully agree with both instead of pitting them against each other.
What we believe about Jesus and the nature of God must take the entirety of God's revelation into account and actually make sense out of it all. The nature of God is at the very core of Christianity and salvation. If we get Jesus wrong, we put ourselves outside of salvation.
But, consider that salvation is based on who Jesus is, not only his work on the cross.I do not consider the most important Doctrine to be something that is never explained in Jesus Own Words. That is your words. Thank you very much for the conversation I love talking about the Bible I appreciate your patience and your kindness. Thanks again.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)
From M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, regarding "name" in John 1:12:
"Expressing the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title."
That would necessarily entail his deity.
From Vincent regarding Matt 28:19:
"In the name (εἰς τὸ ὄνομα)
In the name (ἐν) has reference to the sphere within which alone true baptism is accomplished. The name is not the mere designation, a sense which would give to the baptismal formula merely the force of a charm. The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy name”), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up. It is equivalent to his person. The finite mind can deal with him only through his name; but his name is of no avail detached from his nature. When one is baptized into the name of the Trinity, he professes to acknowledge and appropriate God in all that he is and in all that he does for man. He recognizes and depends upon God the Father as his Creator and Preserver; receives Jesus Christ as his only Mediator and Redeemer, and his pattern of life; and confesses the Holy Spirit as his Sanctifier and Comforter" (bold emphasis is mine).
In other words, the deity of Jesus becomes one of the most important doctrines because of who he is, who he claimed to be, and his work on the cross, all of which is what it means to believe in his name. Also because his is the only name by which we can be saved (John 1:12; 3:18; 20:31; Acts 4:12).
- Apr 2, 2003
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Here is something else to consider:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. (ESV)
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Each of those passages have a logical conclusion in common--Jesus, or rather the Son, cannot be created. If the Son was created, if there was a time when the Son did not exist, then each of those passages is false. That is further supported by:
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says . . .
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)
That is a quote from the Psalms, which is about Yahweh:
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)
Yet, the inspired writer of Hebrews says that the Father is saying that about the Son. The Son is just as much creator as the Father is, which means that the Son cannot also have been created.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. (ESV)
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Each of those passages have a logical conclusion in common--Jesus, or rather the Son, cannot be created. If the Son was created, if there was a time when the Son did not exist, then each of those passages is false. That is further supported by:
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says . . .
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)
That is a quote from the Psalms, which is about Yahweh:
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)
Yet, the inspired writer of Hebrews says that the Father is saying that about the Son. The Son is just as much creator as the Father is, which means that the Son cannot also have been created.
We both have supported our beliefs with scriptural evidence, you know from experience these debates never go anywhere, so even if I am your enemy, you are not my enemy, why? Because Jesus words teach me to love even my enemy and people that hate me.
So I have a responsibility to extend love and friendship no matter what the other person does and says.
I do consider myself Nothing better than you, if you ask Google right now there is over 45,000 different Christian religions in the world, so why can't you let me believe what I want to and you believe what you want to?
Why do you keep making attempts to prove me wrong on something?
Jesus and the Apostles words explain what I believe. Not me!
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But, that is just the thing--I don't believe you have. I think that you have ignored the context of the verses you have given. Remember, context includes not only the immediate context, but the entire context of the chapter, the book, and the entirety of the Bible. That is why what we believe must make sense of all of it, not just parts.
Of course, but love must care enough for the other person to be walking in the truth, to be able to point out their error, or it isn't love. True, godly love, cares about what people believe to be true about reality and is willing to bring correction. Love is never silent when error is seen.you know from experience these debates never go anywhere, so even if I am your enemy, you are not my enemy, why? Because Jesus words teach me to love even my enemy and people that hate me.
So I have a responsibility to extend love and friendship no matter what the other person does and says.
For the reasons I have given. If I believe Jesus is truly God and man and you deny that he is truly God, then one of us does not have faith in the Jesus of the Bible and is without salvation. That is why it is one of the most serious topics we could possibly discuss. To me, this is a matter of your salvation.
I care deeply about truth and care deeply about others. When I believe others don't believe the truth, even though they think they do, it is incumbent on me, out of love, to point out what I see as error. However, I could be wrong, which is why discussion and debate are needed.
I will keep all your words in mind, but Jesus words are always my Foundation for truth, can we please conclude this conversation?
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We can. I'm just not sure why you posted in a debate on the Trinity but don't want to debate the Trinity. Just remember that the entire Bible are Jesus's words, so to ignore anything difficult for your position, such as in my previous post, will lead you take things out of context.
I know you have said that quite a few times. If that's the key just saying something, your scriptures are being taken out of context, I don't believe that but that seems to be your reasoning point, you keep repeating.
I have been studying this subject since 1980, which scriptures are being taken out of context that I have listed? If you insist on debating endlessly? What more are you trying to accomplish I don't understand please?
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Is it not true that the Bible all of a sudden talks about a different subject, and then again all of a sudden a different subject, it is a natural flow in the Bible to all of a sudden go from subject to subject, what am I doing that is so wrong?
I am just listing a scripture that talks about a specific explanation on a subject.
I am just listing a scripture that talks about a specific explanation on a subject.
Far too often verses are pulled out of scripture as “proof text”. On the surface these verses “make clear” and are “undeniable” claims of one thing or another.
It’s never wise to read scripture superficially or sufacely.
John 17 is very interesting. Most people miss the fact that Jesus is speaking in the third person.
He says:
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Most people don’t speak of themselves in the third person.
If anyone has ever listened to Donald Trump speak, he does it quite often. Much more than most, and more than anyone I know of besides Jesus.
Jesus speaks in the third person often.
Another thing people seem to miss is that the scripture tells us that the Father speaks through His son “in these last days”.
And John says He whom the Father(God) has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give him the Spirit by measure or limit..
So it is the Spirit who is speaking through Jesus. It is the Spirit that had glory with the Father, and it is the Spirit that desires to have that same glory in the son as with the Father.
That's it you got it! So the debates over then? I did exactly what you said with all 16 scriptures, thanks for the correction. Sorry to waste everybody's time and my own.
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I’m not sure how what you say relates to what I said or what your point is.
This is just very poor exegesis. Nowhere does Jesus say that it is the Spirit speaking though him. That would make a right mess of the gospels. We cannot deal so flippantly and recklessly with the Bible.
I will go over my comments and all the scriptures I listed, and take all your words of advice in consideration, I will try to learn from my mistakes and make better choices with my words and better choices of what scriptures I select, thank you for all your assistance and help, I am just trying to make the best decisions and make sense of what the scriptures are saying, thanks again.
Jesus said the words he spoke were not his own. It’s the Father who speaks through him. And the Father speaks through him by His Spirit.
So the Spirit wants the glory He has with the Father to be the same glory in the son.
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Yes, because, as I said, you’re not taking everything into account, by your own admission (remember, you’re trying to play this as a numbers game, which means you’re leaving things out—likely things too difficult for your position to account for). This means all those verses you posted are out of context, which makes it more likely to come to a wrong understanding. Some might make sense in their immediate context, but will contradict the larger context of the books they’re found in as well as other books.
If you’re ignoring parts of Scripture about the nature of God and Jesus, then technically you’re taking them all out of context. John’s prologue is absolutely essential to understanding who Jesus is in the rest of his gospel. Everything that is said about Jesus or is a record of what he says about himself, is based on and cannot contradict what is stated in the first 18 verses.
From beginning to end, John makes it clear that he believes Jesus is the Son of God, being both truly God and truly man. And that is because of what Jesus says about himself. Even the Jews understood that the title Son of God was a claim to deity.
I don’t. You said you didn’t want to debate but you keep responding.
How can it not be clear? I’m trying to get you to take everything that God reveals about himself and Jesus into account, not just 16 verses, which are a drop in the bucket. The doctrine of the Trinity best takes all into account and all unitarian views of God are deficient.
Jesus is either sad or angry that so many multitudes do not even look to Him at all.
The judgment for unbelief is staggering; but is what most receive?
He is a jealous God, for our soul/spirit/ attention. - so much time wasted on valueless things.
Is there a thread or a forum where truth and honesty is required and not silenced ? Where what is false in any area is not permitted to be promoted ?
Greetings Free,
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
The writer to the Hebrews confirms that this is speaking about Jesus:
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now what about the past tense "the glory that I had with you before the world existed". Was Jesus enthroned in glory before creation? Is there any vision of Jesus enthroned with God the Father before creation? The only vision of Jesus in glory is a vision of Jesus exalted after his resurrection, to sit at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
But notice a unique feature of this prophecy. It is written in the past tense, as if God had already spoken to David's Lord and had already invited him to sit at God's right hand. Psalm 8:5 is also written in the past tense as if it had already been accomplished:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Both prophecies were future, but written in the past tense to teach the absolute surety that these would be fulfilled. Jesus takes up the same language - it was the glory that God had promised in anticipation concerning the Messiah.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Kind regards
Trevor
I am not sure if you agree that Psalm 8:4-6 is speaking about Jesus, and a prophecy about the glory that he would receive after his crucifixion, death and resurrection, but I see it necessary to establish this first:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
The writer to the Hebrews confirms that this is speaking about Jesus:
Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now what about the past tense "the glory that I had with you before the world existed". Was Jesus enthroned in glory before creation? Is there any vision of Jesus enthroned with God the Father before creation? The only vision of Jesus in glory is a vision of Jesus exalted after his resurrection, to sit at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
But notice a unique feature of this prophecy. It is written in the past tense, as if God had already spoken to David's Lord and had already invited him to sit at God's right hand. Psalm 8:5 is also written in the past tense as if it had already been accomplished:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Both prophecies were future, but written in the past tense to teach the absolute surety that these would be fulfilled. Jesus takes up the same language - it was the glory that God had promised in anticipation concerning the Messiah.
We have discussed this at length elsewhere. I will hold to "I will be" for Exodus 3:14 (even JWs agree with this). In the same context as John 8:24,58, John 8:28 is strong evidence that Jesus is not claiming to be Deity when he says "I am he".
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Kind regards
Trevor