Tasted Death for every Man !

[setst777]

Oh my! You are saying the exact same thing again. It's impossible for me to see how this could be any clearer:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

A fruit of the Spirit - the Spirit's fruit (that which comes from the Spirit) - is true faith. If you don't have the Sprit, then you can't have true faith either - both occur together and only go with each other. What other faith do you think there can be in addition to, and before that faith? And what would that faith be in if different from the faith the Spirit gives?

If you are not walking in the Spirit, then neither will you have the fruits of the Spirit in your life.

"faithfulness" is one of the many fruits of the Spirit that are only manifest in Christians who have the Spirit living in them by faith, and who WALK in the Spirit.

Here are the fruits of the Spirit listed.

Galatians 5:22-25 (WEB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is

• love,
• joy,
• peace,
• patience,
• kindness,
• goodness,
• faithfulness,
• gentleness,
• self-control.

Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Nothing in "Galatians 5:22-25" is teaching us that the faith to be saved is given to a person; rather, just like the other fruits of the Spirit, these are character traits that we manifest with others while living in this world.

The Scriptures teach us that we are to believe to be saved (John 3:16). The Spirit of God only indwells us by our faith, not so we can believe.

John 7:38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

We pass from Death to Life, which is regeneration, by Faith – not before.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[rogerg]

How would you answer the questions given in "Galatians 3:2" and "Galatians 3:5"?

The Holy Spirit ministers to someone born again through their hearing (spiritual hearing) of Christ's faith to the Father, it is not the faith of a person. Believing in Christ as Saviour is to believe that He was perfectly faithful to the Father. The Holy Spirit gives the ability to hear (comprehend) Christ's faith to those born again. However, for that to happen, they would already have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, otherwise, the Holy Spirit would not minister to them. He doesn't do so for everyone.

This is confirmed by 3:5:

[Gal 3:5 KJV] 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[rogerg]

If you are not walking in the Spirit, then neither will you have the fruits of the Spirit in your life.

No one born again walked in the Spirit before they became born again. If they did, they
wouldn't need to be born again. Being born again is when they become indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
How can anyone walk it the Spirit without already having the Spirit present within them?

 

[setst777]

No one born again walked in the Spirit before they became born again. If they did, they
wouldn't need to be born again. Being born again is when they become indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
How can anyone walk it the Spirit without already having the Spirit present within them?

Exactly. You must be born again by the indwelling Spirit first (Romans 8:9-10).

We only receive the Spirit by faith:

Galatians 3:2 (KJV) 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 7:38-39 (KJV) 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Acts 5:32 (KJV) 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

We pass from Death to Life, which is regeneration, by Faith – not before.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[rogerg]

Exactly. You must be born again by the indwelling Spirit first (Romans 8:9-10).

We only receive the Spirit by faith:

Galatians 3:2 (KJV) 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 7:38-39 (KJV) 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Acts 5:32 (KJV) 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If we can only receive the Spirit by faith, then explain what that faith is in that exists before receiving the Sprit, and what is the difference between that faith and the faith Holy Spirit gives? We cannot have faith before we're given faith. Before being born again we are spiritually dead in sin and unable to comprehend things spiritual to have any faith.
You obviously didn't understand my last reply to you.

Gal 3.2 already answered
John 7:38 - 39 Jesus did not yet complete His mission and so His sacrifice had not been completed. Totally different
situation than afterwards.
Acts 5:32 "hath given". IOW they only obey because they already have the Holy Spirit, not to get the Holy Spirit.

 

[rogerg]

The Spirit does not give faith to be saved. The fruits of the Spirit are character traits, which I have shown you, of which faithfulness (not saving faith) is also listed. In context, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) consist of those noble traits that believers/Christians demonstrate to an unbelieving world what God is like. That is how we let our light shine on the world (Matthew 5:16).
Matthew 5:16 Even so, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

To be born again (regenerate) of the Spirit, you have to believe first, because the Spirit will only indwell those who believe.

I disagree with everything you've posted. The verse clearly states that "faith" is a fruit of the Holy Spirit so it is undeniable. To claim otherwise is absurd because we can see the word's definition below and that faith is used 239 times; faithfulness one time. I'll paste it below. If you read it, you'll see you're wrong. I think you're trying to purposefully distort the meaning of the verse to make it conform to what you'd like it to mean - that is a very bad thing to do, indeed. I'm not going to discuss biblical things with someone who is untrustworthy about the Bible.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But[G1161] the fruit[G2590] of the Spirit[G4151] is[G2076] love,[G26] joy,[G5479] peace,[G1515] longsuffering,[G3115] gentleness,[G5544] goodness,[G19] faith,[G4102]

The KJV translates Strong's G4102 in the following manner: faith (239x), assurance (1x), believe (with G1537) (1x), belief (1x), them that believe (1x), fidelity (1x).

pistis (Key)

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
   1. relating to God
      1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
   2. relating to Christ
      1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
   3. the religious beliefs of Christians
   4. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2. fidelity, faithfulness
   1. the character of one who can be relied on

 

[setst777]

I disagree with everything you've posted. The verse clearly states that "faith" is a fruit of the Holy Spirit so it is undeniable. To claim otherwise is absurd because we can see the word's definition and that faith is used 239 times; faithfulness one time. I'll paste it below. If you read it, you'll see you're wrong. In any case I'm done arguing this with you.

The KJV translates Strong's G4102 in the following manner: faith (239x), assurance (1x), believe (with G1537) (1x), belief (1x), them that believe (1x), fidelity (1x).

pistis (Key)

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
   1. relating to God
      1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
   2. relating to Christ
      1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
   3. the religious beliefs of Christians
   4. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2. fidelity, faithfulness
   1. the character of one who can be relied on

In context the of "Galatians 5:22-23" I see no doubt that either "fidelity" or "faithfulness" would be the correct meaning in context, since faith is one of the character traits of the fruit of the Spirit which believers are instructed to manifest, according to the Apostle Paul.

Galatians 5:16-25 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

I think most commentaries would agree that "faith" in "Galatians 5:22-23" is referring to the Spiritual Fruit of born again believers. The whole chapter of "Galatians 5" is teaching that warns believers to be diligent to walk in the Spirit so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, because those who do such things will be condemned.

In contrast to the bad character traits centered on fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, the Christian is admonished to instead walk in the Spirit, and so manifest the fruit of the Spirit, which are good character traits.

To isolate "faith" out of all the traits listed under "fruit of the Spirit" to and make it to mean that this is faith to be saved is contrary to the whole context, including the list of other traits we are to demonstrate as Christians. Clearly these traits are the fruit of those who already believe, indwelt by the Spirit, and are traits that have to do with our relationship with others while in the world as believers.

I would say that your belief that "faith" in this Passage refers to faith to be saved is misplaced for the reasons given.

And then to outright object to the Scriptures I gave that clearly show that only by believing does the Spirit indwell us is careless in my humble view. As well you outright object the Passages I have quoted for you that show that it is by faith that we are regenerated - from death to life, which is by faith

But I will leave you with your beliefs. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Hopeful 2]

First, Hopeful 2, let's look at the First Book of John's two passages that contain the phrase "the whole world", and this according to the Apostolic testimony of John in Truth (John 14:6):

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

This is the first passage.

John the Apostle also testified:

​

The whole world lies in the evil one.​

(1 John 5:19)​

​

This is the second passage.

The Apostle John testified using Christian writing, and based on context with Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), neither instance of "the whole world" means "all men" (everyone everywhere in all time).

Now, let's examine your testimony.



Let me explain. You see, when you wrote:



Right there, your testified that the unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD is that "any man" in 1 John 2:1, and you accomplished communicating your testimony with a coherent sentence with a specific conclusion, and you successfully posted your testimony to the site which means you successfully testified that the unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD is that "any man" in 1 John 2:1.

Hopeful 2, you successfully testified that according to you Christ failed in His advocacy for the unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD.

The end of your testimony is that Christ fails to propitiate the sins of the hell-bound unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD while that man was alive, so Christ's advocacy failed upon that man's death per your testimony.

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Now, let's look at your testimony above combined with your testimony below.



Since you successfully testified that the unbelieving dead Muslim man is that "any man" of 1 John 2:1-2, then combining that with your testimony of "We must desire advocacy to get advocacy" above, in effect, results in your testimony overriding the Apostle John's testimony into

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, as long as anyone desires Christ's advocacy, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(Hopeful 2)​

​

which is no longer the Apostle John's testimony recorded in 1 John 2:1-2 because your testimony requires the underlined text in the passage thus converting the passage into your own testimony. You just compare and contrast your testimony (your interpretation in blue letters) here with the Apostle John's testimony to see the difference, and here is John's unadulterated Apostolic testimony

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Now, let's further see how your testimony above combines with your testimony below.



You just testified to where your testimony leads "Jesus advocates for all men, all men would be Christians".

You testify again and again that "any man" ("anyone") is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

You testify again and again that "the whole world" is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

Therefore, you testify "all men" are Christians per 1 John 2:1-2, so your testimony is error that fails to match the Word of God.



For your sake, let's drop the word "incapable", so the blue text fully meets your testimony satisfaction.

Your testimony has "the unbelieving dead Muslim man" being a Christian because you testify that

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous whose advocacy failed for the anyone identified as that unbelieving dead Muslim man, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of that unbelieving dead Muslim man who is part of the whole world.​

​

is 1 John 2:1-2, but your testimony is a lie - just compare your testimony in blue text above to John's unadulterated Apostolic testimony below

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Now, let's look at your testimony above combined with your testimony below.



Your testimony of "Jesus does not advocate for those unwilling to be advocated for" is absent from 1 John 2:1-2; therefore, you are adding to Scripture. Just search for the word "unwilling" in:

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

Your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) adds "unwilling" illegally into 1 John 2:1-2.

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!



Your testimony results in Hitler and Mao being Christians because you testify again and again that "any man" ("anyone") is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

You testify again and again that "the whole world" is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

Since Hitler and Mao are part of the "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2 to which you vehemently testify, then you testify Hitler and Mao are Christians per 1 John 2:1-2, so your testimony is error that fails to match the Word of God.



You testified just now "dead unbelievers will not be saved", and this part of your testimony is true. Your testimony there is highly relevant to "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Nonetheless, you extended a tremendous amount of work to testify that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

I thought we were still on "tasted death for EVERY man" ?

 

[rogerg]

In context the of "Galatians 5:22-23" I see no doubt that either "fidelity" or "faithfulness" would be the correct meaning in context, since faith is one of the character traits of the fruit of the Spirit which believers are instructed to manifest, according to the Apostle Paul.

Wat? "you see"? Really? Wrong! And the Bible directly contradicts and invalidates what you think you "see". It alone is the authority - you are not and just because you say it is so, doesn't make it so. You are pretty arrogant to think you can just override the Bible's definition and use of a word, and replace it with one of your own liking, to twist it into what you'd like it to mean rather than of what it actually does mean, for your own particular religious philosophy.
Faith is given as a thing by the Holy Spirit to those born again. Faith is not, as you describe it, (an amorphas), "character trait of the fruit of the Holy Spirit" (whatever that means); instead, faith actually IS one of the Holy Spirit's fruits, not a trait: faith has a spiritual presence; faith itself is not an action, but by its presence it can cause an action to occur; faith is a noun, not a verb. The fruit of faith of the Holy Spirit, was something produced specifically (and solely) by Jesus, not man, and is given to us by His Holy Spirit - it is Jesus's faith given to those born again.
It's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to have meaningful dialogue with you since you insist on callously perverting the word of God.


[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Okay posters, we must move on from the faith discussion, lets please return to the theme of the thread, how that Christ tasted death for every man, and what that means. If any want to discuss faith and its source, please feel free to start a discussion on it. Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Continued from post 2,169



In the following Scripture, we find the Apostle Paul proclaiming that God does force His will on anyone - the exact opposite of what you wrote. A true friend of God acknowledges the exclusive Power of God.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
  ]*]"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

We Christians are saved by God's grace, for God's glory, and we joyfully engage in embrace with our Friend Jesus!



What an insult toward God by a person to reject the Lord God Almighty's precious Word of God:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

No Scripture states man was imparted the ability to free-will choose God.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

What a sinful insult against Christ for the creature to declare that the Grand Creator God is less than the Word of God declaration of the Lord God Almighty being the absolute loving Sovereign, even Sovereign in every aspect of man's salvation (John 1:3, Daniel 4:34-35, Psalm 27:1).[/b}

Kermos, your two posts to me are not posts but two articles.
I'm sorry to say I'll not be responding to such long posts.
There would be too much to say and our fundamental beliefs are extremely far apart....
as your beliefs are to the rest of the Christian world.

I know that it comforts you to believe that John 15 refers to the whole world.
It's interesting how sometimes the reformed will accept the word WORLD to mean world,
but at other times they do not...
For instance John 3:16 states THE WORLD was loved by God, but you do not believe this.

God offers His salvation...
but we must choose God.
This is how salvation happens:

Romans 10:19
19if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Revelation 3:20
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
John 1:12
12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Acts 16:31
31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


PS
I just realized we're also derailing the thread...

 

[GodsGrace]

Pssst...(switch the names around for the right scenario.)

Thanks.
That's what I thought!
Limited Atonement.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You do deny the saving death of Christ, dont you believe people He died for will wind up lost in hell ?

Only the ones who reject Jesus' suffering and death will end up in hell.
Only those who won't turn permanently from sin will end up in hell.
The way out was available to them, but they preferred sin to Government.
The way out of hell, and the second death, is Jesus, who died for all men.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thats where we differ, I believe things happen because of Christs acting, by Him tasting death, He brings many to Glory becoming the Captain of their salvation Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Nothing is said about man acting in this passage, but all Glory to Christs acting, you exalt man, I by the grace of God show how Christ is exalted in peoples salvation.

Did you have the choice to believe as you do ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

First, Hopeful 2, let's look at the First Book of John's two passages that contain the phrase "the whole world", and this according to the Apostolic testimony of John in Truth (John 14:6):

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

This is the first passage.

John the Apostle also testified:

​

The whole world lies in the evil one.​

(1 John 5:19)​

​

This is the second passage.

The Apostle John testified using Christian writing, and based on context with Spiritual Truth (John 14:6), neither instance of "the whole world" means "all men" (everyone everywhere in all time).

Now, let's examine your testimony.



Let me explain. You see, when you wrote:



Right there, your testified that the unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD is that "any man" in 1 John 2:1, and you accomplished communicating your testimony with a coherent sentence with a specific conclusion, and you successfully posted your testimony to the site which means you successfully testified that the unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD is that "any man" in 1 John 2:1.

Hopeful 2, you successfully testified that according to you Christ failed in His advocacy for the unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD.

The end of your testimony is that Christ fails to propitiate the sins of the hell-bound unbelieving dead Muslim man of 1502AD while that man was alive, so Christ's advocacy failed upon that man's death per your testimony.

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Now, let's look at your testimony above combined with your testimony below.



Since you successfully testified that the unbelieving dead Muslim man is that "any man" of 1 John 2:1-2, then combining that with your testimony of "We must desire advocacy to get advocacy" above, in effect, results in your testimony overriding the Apostle John's testimony into

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, as long as anyone desires Christ's advocacy, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(Hopeful 2)​

​

which is no longer the Apostle John's testimony recorded in 1 John 2:1-2 because your testimony requires the underlined text in the passage thus converting the passage into your own testimony. You just compare and contrast your testimony (your interpretation in blue letters) here with the Apostle John's testimony to see the difference, and here is John's unadulterated Apostolic testimony

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Now, let's further see how your testimony above combines with your testimony below.



You just testified to where your testimony leads "Jesus advocates for all men, all men would be Christians".

You testify again and again that "any man" ("anyone") is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

You testify again and again that "the whole world" is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

Therefore, you testify "all men" are Christians per 1 John 2:1-2, so your testimony is error that fails to match the Word of God.



For your sake, let's drop the word "incapable", so the blue text fully meets your testimony satisfaction.

Your testimony has "the unbelieving dead Muslim man" being a Christian because you testify that

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous whose advocacy failed for the anyone identified as that unbelieving dead Muslim man, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of that unbelieving dead Muslim man who is part of the whole world.​

​

is 1 John 2:1-2, but your testimony is a lie - just compare your testimony in blue text above to John's unadulterated Apostolic testimony below

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Now, let's look at your testimony above combined with your testimony below.



Your testimony of "Jesus does not advocate for those unwilling to be advocated for" is absent from 1 John 2:1-2; therefore, you are adding to Scripture. Just search for the word "unwilling" in:

​

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

​

Your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) adds "unwilling" illegally into 1 John 2:1-2.

Your testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!



Your testimony results in Hitler and Mao being Christians because you testify again and again that "any man" ("anyone") is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

You testify again and again that "the whole world" is "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2.

Since Hitler and Mao are part of the "all men" in 1 John 2:1-2 to which you vehemently testify, then you testify Hitler and Mao are Christians per 1 John 2:1-2, so your testimony is error that fails to match the Word of God.



You testified just now "dead unbelievers will not be saved", and this part of your testimony is true. Your testimony there is highly relevant to "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.

Nonetheless, you extended a tremendous amount of work to testify that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are everyone everywhere in all time shows your belief that Christ is a FAILURE.

The Apostle John's and my testimony that the "anyone" and "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2 are exclusively current believers and/or future believers shows our belief that Christ is always a SUCCESS!

Who did Jesus not die for ?

 

[brightfame52]

Only the ones who reject Jesus' suffering and death will end up in hell.
Only those who won't turn permanently from sin will end up in hell.
The way out was available to them, but they preferred sin to Government.
The way out of hell, and the second death, is Jesus, who died for all men.

Okay, you made my point ! You believe people Christ died for wind up in hell for their sins including rejecting Him, hence you dont believe Jesus saves from the sin of rejecting Him, I do, so everyone He tasted death for, He does everything needed, required to bring them to Glory Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[brightfame52]

Did you have the choice to believe as you do ?

Thats another topic, this thread has been showing who they are, when its says He tasted death for every man, and what it means.

 

[Kermos]

The subject is not "you." Firstly, "you" [Greek: este] is a verb. A verb can never stand alone as a subject. Secondly, to say that "you" is a subject does not even make sense in a sentence; for instance:

Ephesians 2:8-10 (WEB) 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this/that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we [believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we [believers] would walk in them.

If "you" was the subject, then "this" and "gift" would be referring back to "you." That does not even make sense:

"This" you is not of yourselves, [you] is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.

How does that make sense???


That is ridiculous.



The pronoun "this" is subjective, in that, it must refer back to the subject of the thought expressed.
The noun "gift" is subjective, in that, it must refer back to the main subject it describes within the thought expressed.

A "subject" is a noun.
A verb cannot be "subject."

However, since there is no main subject noun within "Ephesians 2:8-9," then by default, the pronoun "this" and the noun "gift" must refer back to a verbal concept that acts as a subject noun.

The only verbal concept in "Ephesians 2:8-9" is: "by grace you are saved" that was brought forward from verse 5 as follows:

Ephesians 2:5 (Young's Literal Translation) 5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

That is the verbal concept that is repeated in "Ephesians 2:8" as the main subject for further development in thought.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (WEB)

• for “by grace you have been saved” [sole main subject, neuter singular verbal concept from vs 5]
• through faith [“genitive singular noun” that takes possession of the salvation that is by grace]
• this” [“neuter singular subjective pronoun” referring back to the subject, which is the subjective (the subject) neuter singular verbal concept "by grace you are saved"]
• not of yourselves [in combination with the neuter singular pronoun “this,” is a phrase that can only refer back to "by grace you are saved," because “this” is a “nominative neuter singular pronoun” that matches the verbal concept (nominative neuter singular pronoun).
• [it is] the gift [“nominative neuter singular noun” refers back to the “nominative neuter singular pronoun” “this” and also to the nominative neuter singular verbal concept” "by grace you are saved"]
• of God [genitive noun showing that the gift (of saving grace) is from God],
• not of works, that no one would boast (Faith is never a work. By definition, and by teaching all through the Epistles, faith is never a work; rather, faith stands in opposition to works).

In Review:

• "By grace you have been saved" is a verbal concept, and the subject of Ephesians 2:8-9. It is a verbal concept because it is a complete thought forwarded from verse 5 for further development.
• "Grace" is a dative feminine noun acting as an indirect object within the subject/verbal concept "by grace you have been saved."
• "Faith" (genitive feminine noun) takes possession of the verbal concept "by grace you have been saved."
• A verbal concept is subjective, and is neuter and singular by default, and so, any pronouns or nouns that refer back to it are also subjective, neuter and singular.
• "This (subjective, singular, neuter pronoun), along with “not of yourselves" is a phrase that all refers back to the subjective singular neuter verbal concept "By grace you are saved."
• "The gift" is a subjective neuter singular noun, and so refers back to what that gift is, which is the neuter singular subject "by grace you have been saved." All pronouns and nouns that refer back to the subject must match in grammar because they are referring back to the subject, which is "By grace you are saved."
• "By grace you have been saved" is also the only subject in Ephesians 2:8-9. A pronoun can only refer back the closest subject noun or verbal concept, because the verbal concept acts in place of a subject noun when a subject noun does not exist in the sentence, which is the case in "Ephesians 2:8-9."

Make note of the fact that, regarding salvation, the “gift” of God, according to the teaching of Scripture, refers to “eternal life” and not to “faith” by which we receive eternal life (Romans 6:23; John 3:14-17).

• Romans 6:23 (WEB) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life {{{in}}} Christ Jesus our Lord.
• John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The "Gift of God" is never referred to in Scriptures as "faith" by which God saves us.

A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar, so your grammar is illegal.

A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence's verb can concretely indicate the sentence's subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.

In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong's 1510 - εἰμί - eimi - am, are, is) translates to the English verb "are", and we know ἐστε equals "are" because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, "you", and plural, "you"; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence's subject noun "you" for this sentence:

For by grace you are saved through faith
(Ephesians 2:8)
​

The English word "you" is concretely the subject.

Since the basis of your post opens with your illegal grammar for Ephesians 2:8, then the balance of your post fails to explain Ephesians 2:8-10 in Truth (John 14:6).

The True Grammar In Ephesians 2:8​

The Apostle Paul wrote:

"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
​

In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of "by grace you have been saved" in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8.

Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let's look at these seven words, at constructs such as case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:

• grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
• you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and "you" is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb "are".
• are - verb - is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
• saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
• faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
• and - conjunction
• that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
• yourselves - personal pronoun - genitive in the second person with plural count.
• God - noun - genitive/masculine/singular
• gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular

Since both "you" and "yourselves" are second person and plural count, then the word "yourselves" refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of "you"; therefore, the word "that" arbitrates the thing that is "not of yourselves" as well as "the gift of God".

Continued to post 2,239

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post 2,238

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8.

1. by grace you are saved through faith
   [*[and that not of yourselves
2. it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• ”grace” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
• ”saved” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
• ”faith” is not a work of man while being the gift of God

in his writing of

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.

Your personally created non-Greek grammar is illegal Greek grammar and thoroughly confused grammar regarding Ephesians 2:8-10.

Christ's words recorded in John 6:29 are not dependent upon Ephesians 2:8-10.

Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-10 is in accord with Christ's words "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so Paul's writing is dependent upon the Word of God.

Your explanation omits critical parts of the grammatical construction of the Apostle Paul's linguistics, so your explanation uses illegal grammar; in other words, your exclusion of "faith" from "gift" uses illegal grammar, and your free-willian adulteration is clearly evident by comparing and contrasting your personal grammar to proper Greek grammar illustrated in this section.

PAUL THE APOSTLE repeats his declaration of Ephesians 2:8 when in Ephesians 2:10 Paul wrote "we are His work", so we Christians are the work of God (see John 6:29) which includes our faith/belief - we are God's exclusively by God's grace for God's glory - PRAISE BE TO GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!

Please see Post 5 of 5.

Faith/Belief is the work of God (John 6:29) because the Word of God wonderfully declares the glory of God with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)!

 

[brightfame52]

Continued from post 2,238

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8.

1. by grace you are saved through faith
   [*[and that not of yourselves
2. it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• ”grace” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
• ”saved” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
• ”faith” is not a work of man while being the gift of God

in his writing of

​

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.

Your personally created non-Greek grammar is illegal Greek grammar and thoroughly confused grammar regarding Ephesians 2:8-10.

Christ's words recorded in John 6:29 are not dependent upon Ephesians 2:8-10.

Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-10 is in accord with Christ's words "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so Paul's writing is dependent upon the Word of God.

Your explanation omits critical parts of the grammatical construction of the Apostle Paul's linguistics, so your explanation uses illegal grammar; in other words, your exclusion of "faith" from "gift" uses illegal grammar, and your free-willian adulteration is clearly evident by comparing and contrasting your personal grammar to proper Greek grammar illustrated in this section.

PAUL THE APOSTLE repeats his declaration of Ephesians 2:8 when in Ephesians 2:10 Paul wrote "we are His work", so we Christians are the work of God (see John 6:29) which includes our faith/belief - we are God's exclusively by God's grace for God's glory - PRAISE BE TO GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!

Please see Post 5 of 5.

Faith/Belief is the work of God (John 6:29) because the Word of God wonderfully declares the glory of God with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)!

All that confirms that Christians believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

And of course Grace is not of ourselves!