Tasted Death for every Man !

[brightfame52]

I chose life of my own free will. You have as well if you are in Christ.

This is your belief. I don't agree.
God predestined everyone else who is not elect to be eternally condemned.

I dont care what you did, means absolute nothing here, take your self boasting somewhere else, this is about what Christ did, He tasted death, not you, and as a result of His tasting death He brings many to Glory, the many He tasted death for.

 

[Randy]

Changes nothing, those who Christ died for shall be brought to Glory Heb 2:9-10

I guess its not blasphemy then.

 

[brightfame52]

Calvinism must consider the gospel message a formality since they believe they have no other outcome but salvation.

A formality is something that follows traditional rules. Even though you knew your request for time off at work would be approved, you still went through the formality of filling out all the required paperwork

Heb 2:9-10 is a Gospel Message, it proclaims the Person and Work of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished and for whom He accomplished it.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus stated His desire vs their will
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate

No, Jesus didn't state that. Those verses are speaking about the Jewish religious establishment (the "house" of Judaism), not the salvation of individual people. The Jews as a religious organization - or house - would not permit nor recognize God's true law, the law of Christ, to reign. God therefore took its role away from it. The "house" was therefore left desolate because salvation would never be through it. Instead, salvation would/could only be through/by Christ alone.
The word "house" is not representative of individuals.

[Mat 23:38 KJV] 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[TahitiRun]

I read it.

Hebrews 2:9 Greek Text Analysis

You weren't really given a satisfactory answer so I'll see if I can help out.

The reason Heb 2:9 reads "might taste" or "should taste" death for every one is that the Gk. verb "γεύσηται", translated as "taste", is being used in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood, as you might already know, is a mood of probability regarding a verbal action that may or may not occur, and generally it's expressed as "might", "should", "could", etc.

However, in this particular case the verb "γεύσηται" is being used within a purpose clause. The purpose clause states the reason why something is done. In our case, the start of the purpose clause is signaled by the Gk. term "οπως" (translated as "that") and works like a conjunction between the two clauses. It's purpose is to give the reason why Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.

What makes this of particular interest is that although the verb "γεύσηται" is in the subjunctive mood, it's probability of accomplishment is 100%. The reason for this is that in Jewish thought, divine purpose and result are always identical, as it is here, stated: "by the grace of God". In other words, what God wants, God gets.

Heb 2:9 and him who was made some little less than messengers we see—Jesus—because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.

So, the short answer is: Yes, Jesus tasted death for everyone, and He did so by the grace of God.

Hope this helps. If not, feel free to delete.

 

[Randy]

I dont care what you did, means absolute nothing here, take your self boasting somewhere else, this is about what Christ did, He tasted death, not you, and as a result of His tasting death He brings many to Glory, the many He tasted death for.

Its about Gods love for ALL.


You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Randy]

No, Jesus didn't state that. Those verses are speaking about the Jewish religious establishment (the "house" of Judaism), not the salvation of individual people. The Jews as a religious organization - or house - would not permit nor recognize God's true law, the law of Christ, to reign. God therefore took its role away from it. The "house" was therefore left desolate because salvation would never be through it. Instead, salvation would/could only be through/by Christ alone.
The word "house" is not representative of individuals.

[Mat 23:38 KJV] 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly Jesus was willing they were not willing. The consequences of their rejection is their house is left desolate.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

 

[rogerg]

You weren't really given a satisfactory answer so I'll see if I can help out.

The reason Heb 2:9 reads "might taste" or "should taste" death for every one is that the Gk. verb "γεύσηται", translated as "taste", is being used in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood, as you might already know, is a mood of probability regarding a verbal action that may or may not occur, and generally it's expressed as "might", "should", "could", etc.

However, in this particular case the verb "γεύσηται" is being used within a purpose clause. The purpose clause states the reason why something is done. In our case, the start of the purpose clause is signaled by the Gk. term "οπως" (translated as "that") and works like a conjunction between the two clauses. It's purpose is to give the reason why Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.

What makes this of particular interest is that although the verb "γεύσηται" is in the subjunctive mood, it's probability of accomplishment is 100%. The reason for this is that in Jewish thought, divine purpose and result are always identical, as it is here, stated: "by the grace of God". In other words, what God wants, God gets.

Heb 2:9 and him who was made some little less than messengers we see—Jesus—because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.

So, the short answer is: Yes, Jesus tasted death for everyone, and He did so by the grace of God.

Hope this helps. If not, feel free to delete.

But you didn't answer it either. It is "everyone", but "everyone" of whom? That is answered by 2:10 with " bringing many sons to glory", but it is not everyone every born - only of those so chosen by God to be covered by the blood of Christ, which only are the "many sons".

 

[TahitiRun]

But you didn't answer it either. It is "everyone", but "everyone" of whom? That is answered by 2:10 with " bringing many sons to glory", but it is not everyone every born - only of those so chosen by God to be covered by the blood of Christ, which only are the "many sons".

I actually did in a previous post. So I won't re-post it. The context is found in Heb. 2:8.

The many sons brought to glory that we "now see" (v.9) concerning Jesus' death do not limit "what we do not see yet", as stated in v.8.

Jesus' accomplishments, as yet, still have more to be seen.

 

[rogerg]

Clearly Jesus was willing they were not willing. The consequences of their rejection is their house is left desolate.

It "clearly" isn't, and you make incorrect assumptions by stating so when it
is not correct. God said "house" and He meant house. The HOUSE was left desolate, those chosen for salvation were still saved but not through that house. Were no Jews ever saved again, because that is what your interpretation would mean. If they were saved, was it through Judaism or through Christ and Christianity? If Christ and Christianity, then "house" being Judaism, must be intention of those verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

No such thing as people not letting God do something, thats Blasphemy friend, and again:

Christ saves the person, their will is included. When Christ saves a person He saves them from their sinful will, heart, He makes them anew !

This is your idea because you don't believe in the free will God gave to you.

After all, He did make you in His image.

God does not force anyone to love Him.

Forced love is not true love.

We love because He first loved us.

BECAUSE He first loved us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heb 2:9-10 is a Gospel Message, it proclaims the Person and Work of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished and for whom He accomplished it.

You never explained the conflict your theology causes between verses 9 and 10.

Because you can't.

 

[rogerg]

I actually did in a previous post. So I won't re-post it. The context is found in Heb. 2:8.

The many sons brought to glory that we "now see" (v.9) concerning Jesus' death do not limit "what we do not see yet", as stated in v.8.

Jesus' accomplishments, as yet, still have more to be seen.

I don't think 2:8 pertains to 2: 9 through the remainder of the chapter. 2:9 through the end is speaking about those
chosen by God, which is not everyone. 2:9 is connected to 2:10 and verses beyond through the "for". There is no such connection between 2:8 and 2:9.

 

[TahitiRun]

I dont care what you did, means absolute nothing here, take your self boasting somewhere else...

Wow, that's a really harsh way to answer someone as a moderator. Isn't this forum about the exchange of ideas?

 

[TahitiRun]

I don't think 2:8 pertains to 2: 9 through the remainder of the chapter. 2:9 through the end is speaking about those
chosen by God, which is not everyone. 2:9 is connected to 2:10 and verses beyond through the "for". There is no such connection between 2:8 and 2:9.

That's not really true. Heb 2:8 is directly linked to Heb 2:9 by the use of the conjunction "δε" that is proceeded by the article. It's also being used in an adversative manner on the heels of "the all things we do not yet see". We only now see (present/indicative) a glimpse, if you will, concerning the fullness of Christ's atonement.

Heb 2:9 τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾿ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν ᾿Ιησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον, ὅπως χάριτι Θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου.

 

[TahitiRun]

Its about Gods love for ALL.

It really is. Blessings to you in Christ.

 

[TahitiRun]

I'm somewhat new here and I noticed that this particular forum is within an "autonomous zone". What is an autonomous forum zone? Does it function similar to a geopolitical area, say how Hong Kong functioned before 1997? I really miss old Hong Kong...lol

IOW: are there things that can and cannot be discussed, here?

I googled the term and couldn't really determine how it functions differently from that of a non-autonomous forum zone.

 

[rogerg]

That's not really true. Heb 2:8 is directly linked to Heb 2:9 by the use of the conjunction "δε" that is proceeded by the article. It's also being used in an adversative manner on the heels of "the all things we do not yet see". We only now see (present/indicative) a glimpse, if you will, concerning the fullness of Christ's atonement.

Heb 2:9 τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾿ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν ᾿Ιησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον, ὅπως χάριτι Θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου.

Okay, not being fluent in Greek, I won't debate with you about that, but nevertheless, it does not change the fact that "many sons' of 2:10, informs as to who the "everyone" of 2:9 is - your post does not alter that. This is further explained in verses from 2:10 onwards, most notably is in 2:11, where we are told that it is He who sanctifies, and that they who are sanctified, are all of one - and it is only those sanctified by Christ who are His brethren, and in 2:13, that only those whom God has given to Him, they alone are His children. Therefore, obviously, not everyone ever born is/will be included within those because not everyone will be saved. Further, in 10:14, it is stated that only those whom Christ sanctifies are they who are perfected forever by Him - meaning that sanctification is part of salvation. Those things not yet put under Him, represents the actual unfolding of His revealed gospel, which unfolding has yet to transpire completely, but it is not of new additions to, nor changes of, that gospel.

[Heb 2:11 KJV] 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

[Heb 2:13 KJV] 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

[Heb 10:14 KJV] 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[TahitiRun]

Okay, not being fluent in Greek, I won't debate with you about that, but nevertheless, it does not change the fact that "many sons' of 2:10, informs as to who the "everyone" of 2:9 is - your post does not alter that. This is further explained in verses from 2:10 onwards, most notably is in 2:11, where we are told that it is He who sanctifies, and that they who are sanctified, are all of one - and it is only those sanctified by Christ who are His brethren, and in 2:13, that only those whom God has given to Him, they alone are His children. Therefore, obviously, not everyone ever born is/will be included within those because not everyone will be saved. Further, in 10:14, it is stated that only those whom Christ sanctifies are they who are perfected forever by Him - meaning that sanctification is part of salvation. Those things not yet put under Him, represents the actual unfolding of His revealed gospel, which unfolding has yet to transpire completely, but it is not of new additions to, nor changes of, that gospel.

[Heb 2:11 KJV] 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

[Heb 2:13 KJV] 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

[Heb 10:14 KJV] 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The "many sons" brought to glory are included in what we "now see" Jesus' death has accomplished. However, my point is that what we "now see" does not restrict what we "do not yet see". Let's read the full context, here:

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Not everything is (the all things of v.8, and without exception), as yet, seen as being in subjection to Christ: "those sons brought to glory".

That was the point I tried to make. I do appreciate reading your views on this too. I don't really have much else to add. We might just need to disagree.

I think it's helpful though for other's to see differing view points. Particularly with regards to Calvinism. At some point, most of us find ourselves in various stages of spiritual growth wherein we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). Sometimes simply being exposed to other views expressed can help achieve this.

 

[brightfame52]

No, Jesus didn't state that. Those verses are speaking about the Jewish religious establishment (the "house" of Judaism), not the salvation of individual people. The Jews as a religious organization - or house - would not permit nor recognize God's true law, the law of Christ, to reign. God therefore took its role away from it. The "house" was therefore left desolate because salvation would never be through it. Instead, salvation would/could only be through/by Christ alone.
The word "house" is not representative of individuals.

[Mat 23:38 KJV] 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I dont believe that passage has anything to do with salvation. Heb 2:9-10 has to do with salvation, them He tasted death for, constituted Him the Captain of their Salvation

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.