Tasted Death for every Man !

[rogerg]

Actually roger i wasnt focusing on the material world getting saved when i made the comment, just saying, the manner in which He Loved the world, it was for the benefit of the ones who are believing, the objects of Christs Death.

Gotcha, but I don't think there's a connection between His loving of this current world (which I don't think that He does), and the saving of those to be saved. I could be wrong, but I see them as being two entirely separate issues.

 

[brightfame52]

Gotcha, but I don't think there's a connection between His loving of this current world (which I don't think that He does), and the saving of those to be saved. I could be wrong, but I see them as being two entirely separate issues.

The manner in which He Loved the World was Loving[redemptively] His Own in the World, which are the Ones Believing or shall be believing. Thats why I added Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

The Objects of His Love were the ones believing, not the material planet.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

I think we (at at least at this point) have different interpretations of 3:17. I think the verse is saying that the purpose of Christ's ministry was to save the world to come, new heaven and new earth

Save it from what roger ?

 

[for_his_glory]

The word "world" is translated from the Greek "kosmos" which can mean the universe, the earth as well as the whole human race. Simply put, it is all God's creation including the creation of man/woman from the beginning that He was pleased with as it was good in the beginning. But through the deceit of Satan sin entered the hearts of men/women.


2Chronicles 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
(Now we see the house of sacrifice is through Christ Jesus fulfilling the sacrificial law of the Temple being made the atoning sacrificial Lamb for our sin once and for all taking our sin and nailing it to the cross by that of His death and resurrection. He tasted death for all that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9 but to believe He is the only begotten Son of God who sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.)
2Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
(In the end of days during the first six trumpets sounding those who are still alive a that time are going to see this same wrath from God being poured out into all the world in hopes that all would repent and turn back to Him before the return of Christ as He would then heal this land just like He promised the Israelites that rebelled against Him and perished in their sins.)



John 3:16 This is how God loved the world and everyone in it as He gave His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus that whoever of the human race that will come and believe in Him will have eternal life with Him.

2 Peter 3:9 God is patient with mankind not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and the door of God's salvation will be closed forever. We look for that day of the Lord to come as that day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements of the earth will melt in the heat as God will renew the heavens and the earth preparing it for the new heavens and new earth as we will see the New Jerusalem coming down before us as we will then dwell with the Lord forever.

This is what Jesus tasted death for that whoever of mankind will believe in Him will have everlasting life with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think we (at at least at this point) have different interpretations of 3:17. I think the verse is saying that the purpose of Christ's ministry was to save the world to come, new heaven and new earth -- that God wanted to save and not condemn them. Had Christ been unsuccessful in that, then never could they have been created nor brought into being, because only the law of sin and death would reign there, making it just like this current world. But now, because Christ was successful, the law of life in Christ, reigns. Otherwise, had Christ failed, and there was to be no law of life in Christ, then what would be the purpose for the creation of new heaven, earth, and world to come ?
And as always, I can always be completely wrong about this.

If it was the world to come then the phrase "might be saved" in vs. 17 would make no sense and should not be there in that verse as when the new heaven and earth comes all that are His own at His coming have already been caught up to Him and will for evermore be with Him as the great white throne judgement of God will have been completed before the New Jerusalem is ushered down.
I explained that in post # 304.

 

[rogerg]

Save it from what roger ?

From having the law of sin and death entering into it and reigning, as it does in this world - Satan's law

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If it was the world to come then the phrase "might be saved" in vs. 17 would make no sense and should not be there in that verse as when the new heaven and earth comes all that are His own at His coming have already been caught up to Him and will for evermore be with Him as the great white throne judgement of God will have been completed before the New Jerusalem is ushered down.

I don't agree with other John 3:16 interpretations you make, but this is a good point that seems to eliminate the NEW WORLD assertion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yeah, ok I thought you were. But... you believe that is up to us to invoke the above though our free will, right? And if we don't, then we can't obtain them?

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

It's one's own choice to accept the word of God and believe or reject it and walk in disobedience to it.​

 

[for_his_glory]

From having the law of sin and death entering into it and reigning, as it does in this world - Satan's law

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

How could the law of sin and death enter into the New Jerusalem when Satan and his minions and all who have rejected Christ are cast into the lake of fire. There will be no sin in the New Jerusalem as we will no longer have a sin nature as our bodies have now been raised a Spiritual body that is incorruptible and immortal and can not sin. God has now honored his promise of eternal life and we will be totally submitted to Gods will. Gods will is love and it's that love we will live eternally in towards each other. God has already cast out the sinful one from His Throne and his fate is the lake of fire with his beast and false prophets. Sin will no longer reign in heaven or the New Jerusalem.

The New Heaven and the New Earth
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God did not predestine the man

If man has “self-determination” then God has been predestined by man as God must respond to man’s input in regards to salvation. In this scenario man determines what God does. Although God can react theoretically in billions of ways, He will always react in the ‘best way’ and thus if man has ‘self-determination’ man would determine what God does; in effect God is man’s robot in regards to soteriology. God can magically look into the future to determine what man will do and thereby God can determine His fate as determined by man.

Self-determination in man a form of dualism - that there is another power other than God that predestines man's eternal destiny. It contradicts scripture (Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being]) ... it denies God's all-powerfulness; rather, all power does not lay in God ... but God and the self-determining power of man.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't agree with other John 3:16 interpretations you make, but this is a good point that seems to eliminate the NEW WORLD assertion.

Guess each one will have to work it out for themselves. I can't see it as being the new world to come as all those who are Christ own at that time have already been saved and caught up to Him on the last day when He returns.

 

[for_his_glory]

If man has “self-determination” then God has been predestined by man as God must respond to man’s input in regards to salvation. In this scenario man determines what God does. Although God can react theoretically in billions of ways, He will always react in the ‘best way’ and thus if man has ‘self-determination’ man would determine what God does; in effect God is man’s robot in regards to soteriology. God can magically look into the future to determine what man will do and thereby God can determine His fate as determined by man.

Self-determination in man a form of dualism - that there is another power other than God that predestines man's eternal destiny. It contradicts scripture (Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being]) ... it denies God's all-powerfulness; rather, all power does not lay in God ... but God and the self-determining power of man.

God gives us choices of blessings or cursing's as in how obedient we are to His word as some will accept it and some will reject it, Deuteronomy Chapter 27, 28. As Joshua said, choose you this day in whom you will serve.

We can either have our hearts pricked by hearing the word like those men on the day of Pentecost, or we can choose to not listen to that which is being preached.

Can you agree with this or not?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Guess each one will have to work it out for themselves.

I don't know what the answer is for the meaning of WORLD. So, when I figure the meaning of WORLD out for myself I just say, "time to move on to verses that are more explicit" .... or "verses that would eliminate possibilities" (there being 7 or so possibilities I've heard)
It is a tenuous theology that builds too much into implicit meaning IMO. Could get 'lucky' I suppose.

I would stop reading at this point ...

1) “Kosmos” is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 “God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth.”

2) “Kosmos” is used of the earth:
John 13:1 When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end.” “Depart out of this world” signifies, leave this earth.
Ephesians 1:4 “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.” This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

3) “Kosmos” is used of the world-system:
John 12:31 “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out”— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.

4) “Kosmos” is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—”Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

5) “Kosmos” is used of humanity minus believers:
John 15:18 “If the world hates you [and it does], know that it has hated Me before it hated you. [only the unelect hate Christ. Believers do not “hate” Christ, so that “the world” here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ.]
Romans 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world.” Here is another passage where “the world” cannot mean “you, me, and everybody,” for believers" will not be “judged” by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

6) “Kosmos” is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews:
Romans 11:12 “Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness.” Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, “the world” cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

7) “Kosmos” is used of believers only:
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [Since Jesus does not save all people in the world, that must refer to the elect]
John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life 16 “For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world [“For” refers to believers of verse 15], that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

NIV -but to save the world through him.
ESV -that the world might be saved through him.
NLT -to save the world through him.
NKJV -that the world through Him might be saved.
NLT -to save the world through him.

John 3:17
First occurrence (v.17), is necessarily to be understood that part of the habitable world wherein our Savior conversed;
in the second occurrence (v.17), all men in the world, as some suppose (so also there is a truth in it, for our Savior came not to condemn all men in the world: for, first, condemnation of any was not the prime aim of his coming; secondly, he came to save his own people, and so not to condemn all);
in the third occurrence (v.17), God's elect, or believers living in the world, in their several generations, who were they whom he intended to save, and none else, or he faileth of his purpose, and the endeavor of Christ is insufficient for the accomplishment of that whereunto it is designed

John 4:42 for [now] we have heard Him for ourselves and know [with confident assurance] that this One is truly the Savior of [all] the world.” [Since Jesus does not save all people in the world, that must refer to the elect]

John 6:33 For the Bread of God is He who comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world [the elect who are among the inhabitants of the world] is my flesh.”

John 12:46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes and trusts in Me [as Savior—all those who anchor their hope in Me and rely on the truth of My message] will not continue to live in darkness.

John 12:47 If anyone hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but to save the world.

Romans 11:15 For if their [present] rejection [of salvation] is for the reconciliation of the world [to God], what will their acceptance [of salvation] be but [nothing less than] life from the dead?

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them [but canceling them]. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation [that is, restoration to favor with God]. [only the elect are reconciled]

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son [as] Savior of the world. God's sending his Son to be the "Savior of the world," and his servant to testify it, is nothing but to be the Savior of men living in the world; which his elect are. A hundred such places as these, so clearly interpreted as they are in other places, would make naught at all to the purpose.

 

[rogerg]

If it was the world to come then the phrase "might be saved" in vs. 17 would make no sense and should not be there in that verse as when the new heaven and earth comes all that are His own at His coming have already been caught up to Him and will for evermore be with Him as the great white throne judgement of God will have been completed before the New Jerusalem is ushered down.
I explained that in post # 304.

But... would it be correct to say that the timeframe of 3:17 is BEFORE the successful completion of Christ's offering? So in a logical sense, wouldn't it be correct to say "might" since it hadn't yet occurred-- that when God sent Him it hadn't yet occurred that why He was sent (if that's understandable)?
Isn't this world condemned already, as it is to go away and be replaced by the "world to come". I don't think two can co-exist.

[Mar 10:30 KJV] 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
[Heb 2:5 KJV] 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
[Heb 6:5 KJV] 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

And, as I always say , I could easily be wrong.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God gives us choices of blessings or cursing's as in how obedient we are to His word as some will accept it and some will reject it, Deuteronomy Chapter 27, 28. As Joshua said, choose you this day in whom you will serve.

This is irrelevant. We both acknowledge man has choices. The arguments is WHO DETERMINES HOW WE CHOSE!

We can either have our hearts pricked by hearing the word like those men on the day of Pentecost, or we can choose to not listen to that which is being preached.

Again ... we agree on the EFFECT. The crux of the matter is WHO IS THE CAUSE?
You believe in a power outside of God (a form of dualism) whereby man self-determines his salvation. I hope your right ... then I will have cause to glorify myself in this respect as I will get the credit for my salvation, whereas a majority of mankind will blow it.
I believe God is the cause of my faith .... which coincides with a God that does not share His glory

If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... you also believe Jesus accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell... and they are not saved! This would mean that Jesus did not make the difference! Therefore you believe that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than Jesus... if they end up in heaven! If this is true then Jesus is only the means for those who save themselves!

 

[Fastfredy0]

And, as I always say , I could easily be wrong.

Ah, be like me and pretend you are always right. LOL... j/k

Just to make things more confusing ... one author said of John 3:17:
First occurrence (v.17), is necessarily to be understood that part of the habitable world wherein our Savior conversed;
in the second occurrence (v.17), all men in the world, as some suppose (so also there is a truth in it, for our Savior came not to condemn all men in the world: for, first, condemnation of any was not the prime aim of his coming; secondly, he came to save his own people, and so not to condemn all);
in the third occurrence (v.17), God's elect, or believers living in the world, in their several generations, who were they whom he intended to save, and none else, or he faileth of his purpose, and the endeavor of Christ is insufficient for the accomplishment of that whereunto it is designed

Like solving rubic's cube blindfolded (Aside: I saw someone on TV do it blind folded)

 

[rogerg]

don't know what the answer is for the meaning of WORLD. So, when I figure the meaning of WORLD out for myself I just say, "time to move on to verses that are more explicit" .... or "verses that would eliminate possibilities" (there being 7 or so possibilities I've heard)
It is a tenuous theology that builds too much into implicit meaning IMO. Could get 'lucky' I suppose.

Yep great point and I agree, but this topic just seems so important and central to God's message of salvation - almost as central to it as any other of its aspects. How does the law of sin and death, and Christ's law of life, both reign at the same time in the same place since they are mutually exclusive, and contradictory of each other?
For a real bad example, wouldn't that be kind of like two speed limit signs right besides one another each with a different limit? Okay, I said it was a bad example. Seems to me though that one law would have to exist in this world, the other in the world to come.

But, I could easily be wrong

 

[for_his_glory]

But... would it be correct to say that the timeframe of 3:17 is BEFORE the successful completion of Christ's offering? So in a logical sense, wouldn't it be correct to say "might" since it hadn't yet occurred-- that when God sent Him it hadn't yet occurred that why He was sent (if that's understandable)?
Isn't this world condemned already, as it is to go away and be replaced by the "world to come". I don't think two can co-exist.

[Mar 10:30 KJV] 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
[Heb 2:5 KJV] 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
[Heb 6:5 KJV] 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

And, as I always say , I could easily be wrong.

The Coming of the Son of Man
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Notice Rev 21:5, all things will be made new again. This takes place after God's Great White Throne judgement for at that time of His judgement those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire where Satan and his minions are already cast into.

After judgement is made then all things will become new again as sin can never enter into the new heaven and earth or the New Jerusalem.

In the world to come is after this present world has passed away and all things made new again.

 

[rogerg]

First occurrence (v.17), is necessarily to be understood that part of the habitable world wherein our Savior conversed;
in the second occurrence (v.17), all men in the world, as some suppose (so also there is a truth in it, for our Savior came not to condemn all men in the world: for, first, condemnation of any was not the prime aim of his coming; secondly, he came to save his own people, and so not to condemn all);

But, the law of the spirit of life in Christ is that which actually saves, no? Please observe:

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
I2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It was the law of life itself, that set Paul free from the law of sin and death

I dunno, I think I'm like you Fastfredy0, the more I look the confusder I get. Unfortunately, it seems that I am
unable to stop myself from continuing

 

[Fastfredy0]

ep great point and I agree, but this topic just seems so important and central to God's message of salvation - almost as central to it as any other of its aspects. How does the law of sin and death, and Christ's law of life, both reign at the same time in the same place since they are mutually exclusive, and contradictory of each other?

Well, I agree the law of sin and death, and Christ's law of life is important. I would go to more explicit verses to support the idea. Even if you are right about the interpretation of John 3 and the meaning of the word WORLD, you are in such a quagmire of confusion in John 3 that you won't get your point across IMO.
To tell you the truth, I wasn't sure what you meant by law of sin and death, and Christ's law of life until I goggled it and found Romans 2:8. Go there to make your point on the subject. I think Paul talk about his internal fight where the flesh is against the Spirit and vise versa. Anyways, that is my thoughts. Find an easier road to make the point IMO. I think most agree with you, but few would use John 3 to make it especially since it is HOLY TURF for the 'free willers'. (giggles)