Tasted Death for every Man !

[rogerg]

That an interpretation that I've never heard before. Do you have a URL/source that supports this (not that that proves the statement true, but at least it has some support).

Fastfredy0,

I just wanted to mention that in many verses pertaining to the world, some verses for blessing, some verses for wrath, God chose to not explicitly distinguish which one was in view: the new earth or old earth. So, consequently we need to put on our detective hat to deduce which one is which, and when, if we want to understand. So, It seems to me that the relevant logic for deciphering it boils down to the fact that if God is going to destroy this world due to its sin against Him and His wrath which it provoked, as He unquestionably said He would (and God doesn't lie). But He said He would bless the new one for eternity, then it seems pretty clear to me (and I'm no genius by any stretch) which one He alone He could have "so loved "

Thoughts?

 

[rogerg]

So, to be brief. Are you saying:

1. God loves the NEW EARTH (the physical planet) or
2. are you saying God loves the elect selected from the OLD EARTH as represented by the NEW EARTH?
3. or something/someone else

1. I'm not sure what form it will take - it may be something totally different than anything we can imagine. I'm only sure that He refers to it as the new earth with all that implies. I haven't found (at least yet) that God has supplied a lot of detail characteristics of its physical attributes - but maybe He has.
2. Possibly -- as I've read in the Bible where the new earth is characterized as a representation of the elect coming down from heaven but not sure if this characterization is complete
3. Possibly

To me, regardless of form, we have been informed that it is the new earth, and as such, where the elect will reside with God for eternity. It will be the replacement of this current earth

But, and I ask most respectfully, other than for curiosity's sake, why are those questions relevant? Or, do they imply something biblical you're thinking about or discovered?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I just wanted to mention that in many verses pertaining to the world, some verses for blessing, some verses for wrath, God chose to not explicitly distinguish which one was in view: the new earth or old earth.

Agreed.

But, and I ask most respectfully, other than for curiosity's sake, why are those questions relevant? Or, do they imply something biblical you're thinking about?

I am just confused. I've never heard of the word "world" in scripture to mean the "new world God creates after he destroys the current one" unless it is explicitly stated. Your answer to my question with a lot of "possibly" still leaves me confused even in regards to what your were trying to convey. It's not important though ... I am often confused (lol).

Aside: I've heard the word "world" in John 3:16 mean

• everyone without exception
• the elect
• the planet
• the Gentiles as well as the Jews
• ... and now the NEW WORLD to replace the CURRENT WORLD where world may be planet of elect

So, I am confused by yet another definition (that's why I go to explicit verses to unravel implicit ones)

Anyways, thanks for you correspondence and your pleasant on line mannerisms.

 

[rogerg]

Anyways, thanks for you correspondence and your pleasant on line mannerisms.

My Pleasure and thank you Fastfredy0. Please let me know what you find as I am very interested in this subject.

Roger

 

[Fastfredy0]

My Pleasure and thank you Fastfredy0. Please let me know what you find as I am very interested in this subject.

Roger

I've got 5 to 8 pages of people discussing the term "world". If you click on my name, hit "start conversion" and give me your email I can send it. No promises that is it all correct; but we seem to have similar outlooks on God's word so you might not find it too bad.

Aside: I forgot ... WORLD is also use to mean AGE as in the AGE of the dinosaurs for example.

 

[brightfame52]

If we continue in the context of Heb 2:9 we come to Vs 16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The Seed of Abraham ! This is the people He camr to rescue, to seize upon. Interestingly the phrase "he took on" in the original is epilambanomai:

to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to

1. to lay hold of or to seize upon anything with the hands, to take hold of, lay hold of
2. metaph. to rescue one from peril, to help, succour

He came to save, rescue, help a certain people, the seed of Abraham, which is not all mankind.

Jesus Illustrated this here Lk 19:1-10


His Mission was to lay hold of and save the seed of Abraham, a Spiritual seed, hence that's who He tasted death for, all the seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed[of Abraham]; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Now as we continue in the context Vs 17 of Heb 2 it reads:

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

He tasted death for all or everyone of the "sins of the people"

Reconciliation comes by means of Death, and notice its for the sins of the people. In the original people has the definite article, denoting a special group of people. That special group is the seed of Abraham referenced just before in Vs 16:
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Notice this making reconciliation for the sins of this specific people, is classified as that which pertains to God !

 

[brightfame52]

Thank you for dropping out of our conversation! FYI, here is Matthew 23:23, "“Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others." No mention of serpents.

Sorry It should have been Matt 23:33

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed.


I am just confused. I've never heard of the word "world" in scripture to mean the "new world God creates after he destroys the current one" unless it is explicitly stated. Your answer to my question with a lot of "possibly" still leaves me confused even in regards to what your were trying to convey. It's not important though ... I am often confused (lol).

Aside: I've heard the word "world" in John 3:16 mean

• everyone without exception
• the elect
• the planet
• the Gentiles as well as the Jews
• ... and now the NEW WORLD to replace the CURRENT WORLD where world may be planet of elect

So, I am confused by yet another definition (that's why I go to explicit verses to unravel implicit ones)

Anyways, thanks for you correspondence and your pleasant on line mannerisms.

In Jn 3:16 World could very well be planet, and so the sense would be in what manner He so loved the planet/world, so that all the believing ones may have everlasting life, whom He gave His Son for.

So it was for the sake of the believing ones He Loved the planet/word, tat Loved shown by giving His Son for them.

The World of His Own which e loved Jm 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

 

[rogerg]

Hello rogerg.. The Peace of Jesus, The "Jewish" Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man and The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature be with you.....YOU SAY:<<saved at a time of God's choosing,<< The God of Abraham Choose His people since Ex. 6:7 + 31:12-16 + 2 Samuel 7 22-26 + 1 Chron. 17: 24-26...It is us the humans the ones who have to CHOOSE HIM NOW, If we do we go and get baptized in His Name, and Start Obeying His Holy "ETERNAL" Moral Law, Keep His Hoy Sabbath-Holy, and? Accept and Honor his Singularity...This goes for all gentiles a literal Jews, to become a New Man...A Spiritual Jew a.k.a a Christian...

Hi BrotherJames925,

Thank you for your concern. I'm not exactly sure of what your beliefs are so I may have misunderstood the intent of your post, however, were we to attempt to satisfy the law through our own efforts, then I believe we would be in serious spiritual jeopardy indeed regarding our salvation. Please observe:

[Rom 4:4 KJV]
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

[Rom 3:19 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

[Rom 6:14 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[Gal 4:21-24, 26, 28 KJV] 21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. ...
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ...

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

[Heb 7:11 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Thanks
Roger

 

[rogerg]

Aside: I forgot ... WORLD is also use to mean AGE as in the AGE of the dinosaurs for example.

Hi Fastfredy0,
Just to add a little more to our discussion regarding "world" in John 3:`16, I suspect that (and just for the sake of discussion, regardless of what exactly is meant by it in the Bible i.e. whether a place, thing or other), we can nevertheless see that a new world (or a "world to come") will be present in addition to the new heaven and new earth
(if in fact they are different entities). So I am still inclined to think that John 3:16 might be referring to that new world, hot the old world. Please observe:

Mar 10:30 KJV]
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
[Luk 18:30 KJV]
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
[Heb 2:5 KJV]
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
[Heb 6:5 KJV]
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hi Fastfredy0,
Just to add a little more to our discussion regarding "world" in John 3:`16, I suspect that (and just for the sake of discussion, regardless of what exactly is meant by it in the Bible i.e. whether a place, thing or other), we can nevertheless see that a new world (or a "world to come") will be present in addition to the new heaven and new earth
(if in fact they are different entities). So I am still inclined to think that John 3:16 might be referring to that new world, hot the old world.

Roger:
Well, I am not sure what WORLD means. I am comfortable with your interpretation because, though I am not sure it is correct, it does not contradict other scripture and some people use it for another meaning that is contradictory. Again, my main thought is to interpret scripture from scripture and implicit verses by explicit verses.

Some possibilities
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government 2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe 3:3 3) the world, the universe 4) the circle of the earth, the earth 5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family 6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ 7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly 7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ 8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort 8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Ro 11:12 etc)
Net Bible

 

[for_his_glory]

The world in 3:16 is the world to come, not this current world. This world will be destroyed as the Bible informs per God's wrath - so how could GOD have "so loved" it? The only world that can exist eternally will be the world to come.
Had Christ's offering not been successful, then that new world would never be allowed by God to come into being, since it would then be under the law of sin and death - as this world currently is. But Christ was successful, so that new world will be created, having as its only law the law the spirit of life in Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Putting these verses all together for the full context of what Jesus was saying here we see that the word "world" means whosoever of the people of the world that will believe in Christ and confess Him as their Lord and Savior will have eternal life with Him when He returns for His Bride.

Well, to "confess" is not just confessing verbally by the mouth, but for it to come from the heart first. For that to happen, God had to have first indwelt the person and changed the heart, which He does only to those who become born-again. As with most biblical statements of this type, the person in view had to first be saved by God, with any subsequent actions as an after affect, or of by-product of it.

Believing comes first after hearing the word of God preached to us as by faith we confess with our mouth as we believe from our heart that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. This all takes place at the time of our Spiritual rebirth from above as God changes our stone heart to a heart of love for Him and for others.

No one can repent of themselves that it is the work of the Holy Spirit.

We experience the word of God preached to us by hearing the word first like those on the day of Penetcost who had their hearts pricked by hearing the truth and asked Peter what they should do. Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It's our obedience to the call of God through His word is what brings us to repentance as being part of the Spiritual rebirth and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. John 3:5-7; Luke 3:15-18; Romans 10:9, 10 Acts 2:37,38 all go hand in hand as we have four writers giving us all the same thing, but in various words that all come together as being God's salvation through Christ Jesus.

Wait -- did you quote verses that say we're saved by grace? And through faith -
the faith of Christ? That we are His workmanship, created in Jesus Christ?
Those verses don't leave any wiggle room for anything on our part, right?

Our only part is to first believe being the whosoever in John 3:16 as we can not work towards our salvation. Do you have to work for a free gift, no, it is given freely to all who will accept it.

If I understand you correctly, if we actually were to follow what you posted, then we would be trying to achieve the law through our works, and thus, we would be putting ourselves back under law which is what Christ came to remove

I'm only talking about the moral parts of the law that I mentioned in post #272 that we are to keep, not the parts that were written especially for Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as Jesus has already fulfilled the Temple laws by His death and resurrection.

 

[rogerg]

So it was for the sake of the believing ones He Loved the planet/word, tat Loved shown by giving His Son for them.

brightflame52,
Respectfully, I don't think this current world is to be saved since the Bible identifies a world to come . Possibly, I guess ,it could mean that it will be translated into the world to come, along with creation of the new heaven and earth, but I haven't found anything, biblically speaking, to support that. Since God said that He "so loved the world" I would think He was referring only to the world to come (unless the world and the those saved are synonymous somehow) - which would still make it into the world to come. Anyway, if the saved were actually in view in the verse 3:16, then I would think He would have just said that.
However, and as always, I could easily be wrong, so I'll keep looking.

Roger

 

[rogerg]

Well, I am not sure what WORLD means. I am comfortable with your interpretation because, though I am not sure it is correct, it does not contradict other scripture and some people use it for another meaning that is contradictory. Again, my main thought is to interpret scripture from scripture and implicit verses by explicit verses.

fastfredy0
Yup, I totally agree with your thought re interpretation, and it is the only correct way to do it. I'm still trying to think it all through again but this one is difficult

 

[for_his_glory]

Possibly we can simplify our dialogue with this question (if you don't mind answering that is): Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Saviour?

Thank you for clearing that up about earnest money as I thought you meant the Ephesians paid money in that verse.

Of course I believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior who gave His own life for me that through Him I can have eternal life with Him. Without being Spiritually born again from above and baptized in Christ for the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit I would have no part of the Spiritual kingdom of God while here on earth or in the New Jerusalem to come.

 

[Fastfredy0]

but this one is difficult

Doesn't seem to be high on the "importance " scale though.

 

[rogerg]

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Putting these verses all together for the full context of what Jesus was saying here we see that the word "world" means whosoever of the people of the world that will believe in Christ and confess Him as their Lord and Savior will have eternal life with Him when He returns for His Bride.

I think we (at at least at this point) have different interpretations of 3:17. I think the verse is saying that the purpose of Christ's ministry was to save the world to come, new heaven and new earth -- that God wanted to save and not condemn them. Had Christ been unsuccessful in that, then never could they have been created nor brought into being, because only the law of sin and death would reign there, making it just like this current world. But now, because Christ was successful, the law of life in Christ, reigns. Otherwise, had Christ failed, and there was to be no law of life in Christ, then what would be the purpose for the creation of new heaven, earth, and world to come ?
And as always, I can always be completely wrong about this.

 

[rogerg]

Of course I believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior who gave His own life for me that through Him I can have eternal life with Him. Without being Spiritually born again from above and baptized in Christ for the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit I would have no part of the Spiritual kingdom of God while here on earth or in the New Jerusalem to come

Yeah, ok I thought you were. But... you believe that is up to us to invoke the above though our free will, right? And if we don't, then we can't obtain them?

 

[brightfame52]

roger

brightflame52,
Respectfully, I don't think this current world is to be saved since the Bible identifies a world to come

Actually roger i wasnt focusing on the material world getting saved when i made the comment, just saying, the manner in which He Loved the world, it was for the benefit of the ones who are believing, the objects of Christs Death.

 

[rogerg]

Doesn't seem to be high on the "importance " scale though.

For what it's worth, pretty high to me