Tasted Death for every Man !

[Fastfredy0]

No, I didn't. Those questions are up to God, not me. I guess everyone will have to approach God for those answers. Maybe one could find the answers somewhere in Scripture.

Yeah, the logical consequences the statement "that God does not forgive those who don't forgive others" can lead to quite ugly (I would say contradictory) interpretations of Matt. 6:14-15. You implied the road (interpretation) you supported but quickly retreated from the implications of that interpretation with the "it's a mystery explanation".

Aside: The verses are not my favorites as I too don't like the possibilities of what one particular interpretation might lead to. Scripture interprets scripture they say.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, the logical consequences the statement "that God does not forgive those who don't forgive others" can lead to quite ugly (I would say contradictory) interpretations of Matt. 6:14-15. You implied the road (interpretation) you supported but quickly retreated from the implications of that interpretation with the "it's a mystery explanation".

Aside: The verses are not my favorites as I too don't like the possibilities of what one particular interpretation might lead to. Scripture interprets scripture they say.

I didn't retreat from anything. The statement doesn't give degrees of forgiveness. It simply says forgive. If I made any kind of claim it would be mere speculation. I can't help it if people don't like the implications, I didn't say it Jesus did.

Back in Jesus day there were a lot of people who didn't like the implications of what He said. They accused Him of blasphemy quite a few times because of it. I think part of the problem today is that people want a watered down sugar coated version of the Gospel. Jesus didn't give that.

Scripture interprets Scripture is actually a logical fallacy. Scripture can't interpret.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Christians are guided by the (internal) Holy Spirit not by the (external) law.

Agreed

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.

If by "all truth" you mean every truth without exception, then we have a contradiction. (Deut. 29:29)

There are uncountable situations in which people find themselves for which there is no straightforward answer.

Agreed ... and sometimes one's doctrine contradicts that a straight forward answer, so the straight forward answer is discarded. (but we are throwing out generalities)

Jesus was asked difficult questions many times by the Pharisees in an effort to trick Him (unsuccessfully).

Agreed

He [Jesus] also taught by using parables, for which there are no "straight answers".

I think Jesus spoke in parables to hide the "straight answers"; not necessarily because there were no "straight answers". Matt 13:10-16

 

[Fastfredy0]

Christians are guided by the (internal) Holy Spirit not by the (external) law.

Agreed

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth.

If by "all truth" you mean every truth without exception, then we have a contradiction. (Deut. 29:29)

There are uncountable situations in which people find themselves for which there is no straightforward answer.

Agreed ... and sometimes one's doctrine contradicts that a straight forward answer, so the straight forward answer is discarded. (but we are throwing out generalities)

Jesus was asked difficult questions many times by the Pharisees in an effort to trick Him (unsuccessfully).

Agreed

He [Jesus] also taught by using parables, for which there are no "straight answers".

I think Jesus spoke in parables to hide the "straight answers".

 

[daninthelionsden]

Question: Are you saying that if a Christian does not forgive someone, that Christian (maybe Christians is not the best term) sins will not be forgiven?
If "Yes" ...

1. do Christians who never forgive another (maybe Christians is not the best term) go to hell?
2. is the forgiveness time sensitive? ... by this I mean, one is not forgiven by God until one forgives someone at which time God will forgive that person .... or does God neither forgive the person even if later person later forgives the guy to needed forgiveness
3. Is forgiving someone a work? (a work is something one must do to be saved ... or do you have another definition)

The way I understand it is that forgiveness means we no longer hold them in debt to us on any level. We cannot mean them harm in any thought/word/deed. That does not mean we have to continue a relationship with them. It just means we release them so we can be released by God.

 

[rogerg]

Hi Roger,

Firstly, I don't know that I would use the word contribute. However, there are things that one must do. For instance, Jesus said to His disciples, if you don't forgive others their sins, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your sins. Are we to assume that that statement only applied to the apostles? Are we to say well, they could have lost salvation, but everyone else can't? If they wanted their sins forgiven, they had to forgive others. Without one's sins being forgiven there is no salvation. So, they had to do something. Jesus told his followers that they had to keep His commands. So, there are things that have to be done.

I'm not sure where you're going with Hebrews 7. Jesus saving to the utmost has no bearing on what we have to do.

If your reply won't post you're welcome to email it to me.

HI Butch,

Thanks for your reply

I think in your example, Jesus was identifying and teaching an attribute of those who have become born again; that is, they who have been born again, will willingly forgive the sin of others because they have a fundamental knowledge of Gospel of Christ, and that Christ forgave them too. If someone doesn't do that, it is a warning they haven't been born again yet and could eventually face judgment.
I think it is only those born again who take that admonition and other biblical admonitions to heart and respond; those not born again don't care and ignore it. So, Jesus in effect, was actually identifying a spiritual state of being of an individual. Also, (and I almost don't want to get into it right now), but I've noticed the word "men" in the verse. "Men" is sometimes used symbolically in the Bible to denote Christians. So with "men" being in that verse, its object could be focusing on the forgiving of one Christians to another; "beast" is sometimes symbolically used to denote the unsaved.
There are a lot of other admonitions from God regarding how a born again believer is to act: it is the the gaining of spiritual knowledge given by the Holy Spirit- that's how it becomes manifested within them. But, not until becoming born again do they experience a "renewing" of the mind (an after effect of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit), by which, they ponder it, see/realize its wisdom, and truly desire in their receptive heart of hearts to conform to it. A born again believer doesn't just wake up one morning knowing all doctrine.
So, if someone claims to be a Christian, yet refuses to forgive -- especially other Christians, they prove they are not yet saved and still under law to be judged for their sin. If they are not of the Elect, they probably won't care or will misunderstand.

[Col 3:10-14 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.
14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

[Phl 2:13-15 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I think that Hebrews 7:25 is informing that Christ has already accomplished everything (the uttermost) to save those he has chosen to save. Nothing else should be attempted by us to enhance it because it is already fully complete in itself. To do otherwise is to call God a liar.

If, as I think you and others believe, Christ's payment for sin (by His offering) pertains to all mankind not just the elect, and that other actions by us are still required to realize/receive salvation, then, logically speaking, ( and with which I totally and completely disagree), Christ's offering, in and of itself, has saved no one, right?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I didn't retreat from anything.

You made statements about Matt. 6:14-15. Then I asked you to explain what your meant and I asked questions to illuminate your answer and you said:

Those questions are up to God, not me. I guess everyone will have to approach God for those answers

Perhaps we define "retreat" differently. (Dictionary: an act of moving back or withdrawing.)

The statement doesn't give degrees of forgiveness.

What is your definition of "degrees of forgiveness"? How does one partially forgive something? I suppose one could do 10 wrongs and I could forgive 5.

If I made any kind of claim it would be mere speculation.

You claimed in post 232: If they wanted their sins forgiven, they had to forgive others. Without one's sins being forgiven there is no salvation.
If I had known you were just speculating I wouldn't have bothered asking for an explanation. I thought you were making a point based on scripture, that point not being speculative; rather, foundational.

 

[Butch5]

HI Butch,

Thanks for your reply

I think in your example, Jesus was identifying and teaching an attribute of those who have become born again; that is, they who have been born again, will willingly forgive the sin of others because they have a fundamental knowledge of Gospel of Christ, and that Christ forgave them too. If someone doesn't do that, it is a warning they haven't been born again yet and could eventually face judgment.
I think it is only those born again who take that admonition and other biblical admonitions to heart and respond; those not born again don't care and ignore it. So, Jesus in effect, was actually identifying a spiritual state of being of an individual. Also, (and I almost don't want to get into it right now), but I've noticed the word "men" in the verse. "Men" is sometimes used symbolically in the Bible to denote Christians. So with "men" being in that verse, its object could be focusing on the forgiving of one Christians to another; "beast" is sometimes symbolically used to denote the unsaved.
There are a lot of other admonitions from God regarding how a born again believer is to act: it is the the gaining of spiritual knowledge given by the Holy Spirit- that's how it becomes manifested within them. But, not until becoming born again do they experience a "renewing" of the mind (an after effect of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit), by which, they ponder it, see/realize its wisdom, and truly desire in their receptive heart of hearts to conform to it. A born again believer doesn't just wake up one morning knowing all doctrine.
So, if someone claims to be a Christian, yet refuses to forgive -- especially other Christians, they prove they are not yet saved and still under law to be judged for their sin. If they are not of the Elect, they probably won't care or will misunderstand.

[Col 3:10-14 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.
14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

[Phl 2:13-15 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

[Rom 12:2 KJV]
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I think that Hebrews 7:25 is informing that Christ has already accomplished everything (the uttermost) to save those he has chosen to save. Nothing else should be attempted by us to enhance it because it is already fully complete in itself. To do otherwise is to call God a liar.

If, as I think you and others believe, Christ's payment for sin (by His offering) pertains to all mankind not just the elect, and that other actions by us are still required to realize/receive salvation, then, logically speaking, ( and with which I totally and completely disagree), Christ's offering, in and of itself, has saved no one, right?

HI Roger,

I have to disagree. If it was just something Christians will do then there would be no need to say that if they don't do it they won't be forgiven. However, I think that's beside the point. The point is that they do something. My argument is that there are things Christians must do to be saved.

It depends on how one views the Atonement. I don't hold to the idea of Penal atonement. I find that it runs contrary to Scripture. I hold the Ransom theory of the Atonement. As such Jesus didn't die to satisfy God's wrath. Rather He died to redeem mankind from Satan. As such man now, through Christ, has an opportunity to be saved. A lot of people hold the Penal Atonement model that says Jesus satisfied God's wrath, that He "paid" their sin debt to God. However, this idea runs contrary to Scripture. The Ransom theory holds that Jesus redeemed mankind and that man now has a chance to turn to God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The way I understand it is that forgiveness means we no longer hold them in debt to us on any level. We cannot mean them harm in any thought/word/deed. That does not mean we have to continue a relationship with them. It just means we release them so we can be released by God.

I like this definition. I am not sure it is correct. King David didn't sound forgiving as I usually think of forgiving when he said: Psalm 139:22 I hate them with perfect and utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.
.... but then I think of forgiving as also implying 'holding a grudge'.

I like you definition though as I have a neighbor I hold a grudge against and if forgiving means "no grudges" and if the Butch5 speculated that one is not forgiven if they don't forgive another ... then I might be headed to hell ... YIKES. (that would suck)(maybe king David will be in hell too or maybe he changed his mind and forgave (no grudge) later). Hmmmm.... I hope I don't die before I forget the grudge (aside: some sarcasm used in these statements)

Interesting ... Matt. 6:14-15 speculatively may be decisive verses that determine ones salvation ... speculatively, this is VERY IMPORTANT ... better cover all the bases (gee, is forgiveness a WORK?)
(aside: some sarcasm used in these statements)

 

[Butch5]

You made statements about Matt. 6:14-15. Then I asked you to explain what your meant and I asked questions to illuminate your answer and you said:

Perhaps we define "retreat" differently. (Dictionary: an act of moving back or withdrawing.)



What is your definition of "degrees of forgiveness"? How does one partially forgive something? I suppose one could do 10 wrongs and I could forgive 5.


You claimed in post 232: If they wanted their sins forgiven, they had to forgive others. Without one's sins being forgiven there is no salvation.
If I had known you were just speculating I wouldn't have bothered asking for an explanation. I thought you were making a point based on scripture, that point not being speculative; rather, foundational.

No, you didn't ask me to explain what I meant. You asked me to explain what Jesus meant. However, Jesus said nothing else on the subject there. Therefore I cannot elaborate further.

It seems you didn't like the implications of His statement. I find quite often when Christians don't like something in Scripture they try to reason it away. If works are necessary, how many works? Do I need to do 10 works or 11 works? What if I only do 9 works? If these questions aren't answered in Scripture then anything else is speculation and nothing more.

I don't have degrees of forgiveness. I was simply making a point.

I wasn't speculating when I said, "If they wanted their sins forgiven, they had to forgive others. Without one's sins being forgiven there is no salvation." Unless one wants to argue that salvation is possible without forgiveness, the logical conclusion is that if they didn't forgive they wouldn't be saved.

 

[daninthelionsden]

It only makes sense that we are to forgive. If we are to operate within Christ's Kingdom here on earth operating from Jerusalem, then we cannot be effective if we are in a state of unforgiveness. If we're walking around in indestructible bodies(glorified) we must be trusted to be loving merciful beings administering to vulnerable humans in frail bodies. We would be monsters on the loose otherwise.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If someone doesn't do that, it is a warning they haven't been born again yet and could eventually face judgment. ...

So, if someone claims to be a Christian, yet refuses to forgive -- especially other Christians, they prove they are not yet saved and still under law to be judged for their sin. If they are not of the Elect, they probably won't care or will misunderstand.

This means that a Christian CANNOT sin in regards to forgiveness. What other sins are Christians not capable of doing? .... or does a Christian just lose his salvation by doing this?

What does FORGIVE mean? The dictionary defines forgive as: stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake. So, if I get angry at someone for slapping my wife on the face I was either?:

1. Not a Christian in the first place or
2. I lost my salvation (if #2, can I get my salvation back ? do I have to forgive to do so?)

Interesting implications of this doctrine

 

[daninthelionsden]

I like this definition. I am not sure it is correct. King David didn't sound forgiving as I usually think of forgiving when he said: Psalm 139:22 I hate them with perfect and utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.
.... but then I think of forgiving as also implying 'holding a grudge'.

I like you definition though as I have a neighbor I hold a grudge against and if forgiving means "no grudges" and if the Butch5 speculated that one is not forgiven if they don't forgive another ... then I might be headed to hell ... YIKES. (that would suck)(maybe king David will be in hell too or maybe he changed his mind and forgave (no grudge) later). Hmmmm.... I hope I don't die before I forget the grudge (aside: some sarcasm used in these statements)

Interesting ... Matt. 6:14-15 speculatively may be decisive verses that determine ones salvation ... speculatively, this is VERY IMPORTANT ... better cover all the bases (gee, is forgiveness a WORK?)
(aside: some sarcasm used in these statements)

I don't believe you are held to have a relationship with him, but I do believe that to completely release him from any debt you may feel he owes you at any level then you should pray for him at least once and pray the Lord help you in this matter. I have much experience in this and praying in earnest for each and every one of them helped me greatly in releasing them.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It seems you didn't like the implications of His statement. [Matt 6:14-15]

I didn't care for what your interpretation of what Christ was saying, but I didn't realize you were drawing conclusions from what you said were your speculation. I see later in you supplemental post that you were not speculating. So I am just left confused.

I find quite often when Christians don't like something in Scripture they try to reason it away.

Agreed.

The statement doesn't give degrees of forgiveness.

I didn't understand 'degrees of forgiveness' so thus my question to explain them.

I don't have degrees of forgiveness. I was simply making a point.

I was seeking clarification as 'degrees of forgiveness' is a new concept for me. So you talk about 'degrees of forgiveness' but don't have them. I am confused, but it is of little importance.

I wasn't speculating when I said, "If they wanted their sins forgiven, they had to forgive others. Without one's sins being forgiven there is no salvation." Unless one wants to argue that salvation is possible without forgiveness, the logical conclusion is that if they didn't forgive they wouldn't be saved.

We've come full circle. I will drop my queries. Thanks for responding.

 

[JLB]

Yeah, the logical consequences the statement "that God does not forgive those who don't forgive others" can lead to quite ugly (I would say contradictory) interpretations of Matt. 6:14-15. You implied the road (interpretation) you supported but quickly retreated from the implications of that interpretation with the "it's a mystery explanation".

Aside: The verses are not my favorites as I too don't like the possibilities of what one particular interpretation might lead to. Scripture interprets scripture they say.

If a Christian does not forgive, do you believe they are forgiven their sins by God?



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

If a Christian does not forgive, do you believe they are forgiven their sins by God?

Why are you asking?
What is your answer to your question?

 

[rogerg]

have to disagree. If it was just something Christians will do then there would be no need to say that if they don't do it they won't be forgiven. However, I think that's beside the point. The point is that they do something. My argument is that there are things Christians must do to be saved.

Hey Butch,

I think what I was saying was that the ability to give forgiveness is an after affect of becoming saved because only then is the true Gospel message known/believed within their hearts. Thus, those who don't, don't because they are not saved and not under Christ. Unknowing and uncaring, they are in spiritual jeopardy just as all the unsaved are. The forgiveness in view is manifested in/by the sharing and re-sharing of the Gospel message and its forgiveness. All true believes are willing to reassert that message with any true Christian who may have deviated from it, but who comes to realize it and seeks to repent of it. The desire to grant forgiveness is a gift from God placed into the heart of those saved which cannot be denied, just as God did with the gift of faith.

[Luk 17:4 KJV] 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

(for brethen who seeks to repent)

[Mat 18:21-22 KJV]
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Note: "seventy times seven" symbolic numbers

It depends on how one views the Atonement. I don't hold to the idea of Penal atonement. I find that it runs contrary to Scripture. I hold the Ransom theory of the Atonement. As such Jesus didn't die to satisfy God's wrath. Rather He died to redeem mankind from Satan. As such man now, through Christ, has an opportunity to be saved. A lot of people hold the Penal Atonement model that says Jesus satisfied God's wrath, that He "paid" their sin debt to God. However, this idea runs contrary to Scripture. The Ransom theory holds that Jesus redeemed mankind and that man now has a chance to turn to God.

Boy, that topic could (and probably should) be a thread in itself. I'm not sure if my belief falls into any particular camp, but I believe that the purpose of Christ's ministry/sacrifice was to remove the law of sin and death and replace it with the law of the spirit of life in Christ. I think the manifestation of the law of sin and death was caused by Adam's and Eve's transgression of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - as law is the basis for the knowledge of good and evil. With that law, came into existence the judgment of everyone ever born onto this earth as they were under its auspices. Christ came, I believe, to eliminate it for the elect and Consequently placing them under the law of life in Chris. The law of sin and death was nailed to the cross destroying it hence ending sin, hence ending judgment and God's wrath . As we are informed in Romans, without the law there can be no sin.

 

[BrotherJames925]

The writer of Hebrews wrote Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

Man was added by the translators. The word pas can refer to all the whole, the sum total of all the group intended. Context is important n determining the group that the writer has in mind. Lets look at the very next verse 10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bingo, its the many sons that e suffered and died for, or tasted death for, The word many polys:

many, much, large, many, numerous, great

He tasted death for many Sons, a great number of them, everyone of them. This is important,, because later in the same epistle the writer uses the adjective many again to denote who He tasted death for Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.

See Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Hello "YOU ALL"...I see several incorrect things here, and it is normal, since lucifer has blinded the mind of people so they could not understand the Glorious Gospel of Jesus "The Jewish" Christ..You say:<<
See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.>> He died for "ALL" REGARDLESS!! The issue or problem here is this: Read: 2 Corinthians 5:15 And! He died "FOR ALL" so that "ALL" COULD and SHOULD "LIVE FOR HIM"...See!!!No-one does that, has done that except the REMNANT= The Chosen ones, His Spiritual Jews, His Christs, His Saints, His Church...Does this explain the whole enchilada?!! Yes!! lucifer has everybody in the world under his spell-power=1 John 5:19 + 3:8 Everyone who "PRACTICES" SIN.. is or belongs to lucifer...Rejecting His Holy Eternal Moral Law, Bautism in His Holy and "ONLY NAME"YHWH=Ha Shem =(No jehovah, or yahweh, or yaveh or logos, etc. etc.) But? Yahsuah=Jesus and His Holy Singularity....."PRACTICES SIN"..Are you one of them?!!! Are you among them?!! If you do, you'd better thing about it while you're still alive.....Brother James.......

 

[brightfame52]

Your interpretation of Scripture is bizarre. Since when did serpents become humans?

Here is something for you to contemplate...

Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Misrepresentation, I never said humans became serpents. Also Jesus called men serpents here Matt 23:23

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

But Im going to discontinue this conversation with you, I can see already you will misrepresent what is being said, later !

 

[brightfame52]

Hello "YOU ALL"...I see several incorrect things here, and it is normal, since lucifer has blinded the mind of people so they could not understand the Glorious Gospel of Jesus "The Jewish" Christ..You say:<<
See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.>> He died for "ALL" REGARDLESS!! The issue or problem here is this: Read: 2 Corinthians 5:15 And! He died "FOR ALL" so that "ALL" COULD and SHOULD "LIVE FOR HIM"...See!!!No-one does that, has done that except the REMNANT= The Chosen ones, His Spiritual Jews, His Christs, His Saints, His Church...Does this explain the whole enchilada?!! Yes!! lucifer has everybody in the world under his spell-power=1 John 5:19 + 3:8 Everyone who "PRACTICES" SIN.. is or belongs to lucifer...Rejecting His Holy Eternal Moral Law, Bautism in His Holy and "ONLY NAME"YHWH=Ha Shem =(No jehovah, or yahweh, or yaveh or logos, etc. etc.) But? Yahsuah=Jesus and His Holy Singularity....."PRACTICES SIN"..Are you one of them?!!! Are you among them?!! If you do, you'd better thing about it while you're still alive.....Brother James.......

Huh ? This is a rabbit trail !