Tasted Death for every Man !

[BrotherJames925]

To this statement we are all in agreement. :yes

 

[rogerg]

If man does not self-determine his salvation,,,,
then he also is not responsible for being lost.
If man is not responsible for being lost,,,,
what justice is there for him to end up in hell?

Hi wondering, I'm back again
Actually, it is my understanding that mankind became "lost" due to Adam and Eve transgression

[Rom 5:14-17 KJV]
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[1Co 15:21 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
[[1Co 15:22 KJV]
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello for his glory...The Peace of Jesus, "THE JEWISH" CHRIST, who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature be with you...YOU SAY:<<I believe you to be Messianic Jew by that of what you present in here. Is this correct?<< What part of the NO you do not uderstand?!! The N or the O?!!..

You say:<<Not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. <<CORRECT!! CORRECT!! CORRECT!! ONLY "THE REMNANT" The Spiritual Jews a.k.a Christians, His Christs, His Saints, His Church....

You say:<<< Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31.<< Maybe in your theology or in your religion.....The "ONLY JEWS" Who are The God of Abraham as His Spiritual Jews.."WHO DO HIS WILL"...NO ONE ELSE...REGARDLESS!!! ALL HIS PEOPLE "ARE SEALED WITH HIS SEAL OF OWNERSHIP=THE NAME OF JESUS, IN WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT "COMES"= John 14:26..

You say:<<Within your teachings and misinterpretations of scripture, not using the full context, you are telling Gentiles they can not be of God's because your so called "Jewish Jesus" has rejected the Gentiles and we are all doomed to hell fire. << Not only the gentiles, the literal jews too....both have to become Spiritual Jews to qualify for being Sons/Daughters of the God of Abraham...Whether you like it or no, accept it or not...OR?! Give one single scripture where the God of Abraham the "Jewish" Jesus says, the gentiles are His people?!! Give me a scripture a single scripture where the God of Abraham says He Himself will come and REDEEEM THE ISRAELITES FROM THEIR SINS? Give one single covenant made with the gentiles, give one single blessing, given to the gentiles, etc. etc...SALVATION COMES FROM THE JEWS TO "THE SPIRITUAL JEWS"...Who believed He was YHWH the Holy Spirit a.k.a the Father in the flesh and accepted Him by getting baptized in His Holy Name (Got sealed with His seal of OWNERSHIP) at Acts 2:38-40 + Gal. 3:24-29:14 + Titus 2;13-15 + Ephesians 5:24-27.....

You say:<<your heresies like that of John 3:16; Galatians 3:15-28.<<<You and your people do not believe that the Son is the Father in human nature = Isaiah 8:8;10 = Matthew 1:23-25....Luke 2:11...You should stick to your theology or religion and stay there....I will give you an example in human terms....You work for Bank of America then go the Wells Fargo and demand payment...No cherry coke son....no cherrry coke...stay with your catolic-roman, babilonian-mesopotamian-sumerian, asirian-persa. egypcian-greek christ=jehovah, yahweh, yaveh, logos, trinity, lawless etc.etc... Nobody will say anything 'bout that...stay within' your turf....

Brother James......

There is no need to be sarcastic as I am only trying to understand that of what you believe. Apparently you do not subscribe to the Trinity and just cast aside many scriptures in the NT that you do not agree with that I have been sharing with you.

I asked you a question and was hoping for an answer so will ask it again.

How does a Gentile get saved or are we just doomed as throw away discarded by God?

You do understand that this is a Christian forum opened to all no matter what their religious filiation is as we discuss the whole of scripture. You disregard the Statement of faith and the terms of service that you were suppose to accept when becoming a member, but I am going to show you grace for now.

 

[BrotherJames925]

I take it you do not believe the teachings Christ gave to Paul to write as Paul was the one who wrote this. Was Paul a Gentile or a Jew that was sent out to teach the Gentile nations by Christ calling him to the Gentiles?

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

Again Paul writes and at that time of his conversion on the road to Damascus was no longer a hard core Pharisee, but called of Christ to the Gentile nations.

So you are saying all Gentiles have no hope in Christ and we are all destined to hell!!! Wow!!!

If you believe this then what must we do to be saved?

Hello for his glory.. The Peace of Jesus, "The Jewish" Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature...be with you....YOU SAY:<<
So you are saying all Gentiles have no hope in Christ and we are all destined to hell!!! Wow!!!

If you believe this then what must we do to be saved?<<<

SEE!!!!YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN BIBLE.. I will put it easy for you..."DO THE WILL OF THE GOD OF ABRAHAM"..then you'll become a Spiritual Jew..Spiritual Because our God is the Holy Spirit and Live in us...Jew because we accept and honor that He came in the flesh and was born of the tribe of Judah....In other words, The Spirirtual Jews as "CHRISTS" as He was = Gal. 4:19 + 1 Cor. 2:16...Romans 13:14 CLOTHE YOURSELVES "WITH THE Lord"..See! This happens in baptism in His Name...= Gal. 3:24-29:14...+ 1 Cor. 11:1 Paul says: FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE+(IMITATE ME) AS I FOLLOW THE EXEMPLE OF CHRIST (AS I IMITATE CHRIST"...Was the Jewish Christ "LAWLESS"?!!! Did he observe The First day of the week as His day of Rest?!!! Did Paul...Did the "Jewish" Christ believed in the trinity?? did Paul, did any of the apostles?...Were the apostles baptized in the Name of Jesus or in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit= 666 the seal of lucifer.......Now! I told you what you own bible "TELLS YOU">>>DO THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND YOU WILL BE SAVED...SIMPLE! Whether you are a gentile or a literal jew...If you do that you will become the New Man Ephesians 2:15 and 2 Cor. 5:1-21 talks about.....

You say:<<The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.<< CORRECT!! CORRECT!!! CORRECT!!! That "REMNANT" Started at Acts 2:38-40 = Zech. 12:10..See! And of Course..."STILL OPEN"..You want to Join the "Jewish" Christ"...GO ahead, get a Spiritual Jew Priest and have Him taken you to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, and learn from him...GO AHEAD, I would feel real happy if you do that...But!!! AS GENTILE...only lucifer will take you, or as literal jew....Brother James...

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello for his glory.. The Peace of Jesus, "The Jewish" Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature...be with you....YOU SAY:<<
So you are saying all Gentiles have no hope in Christ and we are all destined to hell!!! Wow!!!

If you believe this then what must we do to be saved?<<<

SEE!!!!YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN BIBLE.. I will put it easy for you..."DO THE WILL OF THE GOD OF ABRAHAM"..then you'll become a Spiritual Jew..Spiritual Because our God is the Holy Spirit and Live in us...Jew because we accept and honor that He came in the flesh and was born of the tribe of Judah....In other words, The Spirirtual Jews as "CHRISTS" as He was = Gal. 4:19 + 1 Cor. 2:16...Romans 13:14 CLOTHE YOURSELVES "WITH THE Lord"..See! This happens in baptism in His Name...= Gal. 3:24-29:14...+ 1 Cor. 11:1 Paul says: FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE+(IMITATE ME) AS I FOLLOW THE EXEMPLE OF CHRIST (AS I IMITATE CHRIST"...Was the Jewish Christ "LAWLESS"?!!! Did he observe The First day of the week as His day of Rest?!!! Did Paul...Did the "Jewish" Christ believed in the trinity?? did Paul, did any of the apostles?...Were the apostles baptized in the Name of Jesus or in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit= 666 the seal of lucifer.......Now! I told you what you own bible "TELLS YOU">>>DO THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND YOU WILL BE SAVED...SIMPLE! Whether you are a gentile or a literal jew...If you do that you will become the New Man Ephesians 2:15 and 2 Cor. 5:1-21 talks about.....

You say:<<The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.<< CORRECT!! CORRECT!!! CORRECT!!! That "REMNANT" Started at Acts 2:38-40 = Zech. 12:10..See! And of Course..."STILL OPEN"..You want to Join the "Jewish" Christ"...GO ahead, get a Spiritual Jew Priest and have Him taken you to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, and learn from him...GO AHEAD, I would feel real happy if you do that...But!!! AS GENTILE...only lucifer will take you, or as literal jew....Brother James...

Brother James...
There was no reply to my last post to you.
However, I'll also answer the above post since I've also noticed that you're a Sabbath keeper.
Which is fine. We should worship God every day but putting aside a special day as God commanded is good.

It's more than apparent to me that you know very little of church history since it seems you don't know that the first day of the week, Sunday, has been kept holy for God since the beginning of the church.

Here's a question for you:
There are 10 commandments.
Most Christians seem to ignore one of them...
Could you tell us the difference between the 9 commandments all Christians agree on,
and the one commandment that we do not agree on...the one about keeping the Sabbath holy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering, I'm back again
Actually, it is my understanding that mankind became "lost" due to Adam and Eve transgression

[Rom 5:14-17 KJV]
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[1Co 15:21 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
[[1Co 15:22 KJV]
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Thanks Roger.
Of course the above is true....
I meant lost in the sense of right now....
some of us are lost and some of us are not.
What made HUMANKIND become lost was the disobedience of God's command by Adam, the first man and the one that represented all of mankind.

BTW,,,,I hope we can agree that the free gift is salvation.

Midnight here. Will get to your other post tomorrow morning.

 

[BrotherJames925]

Brother James...
There was no reply to my last post to you.
However, I'll also answer the above post since I've also noticed that you're a Sabbath keeper.
Which is fine. We should worship God every day but putting aside a special day as God commanded is good.

It's more than apparent to me that you know very little of church history since it seems you don't know that the first day of the week, Sunday, has been kept holy for God since the beginning of the church.

Here's a question for you:
There are 10 commandments.
Most Christians seem to ignore one of them...
Could you tell us the difference between the 9 commandments all Christians agree on,
and the one commandment that we do not agree on...the one about keeping the Sabbath holy.

Hello wondering...The Peace of Jesus, The "JEWISH" Christ, who is the HOly Spirit. The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, the God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature be with you...YOU SAY:<<and the one commandment that we do not agree on...the one about keeping the Sabbath holy.<<

The Lord of the Sabbath comes every Holy Sabbath-Day, to have fellowship with His People, the Spiritual Jews, to forgive our sins, to renew our spirits, to revive our souls, To restore GRACE, To Purifies us, to Sanctify us and to have fellowship with The Lord of the Sabbath, etc. etc...When you REJECT IT...YOU REJECT HIM COMING TO YOUT HOUSE, meaning there is no Family Ties...Read: Ex. 31:13-16 = Heb. 2:11 + 1 Peter 2:12...Salvation is delivered to you every Hoy Sabbath-Day, which is "HOLY TO YOU TOO"= Ex. 13:14...See! But this is ONY FOR "ISRAELITES" LITERALS AND SPIRITUALS..NO OTHER ONES!!! But you are o.k...The christ of christendom commands his people to keep Sunday, so we both are O.K. we both are PLEASING OUR GODS AND Lords and CHRISTS...The issue is this: You people expect blessings and eternal life from the Lord of the Jewish Sabbath, having your sunday lord, but!! You will see when time comes, you all will see when you are in the flames.....Brother James.....

 

[rogerg]

I don't believe you can make that argument from Scripture. If forgiveness was something that automatically came to a believer after being saved then there would be no reason to mention it. And, there would really be no reason to say what would happen if they didn't do it? The fact that Jesus tells them what would happen if they didn't do it, indicates that there was the possibility that they wouldn't do it. I also don't think you can make that case from reality. I've seen Christians who have refused to forgive

Hi Butch5.
In the Bible, God informs of the characteristics He instills within those born-again. As part of the process of coming into the fullness of spiritual wisdom, is given the knowledge (through a renewed mind) of those characteristics. To forgive becomes the normal state of being for a believer. NOT FORGIVING is not, and it is therefore "work". The believer looks for, and relishes opportunities to share the Gospel. God is also informing that those who do not willingly do so from the heart probably haven't yet become born-again. And once truly saved it is impossible to become un-saved.
I realize it's a little confusing and difficult to see, but God uses the Gospel to inform of the attributes of the
born-again. However, I also think, per PHl 2:13, (and just a supposition on my part), that they would eventually come to that realization of themselves.
I don't think that Jesus was warning of a do it or else situation, I think He used it as an a teaching opportunity to inform them/us. Something else to consider is that, for the sake of argument, if He was telling them what you say He was - do it or else-- what good would that be? Since, to truly satisfy the command, forgiveness must first be in/come from the heart. But, how can that happen without the heart first having been changed? Can it change itself of itself? Can we force ourselves into feeling something that we just don't feel? Can an infected organ cure itself, or does it require something outside of itself to do so? So, just to mouth the words, or to just act like it's true when it's not, would would leave the person still in violation of the command and would therefore be insufficient.

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
I[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Then again, I could be entirely wrong about all this

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello for his glory.. The Peace of Jesus, "The Jewish" Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature...be with you....YOU SAY:<<
So you are saying all Gentiles have no hope in Christ and we are all destined to hell!!! Wow!!!

If you believe this then what must we do to be saved?<<<

SEE!!!!YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN BIBLE.. I will put it easy for you..."DO THE WILL OF THE GOD OF ABRAHAM"..then you'll become a Spiritual Jew..Spiritual Because our God is the Holy Spirit and Live in us...Jew because we accept and honor that He came in the flesh and was born of the tribe of Judah....In other words, The Spirirtual Jews as "CHRISTS" as He was = Gal. 4:19 + 1 Cor. 2:16...Romans 13:14 CLOTHE YOURSELVES "WITH THE Lord"..See! This happens in baptism in His Name...= Gal. 3:24-29:14...+ 1 Cor. 11:1 Paul says: FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE+(IMITATE ME) AS I FOLLOW THE EXEMPLE OF CHRIST (AS I IMITATE CHRIST"...Was the Jewish Christ "LAWLESS"?!!! Did he observe The First day of the week as His day of Rest?!!! Did Paul...Did the "Jewish" Christ believed in the trinity?? did Paul, did any of the apostles?...Were the apostles baptized in the Name of Jesus or in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit= 666 the seal of lucifer.......Now! I told you what you own bible "TELLS YOU">>>DO THE GOD OF ABRAHAM AND YOU WILL BE SAVED...SIMPLE! Whether you are a gentile or a literal jew...If you do that you will become the New Man Ephesians 2:15 and 2 Cor. 5:1-21 talks about.....

You say:<<The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Ps alms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.<< CORRECT!! CORRECT!!! CORRECT!!! That "REMNANT" Started at Acts 2:38-40 = Zech. 12:10..See! And of Course..."STILL OPEN"..You want to Join the "Jewish" Christ"...GO ahead, get a Spiritual Jew Priest and have Him taken you to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, and learn from him...GO AHEAD, I would feel real happy if you do that...But!!! AS GENTILE...only lucifer will take you, or as literal jew....Brother James...

Don't need a Spiritual Jew Priest as man can not save us. I have been baptized in the Baptism of Christ in the name of the Trinity (Father Son and Holy Spirit) and have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches all truths. Christ Jesus became my Lord and Savior through the Spiritual rebirth from above as He is in me and I in Him, Colossians 3:1-4.

I will have nothing to do with your false religion of Judaism that does not believe in the Trinity nor worships Christ as being a part of the Godhead. You call Christ Jesus a false Prophet just like the Jews did that wanted Him crucified. Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Christ Jesus.

Act 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Notice it says the disciples (Jewish men called of Jesus) were called Christians. How do you reconcile that with you saying Christianity is of Satan?

You speak about Paul, but yet reject that of what God gave him to write to the Christian Churches. We do not follow Roman Catholic doctrine or Protestant doctrine, but only that of the doctrines of Christ for what He has already taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,
I'll try to. Thank you very much for the welcome. I'm enjoying and learning from the back-and-forth that's been going on here. As to your question, and IMHO, it is an extremely good one. Now, for the sake of my reply, for now, I'll assume you're curious about my interpretation - however, it could get lengthy. I'm also interested to hear yours. Oh, and by the way, I'm concerned that I'll exceed the reply size limitation, so I may have to post several to complete my thoughts.

Hi Roger,
sorry for delay.

Anyway (as you might have noticed), we've been discussing those verses over the last several days, so I may inadvertently not focus on your areas of interest. If so, or if you would like me to expound on anything, please let me know.

The interest is in the word WORLD.
It seems easy enough to understand.
I'm wondering what the problem is.....
Thanks for a thoughful reply.

So, for 3:16, there are a few keywords upon which everything else seems to hinge: "world" and "whosoever." To me, the "world" represents the "world to come," not this current world. Now, I think this because, one way or another, this present world will cease to exist due to God's displeasure with it.

We know that this world will come to an end...no doubt about that.
But isn't LOVED THE WORLD in the past tense?
It does not say FOR GOD WILL LOVE THE WORLD.
Why do you think it means the world to come?

Since God will do away with it, it doesn't make sense to me that He loves it too: God is God and does not have to justify His decisions or actions to us - He does whatever is His good pleasure, no excuses necessary. If the current world were the world He "loved," then I think He would let it remain,

Who are you o man, to decide or "think" what God would do?
First you say God could do whatever He wishes, and then you say you "think" God would let the world remain IF He really loved it.
Why can't you not accept what the bible tells us?
Why stay with what we know instead of "thinking" up your own ideas??
Jesus said there is a day coming when all will come forth from the tombs...this will be resurrection day.
John 5:28-29 This will be judgement day.
Jesus speaks about the end of times in Matthew 24, 25, Mark 13:32
Paul speaks about the end of times in 2 Timothy 3:1.
...and in many other verses...

but He will not, as evidenced in there being a world to come. What I found interesting, though, and in expanding my reply beyond these verses a little, is that God has created a new heaven and new earth to go with the world to come. When the Bible discusses the new heavens and earth, we are informed the old ones will be destroyed before the new ones become manifested.

Right. But this does not mean that God does not love the world He created.
Perhaps you're coming to these conclusions because you cannot believe that God loves the world He created?
Jesus Himself is saying that God so loved the world in John 3:16.....why doubt Jesus?
Romans 5:8 tells us that God loved us even before we were saved.
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

God loves the whole world --- this includes the righteous and the unrighteous.

Also, the following which also uses the word WORLD shows that Jesus is speaking of the present time...THIS world.

John 15:18-19
18“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Above Jesus is speaking to His Apostles.
Verse 18: Why would the future world hate the Apostles? In the future world we will all love each other.
Verse 19: Why would Jesus say IF the apostles were of the world? Of course the Apostles will be in the future world.

The Bible doesn't seem to say that about the current world in terms of destruction (at least not that I could find). Yet, another one is to come. Now, we've all wracked our brains here trying to figure out what "world" actually is. I know fastfredy0 sure has and the others too. In any event, I've come to the point where I think that it might not matter logically speaking. I think what is germane is that the current one will be replaced by the one to come. But, only one of them is to be "saved" (in 3:17), and I can't see it being the current one.

John 3:17 is also speaking of THIS world.
Do you think Jesus might be judging the world to come??
Of course not.

Jesus died for everyone....1 John 2:2
Everyone in the world.
Whoever wishes to be saved may do so by believing in Christ.
He will not be judged, but those that do not believe are judged already because we are born lost and need salvation.
It's unfortunate that we read into verses what is not there.
Salvation is personal...it is not world-wide as you seem to believe in having to decide which world is saved.
In the future there will be no more talk about salvation since all those in the new earth will be saved and this discussion will end.

That being the case, it would mean that Christ's sacrifice was for the world to come. The "whosoever(s)" will therefore exist in a new domain without this current world's curse which brings judgment and death. This was achieved by Christ's offering.
Again, I believe that in 3:16 & 17 it is the world to come that God had in view and "so loved", since it is perfect and without sin through Christ. Now, the law that caused the judgment and punishment of God to be levied against mankind, Christ "took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross". It would then not be possible that that law should reign in the world to come, in new the heavens, and in the new earth, as it has here since Adam's and Eve's transgression. Instead, the law which is to reign there must be a law that permits only eternal life and only allows entry to those who are in the Lamb's book of life.

I think I'll stop here due to the size limitation(if I haven't already exceeded it). I'll try to post the second one in a day or two, but please send me any questions or disagreements you may have before then.

Oh, by the way as I always say, I could easily be wrong about this.

Yes!
I think so. I don't know of ANY denomination that teaches what you are stating.

Please observe:
[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[Jhn 3:16-17 KJV]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Of course nothing unclean will enter into heaven.
But this is taken care of in THIS world.
Those that believe now...will be the residents of the new earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello wondering...The Peace of Jesus, The "JEWISH" Christ, who is the HOly Spirit. The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, the God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature be with you...YOU SAY:<<and the one commandment that we do not agree on...the one about keeping the Sabbath holy.<<

The Lord of the Sabbath comes every Holy Sabbath-Day, to have fellowship with His People, the Spiritual Jews, to forgive our sins, to renew our spirits, to revive our souls, To restore GRACE, To Purifies us, to Sanctify us and to have fellowship with The Lord of the Sabbath, etc. etc...

Please clarify what you mean.
Does God visit us only one day per week?
Is Jesus God?
Is God omnipresent?

I agree with the rest,,,except that we enjoy God's grace always,,,not just one day per week (if that's what you mean).

When you REJECT IT...YOU REJECT HIM COMING TO YOUT HOUSE, meaning there is no Family Ties...Read: Ex. 31:13-16 = Heb. 2:11 + 1 Peter 2:12...Salvation is delivered to you every Hoy Sabbath-Day, which is "HOLY TO YOU TOO"= Ex. 13:14...See! But this is ONY FOR "ISRAELITES" LITERALS AND SPIRITUALS..NO OTHER ONES!!!

Are we saved every week or are we saved one time?

But you are o.k...The christ of christendom commands his people to keep Sunday, so we both are O.K. we both are PLEASING OUR GODS AND Lords and CHRISTS...The issue is this: You people expect blessings and eternal life from the Lord of the Jewish Sabbath, having your sunday lord, but!! You will see when time comes, you all will see when you are in the flames.....Brother James.....

It's not up to you Brother James, to state who will be in the flames.
This is a job left up to God Almighty, and not to any mere human.

Please notice that there is ONLY ONE GOD.
There is only ONE SON.
There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT.

There is not a Jewish God and a Christian God.
If this were the case then you'd be a believer of pantheism and that, of course, is a heresy.

I do not expect my salvation from the Lord of the Jewish Sabbath,,,but from the one and only God, creator of the universe.

Those such as yourself do not work to gather sheep into the fold....
rather you work to disperse the sheep.
Jesus said we are to be one and that HE is the only good shepherd.
John chapter 10


1 Corinthians 12:13
13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Peter 3:8
8Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

1 Corinthians 1:10
10I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Butch5.
In the Bible, God informs of the characteristics He instills within those born-again. As part of the process of coming into the fullness of spiritual wisdom, is given the knowledge (through a renewed mind) of those characteristics. To forgive becomes the normal state of being for a believer. NOT FORGIVING is not, and it is therefore "work". The believer looks for, and relishes opportunities to share the Gospel. God is also informing that those who do not willingly do so from the heart probably haven't yet become born-again. And once truly saved it is impossible to become un-saved.
I realize it's a little confusing and difficult to see, but God uses the Gospel to inform of the attributes of the
born-again. However, I also think, per PHl 2:13, (and just a supposition on my part), that they would eventually come to that realization of themselves.
I don't think that Jesus was warning of a do it or else situation, I think He used it as an a teaching opportunity to inform them/us. Something else to consider is that, for the sake of argument, if He was telling them what you say He was - do it or else-- what good would that be? Since, to truly satisfy the command, forgiveness must first be in/come from the heart. But, how can that happen without the heart first having been changed? Can it change itself of itself? Can we force ourselves into feeling something that we just don't feel? Can an infected organ cure itself, or does it require something outside of itself to do so? So, just to mouth the words, or to just act like it's true when it's not, would would leave the person still in violation of the command and would therefore be insufficient.

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
I[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Then again, I could be entirely wrong about all this

This is for Butch5 too.

I'd have to agree with what you say above.
Forgiveness has to come from the heart...
HOWEVER...if we wait to feel forgiveness from the heart, we might be waiting a long time!

I believe that forgiveness can be a matter of the will.
We WILL to forgive someone even though it is only in our mind and even though we might still be feeling hurt from whatever a person may have done to us.

In time the Holy Spirit works in us and eventually that forgiveness will move from the mind to the heart.

Jesus meant that we are to be God-like.
God forgives, and so we must also forgive.
If we cannot forgive someone, we must confess this so that the Holy Spirit can work to heal this sin.

In some way that we don't understand, God is hindered by our non-forgiveness.

 

[GodsGrace]

HI Roger,

I don't believe you can make that argument from Scripture. If forgiveness was something that automatically came to a believer after being saved then there would be no reason to mention it. And, there would really be no reason to say what would happen if they didn't do it? The fact that Jesus tells them what would happen if they didn't do it, indicates that there was the possibility that they wouldn't do it. I also don't think you can make that case from reality. I've seen Christians who have refused to forgive

Regarding the Atonement, I was just pointing out how what I believe is different than most so I see Christ's death differently than a lot of people. I would ask though, if the law of sin and death has ended, why do Christians still sin and die?

The law of sin and death just means that we are slaves of satan....
that we are under HIS domain.

We still sin because the sin nature does not leave us once we become saved...
However, it IS under submission and we become "slaves" to God.
Friends and sons really, but to use the same language.

I don't understand what you believe about the atonement,,,,but there is more than one theory...I believe we've spoken about this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Brother James...
There was no reply to my last post to you.
However, I'll also answer the above post since I've also noticed that you're a Sabbath keeper.
Which is fine. We should worship God every day but putting aside a special day as God commanded is good.

It's more than apparent to me that you know very little of church history since it seems you don't know that the first day of the week, Sunday, has been kept holy for God since the beginning of the church.

Here's a question for you:
There are 10 commandments.
Most Christians seem to ignore one of them...
Could you tell us the difference between the 9 commandments all Christians agree on,
and the one commandment that we do not agree on...the one about keeping the Sabbath holy.

BrotherJames925

You never answered the above question I had asked you previously.

9 commandments are the same in nature.
1 is different - the one about Keeping the Sabbath holy.

What is the difference?

 

[rogerg]

Hi wondering

It seems easy enough to understand.
I'm wondering what the problem is.....
Thanks for a thoughful reply.

I think "world" is a different Greek word than either heaven or earth, so it might represent something else but couldn't find it defined anywhere (could have missed it). Not sure what else would be left. I could speculate but rather be certain (if possible). What do you think it means?

We know that this world will come to an end...no doubt about that.
But isn't LOVED THE WORLD in the past tense?
It does not say FOR GOD WILL LOVE THE WORLD.
Why do you think it means the world to come?

I think "loved" is in the Aroist tense (not that I'm expert in Greek) but my understanding is that it is typically rendered in the past tense even when no tense has actually been established.

Who are you o man, to decide or "think" what God would do?
First you say God could do whatever He wishes, and then you say you "think" God would let the world remain IF He really loved it.
Why can't you not accept what the bible tells us?
Why stay with what we know instead of "thinking" up your own ideas??
Jesus said there is a day coming when all will come forth from the tombs...this will be resurrection day.
John 5:28-29 This will be judgement day.
Jesus speaks about the end of times in Matthew 24, 25, Mark 13:32
Paul speaks about the end of times in 2 Timothy 3:1.
...and in many other verses...

Sorry, you kind of lost me on this one - I'm not sure what you mean? God wrote the Bible because He want's us to think, I think - He reasons with us through His word. Don't forget His admonition that to come to a proper interpretation of the Bible, we are to compare the spiritual with the spiritual and also that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. There are many other admonitions of this type.
If we just take the Bible's verses individually or just at face value, we run the very great risk of coming to an incorrect interpretation
Thinking and reasoning are sometimes necessary in order to do that - so I think God is telling us to think because He doesn't always say everything explicitly.

Regarding thinking in understanding the Bible:
[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Regarding biblical interpretation
[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Don't you think that the heavens and earth are to be destroyed and the next world will replace this world ? Were there no sin in them, why would He do this? Why would God destroy them if He loves them?

Right. But this does not mean that God does not love the world He created.
Perhaps you're coming to these conclusions because you cannot believe that God loves the world He created?
Jesus Himself is saying that God so loved the world in John 3:16.....why doubt Jesus?
Romans 5:8 tells us that God loved us even before we were saved.
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

God gave up this earth to men. In a sense, this earth is no longer His earth.
[Psa 115:15-16 KJV]
15 Ye [are] blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, [even] the heavens, [are] the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Satan is its prince:
[Jhn 12:31 KJV] 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

I think Romans 5:8,9,10 are referring to true believers, or to those who will become true believers, but not to everyone, or then everyone would become saved.

Right. But this does not mean that God does not love the world He created.
Perhaps you're coming to these conclusions because you cannot believe that God loves the world He created?
Jesus Himself is saying that God so loved the world in John 3:16.....why doubt Jesus?
Romans 5:8 tells us that God loved us even before we were saved.
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

God loves the whole world --- this includes the righteous and the unrighteous.

God does not love the unrighteous and the unrighteous are those not justified by Christ.

[Jhn 17:9 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 15:18-19
18“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Above Jesus is speaking to His Apostles.
Verse 18: Why would the future world hate the Apostles? In the future world we will all love each other.
Verse 19: Why would Jesus say IF the apostles were of the world? Of course the Apostles will be in the future world.

Two "world"(s) are referenced in the Bible: 1) the current world and,2) the world to come. Maybe I misunderstand your point, but it seems like you're saying all references are to the world to come - they're not - many are to the current world. Spiritually speaking then, 18 (above) is saying those of the unsaved hate those of the saved and who are of the next world.

Sorry should probably stop here due to the restriction. I might try to finish tonight but probably tomorrow. Thanks

 

[rogerg]

John 3:17 is also speaking of THIS world.
Do you think Jesus might be judging the world to come??
Of course not.

[Jhn 3:17 KJV] 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Wait - I don't understand, --isn't this saying Jesus was not to condemn? Both worlds are in view in verse:
the "condemn the world": is this world
"world through him might be saved": the world to come
had not Christ come into this world, and successfully completed His offering, then the world to come could never either have been brought into existence, or if it had been, it would be governed by law of sin and death as this one is.
Unsure about which of them it is

Jesus died for everyone....1 John 2:2
Everyone in the world.
Whoever wishes to be saved may do so by believing in Christ.
He will not be judged, but those that do not believe are judged already because we are born lost and need salvation.
It's unfortunate that we read into verses what is not there.
Salvation is personal...it is not world-wide as you seem to believe in having to decide which world is saved.
In the future there will be no more talk about salvation since all those in the new earth will be saved and this discussion will end.

No, that's an impossibility. Had Christ died for everyone's sins then everyone MUST be saved, which, we know they haven't been. Only those names written into the Lamb's book of life at the foundation of the world, will be saved.
The "our" in 2:2 pertains only applies to those saved and to no one else:

[Phl 4:3 KJV] 3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.

[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Salvation is personal...it is not world-wide as you seem to believe in having to decide which world is saved.
In the future there will be no more talk about salvation since all those in the new earth will be saved and this discussion will end.

If the world to come is saved, then by the same means, are also those who are to inhabit it saved, and visa versa. All because of Christ alone -- without His offering, the salvation of neither could have happened: one offering for both.

Yes!
I think so. I don't know of ANY denomination that teaches what you are stating.

Can't help that, But, everything, everything I state can be traced back to, and has originated from one basic and overriding tenet/doctrine: that Jesus Christ alone is Savior

Of course nothing unclean will enter into heaven.
But this is taken care of in THIS world.
Those that believe now...will be the residents of the new earth.

Christ's sacrifice as the Lamb of God, actually occurred in heaven, not earth. The Holiest of All is in heaven not on earth (which only Christ was able to enter into, thereby becoming high priest). As high priest in heaven, He became the mediator between those saved and God
Christ's offering to the Father occurred on the cross on earth which completed it, but unsure what you have
in mind with the "taken care of"? What are the implications of that - sorry I don't follow?

He will not be judged, but those that do not believe are judged already because we are born lost and need salvation.
It's unfortunate that we read into verses what is not there.
Salvation is personal...it is not world-wide as you seem to believe in having to decide which world is saved.
In the future there will be no more talk about salvation since all those in the new earth will be saved and this discussion will end.

"not there"? sorry, not sure what you mean by that statement either ? please clarify which are not there - thanks
Depends what you mean by "personal"? were it left up to us, no one would become saved:

[Act 28:27 KJV] 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Respectfully, I think you misunderstand my point. I do not believe the granting of salvation is world-wide, period. I believe solely that God grants it to whomever He has chosen to, but it can, and must, only come to them from God, and not as a work of our own. I think what you may have misunderstood, is that salvation, or judgment depending, is manifested based upon which law one is under: the law of the spirit of life in Christ, or, the law of sin and death. Christ's offering placed those whom He had chosen to save under the law of life in Christ(basically for those, removing them from under the law that causes sin and death - thereby granting them life everlasting). All others, having been born under the law of sin and death, will remain there until the end, for judgment.

Please, wondering, read the below verses carefully - thx

[Rom 5:12-13
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[Rom 10:4 KJV]
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Without the law, there can be no sin as it cannot be imputed. Without sin there can be no judgment

[1Co 15:56 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.



[Col 2:13-14 KJV] 13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Then again, I may be wrong about all of this.

 

[Butch5]

No, that's an impossibility. Had Christ died for everyone's sins then everyone MUST be saved, which, we know they haven't been.

Why is that?

 

[rogerg]

Roger, no disrespect, this doesnt make sense The New World to come doesnt need to be saved from sin. And to quote Rom 8:2 I see no relevance for that friend. Thats talking about a sinner being saved in this life.

None taken, brightframe52 and thanks for your reply.
No, you're correct, the world to come didn't need to be saved from sin (as though it was already there and judged) --
it needed to be protected from the law of sin and death If I implied otherwise, then I didn't state very well what I intended to. The law of sin and death was to not be permitted reign over it . The law of Christ is what denied it.
God decreed the law of Christ; Christ's offering brought it to fruition - just as Adam's and Eve's transgression brought to fruition the law of sin and death.

[Rev 21:27
KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


It seems to me they became "dead to the law" - the law of sin and death- through Christ's sacrifice as the Lamb of God in heaven and by His offering on the cross, which placed then under the auspices of law of life in Christ. They were taken out from reign of one law (the bad one), and placed under the reign of another one (the good one).
Please see Rom 8:2 following

[Rom 7:4 KJV]
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

But.. then again I could be completely wrong about all of this

 

[rogerg]

Why is that?

Because everyone would be saved?

 

[Butch5]

Because everyone would be saved?

That's what I'm asking. Why would everyone be saved?