Tasted Death for every Man !

[Butch5]

Yeah its about the Elect, so is Ps 8. Back in Heb 2:6 the word for visiteth

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

Its the greek word episkeptomai and it actually means, to choose or to select like in Election. Its used in Acts 6

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them NIV

Actually it means to look upon or look after. Eklektos or Eklegomai are the Greek words for choose.

 

[brightfame52]

Every man born has borne the image of Adam. Adam represents all of mankind. Not sure what your point was there. It seems to me that you're associating one being a son of God with one being saved, or of the elect. If that is the case, you need to establish that because Paul also called the unbelieving Greeks children of God.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. (Acts 17:22-29 KJV)

God also said that Israel was His son.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

Surely not everyone in these two groups were saved. So, we see that not everyone who is called a son of God is someone who is or will be saved.

I don't believe Adam represented all mankind, but only the Church the Body of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Actually it means to look upon or look after. Eklektos or Eklegomai are the Greek words for choose.

I know what the word means. I just shared it.

 

[jaybo]

Hi Roger,

Neither of these passages mention a "spiritual" seed of Abraham either. I find that people tend to use the word spiritual without actually defining what they mean. It's been my experience that this is one of the most misunderstood of Christian words.

The New Jerusalem is said to come down out of Heaven. It's a picture of the restored Jerusalem. It is the Jerusalem that exists now that will be restored when Christ returns. It will he inhabited by physically alive people.

The spiritual seed of Abraham are those that had/have the same faith as he had.

So what does "spiritual" mean, according to you?

Also, the Jerusalem that will come down from Heaven is most definitely not the Jerusalem that exists now, even in a restored state. Read Revelation and tell me that the city that is described bears even a remote resemblance to the Jerusalem of 2021.

 

[jaybo]

I don't believe Adam represented all mankind, but only the Church the Body of Christ.

So what are the rest of mankind if not descended from Adam? He brought sin into the world and all his descendants are sinners.

 

[Butch5]

I don't believe Adam represented all mankind, but only the Church the Body of Christ.

But what you believe has no bearing on what it says. Unless you can establish with a sound argument that Adam only represents the Body of Christ you're simply speculating. If you want people to accept what you say you're going to have to give more than, "I believe".

 

[Butch5]

The spiritual seed of Abraham are those that had/have the same faith as he had.

So what does "spiritual" mean, according to you?

Also, the Jerusalem that will come down from Heaven is most definitely not the Jerusalem that exists now, even in a restored state. Read Revelation and tell me that the city that is described bears even a remote resemblance to the Jerusalem of 2021.

OK, we have your opinion of what a spiritual seed is. Can you establish it from Scripture.

Spiritual is the adjectival form of spirit which means wind or breath. Spirit is a figurative useage of the Greek words Pneuma and Noe and the Hebrew words Ruach and Neshamah.

Revelation is a book filled with symbolism. Are you suggesting that a city is literally going to come down out of the sky?

Peter tells us that the creation will be restored.

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21 KJV)

That means that Jerusalem will also be restored. Would suggest that there will be two Jerusalems?

Paul tells us,

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom. 8:18-21 KJV)

Here Paul tells us that the creation, which was subjected to bondage, shall be delivered from bondage to the children of God. So, this creation will be set free from the curse and delivered to the children of God.

Isaiah tells us that God is going to create a new or renewed heaven and earth.

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. (Isa. 65:17-25 KJV)

Notice, after God speaks of creating Jerusalem, He says the voice of weeping and crying will be heard in her no more. That implies that prior to this, the sound of weeping and crying is heard in Jerusalem. Today weeping and crying are heard in Jerusalem. However, God says a day is coming when these will no longer be heard in her. He says that in conjunction with the new or restored Jerusalem, thus they are one and the same. John writes in Revelation,

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev. 21:1-5 KJV)

Notice here that John sees what Isaiah prophesied. God will wipe away their tears. There will be no more sorrow or crying. That's what we saw in Isaiah. We saw the new heaven and new earth in Isaiah. And, we saw a new Jerusalem in Isaiah, and he said there would be no more crying in it. This indicates that it is the current Jerusalem restored.

 

[brightfame52]

So what are the rest of mankind if not descended from Adam? He brought sin into the world and all his descendants are sinners.

The rest of mankind are the children of the devil. God said plainly he has a seed/offspring Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And I will put enmity (open hostility) Between you and the woman, And between your seed (offspring) and her Seed; He shall [fatally] bruise your head, And you shall [only] bruise His heel.”AMP

1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

Now the children of the devil are also physical descendants of Adam. But they didnt sin in Adam, only the Sons of God did.

 

[brightfame52]

But what you believe has no bearing on what it says. Unless you can establish with a sound argument that Adam only represents the Body of Christ you're simply speculating. If you want people to accept what you say you're going to have to give more than, "I believe".

What I believe has bearing on what I witness to as to what the scripture says. The whole context of Heb 2 is about the Elect children of God, not the reprobated. The World was Created for the Elect under the Headship of Christ, thats why Heb 2:8 says

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This is talking about Jesus !

 

[rogerg]

When we understand the context of Paul's argument that people aren't saved by works, and that he is referring to the Mosaic Law, everything fits together. However, when we say that he meant nothing a person does plays a role in their salvation we start running into problems with passages such as this one above.

Butch5.
Boy oh boy, I've been having trouble posting a reply to you that I worked on for your prior reply, but due to its size it appears that part of it made it, but the remainder was rejected . So, if you see the same reply from me several times, please ignore them. Sorry for any confusion this caused. Anyway

First a question: if you believe man must contribute to his salvation, then exactly which laws or actions do you believe he must he satisfy in order to do that?

Second, in regards to a man's contribution, have you considered:

[Heb 7:22-26 KJV] 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

uttermost:

1. all complete, perfect
2. completely, perfectly, utterly

Sorry I was not able to post my full reply as it went through your reply point by point, so it's extremely annoying that I couldn't.

 

[rogerg]

That means that Jerusalem will also be restored. Would suggest that there will be two Jerusalems?

One Jerusalem: the current Jerusalem (earthly) will be destroyed as you mentioned, the new Jerusalem(spiritual) to replace it: the earthly Jerusalem as a part of the current heavens and earth will be destroyed along with them.
Respectfully, I believe that doctrine to be the crux of the Gospel -- that earthly Israel, Jews, etc, were to serve as a model (that was the whole purpose of the earthly Israel), for the spiritual Israel to come, an Israel that is to occupy the new earth after this earth is destroyed. The earthly Jews didn't live up to the agreement they made with God, so He divorced them and terminated the agreement due to their spiritual infidelity.

This indicates that it is the current Jerusalem restored.

Depends what you mean by "restored" - not the current one. They will be completely new: a new earth, a new Israel, a new Jerusalem, and new "Jews" to inhabit them: those who will be given the title Jew, who are the true Jews, the elect chosen by God and by His good pleasure, having taken them out of all earthly peoples and kingdoms.
The earthly Israel was made to be a likeness or a pattern of the heavenly but it is NOT the true.

[Heb 8:4-5 KJV]
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5.
Boy oh boy, I've been having trouble posting a reply to you that I worked on for your prior reply, but due to its size it appears that part of it made it, but the remainder was rejected . So, if you see the same reply from me several times, please ignore them. Sorry for any confusion this caused. Anyway

First a question: if you believe man must contribute to his salvation, then exactly which laws or actions do you believe he must he satisfy in order to do that?

Second, in regards to a man's contribution, have you considered:

[Heb 7:22-26 KJV] 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

uttermost:

1. all complete, perfect
2. completely, perfectly, utterly

Sorry I was not able to post my full reply as it went through your reply point by point, so it's extremely annoying that I couldn't.

Hi Roger,

Firstly, I don't know that I would use the word contribute. However, there are things that one must do. For instance, Jesus said to His disciples, if you don't forgive others their sins, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your sins. Are we to assume that that statement only applied to the apostles? Are we to say well, they could have lost salvation, but everyone else can't? If they wanted their sins forgiven, they had to forgive others. Without one's sins being forgiven there is no salvation. So, they had to do something. Jesus told his followers that they had to keep His commands. So, there are things that have to be done.

I'm not sure where you're going with Hebrews 7. Jesus saving to the utmost has no bearing on what we have to do.

If your reply won't post you're welcome to email it to me.

 

[Butch5]

One Jerusalem: the current Jerusalem (earthly) will be destroyed as you mentioned, the new Jerusalem(spiritual) to replace it: the earthly Jerusalem as a part of the current heavens and earth will be destroyed along with them.
Respectfully, I believe that doctrine to be the crux of the Gospel -- that earthly Israel, Jews, etc, were to serve as a model (that was the whole purpose of the earthly Israel), for the spiritual Israel to come, an Israel that is to occupy the new earth after this earth is destroyed. The earthly Jews didn't live up to the agreement they made with God, so He divorced them and terminated the agreement due to their spiritual infidelity.



Depends what you mean by "restored" - not the current one. They will be completely new: a new earth, a new Israel, a new Jerusalem, and new "Jews" to inhabit them: those who will be given the title Jew, who are the true Jews, the elect chosen by God and by His good pleasure, having taken them out of all earthly peoples and kingdoms.
The earthly Israel was made to be a likeness or a pattern of the heavenly but it is NOT the true.

[Heb 8:4-5 KJV]
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

What is a "spiritual" Jerusalem? The spirit is a figure of speech for the Greek and Hebrew words for wind or breath. Spiritual is an adjective, it gives qualities of something to the noun it's modifying, in this case Jerusalem. What are the wind or breath qualities that are being attributed to Jerusalem in your term "spiritual" Jerusalem.

It's not that God is going to destroy and create a new, different, heaven and earth. He is going to renew this one. John writes in Revelation,

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(Rev. 21:1-5 KJV)

Notice He said, "I make all things new". He didn't say I make all new things. What is existing is going to be made new. It's going to be restored.

God promised the promise land to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Christ. That is their inheritance. How would they inherit the promise if God destroyed it all? God told Abraham, that all of the land he could see. God would give it to him. If God destroys it then He can't give it to Abraham.

As I said in the post to Jaybo, Paul writes of the creation being delivered from bondage and given to the children of God. That can't happen if it's destroyed. Peter writes of the restoration of all things. That can't happen if it's destroyed. The new heaven and new earth aren't different ones, they're the present ones renewed.

 

[Butch5]

What I believe has bearing on what I witness to as to what the scripture says. The whole context of Heb 2 is about the Elect children of God, not the reprobated. The World was Created for the Elect under the Headship of Christ, thats why Heb 2:8 says

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This is talking about Jesus !

Well, if you're going to witness what Scripture says to other people is there anything on earth more important than making absolutely certain that what you say is correct?

No, the passage isn't talking about Jesus. It's talking about man.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(Heb. 2:5-9 KJV)

God didn't put the world in subjection to angels, He put it in subjection to man. We see that back in Genesis.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26 KJV)

God put every earthly thing under man's dominion and man messed it up. That's why Paul says that we do not yet see all things put under him. Adam sinned and lost his dominion. But after saying all of that Paul holds out hope, saying be we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels. So, man was made a little lower than the angels to oversee creation. He messed up so God sent Jesus and made Him a little lower than the angels also. He made Him a man, so that He could fix what Adam had messed up. So, that man would have dominion over the creation.

 

[jaybo]

The rest of mankind are the children of the devil. God said plainly he has a seed/offspring Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And I will put enmity (open hostility) Between you and the woman, And between your seed (offspring) and her Seed; He shall [fatally] bruise your head, And you shall [only] bruise His heel.”AMP

1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

Now the children of the devil are also physical descendants of Adam. But they didnt sin in Adam, only the Sons of God did.

Your interpretation of Scripture is bizarre. Since when did serpents become humans?

Here is something for you to contemplate...

Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

there are things that one must do. For instance, Jesus said to His disciples, if you don't forgive others their sins, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your sins.

Question: Are you saying that if a Christian does not forgive someone, that Christian (maybe Christians is not the best term) sins will not be forgiven?
If "Yes" ...

1. do Christians who never forgive another (maybe Christians is not the best term) go to hell?
2. is the forgiveness time sensitive? ... by this I mean, one is not forgiven by God until one forgives someone at which time God will forgive that person .... or does God neither forgive the person even if later person later forgives the guy to needed forgiveness
3. Is forgiving someone a work? (a work is something one must do to be saved ... or do you have another definition)

 

[Butch5]

Question: Are you saying that if a Christian does not forgive someone, that Christian (maybe Christians is not the best term) sins will not be forgiven?
If "Yes" ...

1. do Christians who never forgive another (maybe Christians is not the best term) go to hell?
2. is the forgiveness time sensitive? ... by this I mean, one is not forgiven by God until one forgives someone at which time God will forgive that person .... or does God neither forgive the person even if later person later forgives the guy to needed forgiveness
3. Is forgiving someone a work? (a work is something one must do to be saved ... or do you have another definition)

Here's what Jesus said,

14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt. 6:14-15 NKJ)

It seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It seems pretty straight forward to me.

You didn't answer any of my questions. (Not that you are obligated to).

 

[Butch5]

You didn't answer any of my questions. (Not that you are obligated to).

No, I didn't. Those questions are up to God, not me. I guess everyone will have to approach God for those answers. Maybe one could find the answers somewhere in Scripture.

 

[jaybo]

Question: Are you saying that if a Christian does not forgive someone, that Christian (maybe Christians is not the best term) sins will not be forgiven?
If "Yes" ...

1. do Christians who never forgive another (maybe Christians is not the best term) go to hell?
2. is the forgiveness time sensitive? ... by this I mean, one is not forgiven by God until one forgives someone at which time God will forgive that person .... or does God neither forgive the person even if later person later forgives the guy to needed forgiveness
3. Is forgiving someone a work? (a work is something one must do to be saved ... or do you have another definition)

Christians are guided by the (internal) Holy Spirit not by the (external) law. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. There are uncountable situations in which people find themselves for which there is no straightforward answer.

Jesus was asked difficult questions many times by the Pharisees in an effort to trick Him (unsuccessfully). He also taught by using parables, for which there are no "straight answers".