brightfame52
2024 Supporter
I dont believe that and scripture never says that.He tasted death for all mankind. That's the context the statement was made in. He tasted death for all so that He could bring many sons to glory.
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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I dont believe that and scripture never says that.He tasted death for all mankind. That's the context the statement was made in. He tasted death for all so that He could bring many sons to glory.
rogerg
With all due respect, what one believes doesn't bear on Scripture. Paul is explaining how God had set man over the creation. Man messed it up and Paul tells us in so many words that Christ came to fix it. In the he says that Christ tasted death for all. He'd just said how God had put man over creation. That context in which Paul made the statement that Christ tested death for allI dont believe that and scripture never says that.
Gods chastening of His Children isnt His Wrath, Its correction out of Love and its life long. I would be careful in saying God reacts to creatures, if anything they react to Him, His Purpose.rogerg
I will throw in my 2 cents worth on this one. (In other words, I'm not sure)
God is immutable, therefore His love (favor) for those he selected before the foundation of the earth does not change. (Jacob I loved before being born)
God created time and He condescends to our level to react to events in time. So, though He always loves His chosen children from eternity past, He treats us differently in time according to events. He treats us with wrath (discipline) because of our nature imputed from Adam. When we are regenerated we now have Christ's IMPUTED nature (IN CHRIST) and are treated in time as such with love.
So, God immutably in eternity loves (favors) us and as evidence we are regenerated despite our initial nature which he abhors in time.
Hmmm, interesting question. I can't say I 'love' my answer.
Please post the scripture that says “they who are able her and believe the true Gospel can only do so because they first were saved.”
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
If means there is a condition that must be met, in order to receive the result of the promise of salvation.
The condition is believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.
Now if you believe there is another way for a person to be saved, then please post the scripture so we can all examine your doctrine to see if it is biblical or not.
Thanks much Fastfredy0, I'll give it a try now - RogerSo, this way you can address part of a person post ... then a 2nd part .. and so on... keep trying, you will get it.
Jesus said that he had only come to the lost sheep of the house Israel. How then do you apply His word beyond that? His words in verse 12 are a reference to the words of Isaiah."Please post the scripture that says “they who are able her and believe the true Gospel can only do so because they first were saved.”
I don't recall saying they must be first saved, I don't think I would have said that, but could have made a mistake. If I said 'saved" I probably should have said "elected". Anyway, please see the following. Who would you say those verses
pertain to, for those who see, and those who will never see?
[Mar 4:10-12 KJV]
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
" if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
Well, taking into consideration Mar 4:10 - 12 (above), we can see that only unto those unto to whom it had FIRST been GIVEN can know the mystery of the kingdom. Those "without" will never be able to know it.
So, if they can never "know", then how can they truly "confess" as they would have to "know" in order to confess?
"Now if you believe there is another way for a person to be saved, then please post the scripture so we can all examine your doctrine to see if it is biblical or not."
I sure do believe there is another way -- that God has to have chosen you and then saves you according to His good pleasure -- all His work, not ours. This is why Jesus has the title of Savior, and we don't. That's all I'm saying: that Christ ALONE is the Savior, Anything other than that, we are working for salvation and:
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
and
[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Hope my reply is understandable. If not, please let me know and I'll try to clarify. Thx
I guess we see different in Acts 13:48 as I understand it to say all those who were ordained to eternal life had to believe first as I have to go back to John 3:16 as how can anyone have eternal life first and then believe. It's like putting the cart before the horse which gets you nothing.[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Please notice that it doesn't say "and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life". It says "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". I think this means that first-and-foremost, comes having been ordained by God individually to eternal life as prerequisite to, and motivation for, the above. Ordination to eternal life first, all belief/actions resulting from that second. But just to expound a little further, all who were ordained at some point call (put a name upon) the Lord. This is a result of being ordained. Those ordained are alone those who will become saved.
I'll try to reply to your five points above in the next day or two. thx.
Define wrath.Gods chastening of His Children isnt His Wrath, Its correction out of Love and its life long
God ordained all things. From that eternal prospective He never reacts. In His plan which includes the creation of time He reacts from a human prospective according to His plan which is eternal.. I would be careful in saying God reacts to creatures, if anything they react to Him, His Purpose
Define wrath.
God ordained all things. From that eternal prospective He never reacts. In His plan which includes the creation of time He reacts from a human prospective according to His plan which is eternal.
God is self determined. All things are eternally determined. From God's prospective He reacts in time according to what He self determined in eternity.
I figured if God had use amphomorphisms, so can I.I still would not say God reacts
My pleasure to respond - we're all motivated here to truly understand God's word so it great to hear different points of view.
We know the carnal mind is a hostile enemy (enmity) against the Spirit and can not perceive Spiritual things.You didn't another my question. There is no scripture telling how one is saved without hearing of Christ. We both know that. (not talking about O.T. saints)
Thus your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is either FALSE. (or at best an speculation to validate the belief that because God loves everyone without exception; therefore by default, He must provide another gospel to save those who have never heard of Christ.)
Your question conflates a 'rational mind' with 'carnal logic'. This is a false premise.
Carnal is defined as "relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites gluttony and other carnal activities."
Rational is based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
We know God is rational. If He is not then we cannot understand Him. We know God is not carnal. Therefore, conflating the terms 'carnal' and 'rational' is not reasonable (rational). Therefore, your question needs to be reworded.
Aside: A rational mind is one in sync with truth by definition. It is rational to believe God for He is truth. Our sin (carnal) nature causes us to not seek God and this is not rational. It is wrong to conflate 'rational' and 'carnal'. (Apples and oranges)
Aside: Just because we are carnal does not mean we cannot be rational at times. It is rational to think 1+1=2. All people, irregardless of their cardinality can be rational at times. It is wrong to conflate 'rational' and 'carnal'. (Apples and oranges)
Yes, but not in a way that one can be saved. I believe God speaks to almost everyone to give them an idea of 'right and wrong' (Romans 2:14). God tells everyone that He exists (Romans 1:20).
But again, you avoid your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him". There is no scripture to support your statement. You infer there is another gospel than Paul's by which those who never heard of Christ are saved. You are deflecting again; we are talking about 'hearing of Christ that leads to salvation' and not 'knowing God exists'.
God is all powerful. Of course He could do something to save those that have not heard the gospel. But He has not. There is the gospel of Paul saying we are saved by faith and Christ and Paul said: Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction!
You are proposing another gospel (which you can't define) and Paul warns against this. You are grasping at straws again. Tell me of this OTHER GOSPEL to save men. Perhaps it is more efficient than Paul's gospel. You said God gives everyone a opportunity to repent and turn to him ... please, please, please tell us how that works, give us the specifics.
GIVE ME THE GOSPEL according to for_his_glory whereby these people are saved. Example: A person who has never heard of Christ can be saved if he throw to pebbles over his shoulder as an act of faith.
Not needed to prove/disprove your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him". As we are more familiar with how people are saved today, we can talk more effectively with this knowledge in regard to your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him".
Agreed.
... and I heard reports from the Mormons that Christ came to North America. But ignoring the credulity of the missionaries story; and for the sake of argument, I concede these people have heard from of Christ. But we KNOW that many people are dead that never heard of Christ. You said: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him", so referring to people that heard of Christ does not address your statement.
We KNOW there are many people who have NEVER heard of Christ. We know we are saved by faith in Christ. Therefore, we know you statement ""He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is false. You deny indisputable truth because it contradicts your understanding of God methods that you have worked so hard to learn from your studies. (aside: your knowledge of God is superior)
And the evidence is indisputable that the Father has not drawn men who have not heard of Christ in a way that leads to salvation ... unless one invents a new gospel which Paul warns against.
Agreed. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned. Notice the prerequisite; EVERY MAN THE HATH HEARD. Since many men have not heard they will NOT come to him. Thus your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is contrary to scripture. Scripture says YOU HAVE TO HEAR to be saved; you say we that there is some mysterious way people that have not heard the salvific gospel from men hear it from God, but present only mystical, vague innuendos of evidence.
The evidence is indisputable. People have died and not heard of Christ. Since this is necessary for salvation, our statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is false. The verse says "shall be", which is future tense so is not relevant to those who are dead a never heard of Christ.
You did say this back in Post #144 and several other times throughout this thread. Have you now changed your mind as you are contradicting yourselfI don't recall saying they must be first saved, I don't think I would have said that, but could have made a mistake.
All well and good and I am in general agreement. BUT ....We know the carnal mind is a hostile enemy (enmity) against the Spirit and can not perceive Spiritual things.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Can a rational mind understand heavenly things, no. Even though our human mind cannot comprehend the whole mystery of God, He let Himself to be grasped by our mind. No human mind can fully understand God, but to those who are opened to enter into His mystery He will reveal himself enough to give you the certitude conviction that He is real.
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Belief in God is rational only if there is sufficient evidence for the existence of God, but the carnal mind can not rationalize God for it will not allow the mystery of God to be revealed. This is why many refuse to hear His word that has gone out into the world through every generation. Is it God's fault that they did not hear, or is it their own fault as many quit seeking Him. Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God, yet many refuse to hear His still small voice calling them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
No one can stand before God in His judgement without excuse.
Sorry, not exactly sure what you mean? Those ordained to eternal life believed, that was the point of the verse, but to do so they had to be ordained first. According to your interpretation, if belief was a prerequisite to/for being ordained, shouldn't the verse read "those who believed were ordained to eternal life" or "ordained to eternal life when they believed"? In other words, they COULDN"T have believed prior to Paul's statement because they didn't know the Gospel beforehand. The verse says neither of those. Those who are not ordained can never know the Gospel, so,I guess we see different in Acts 13:48 as I understand it to say all those who were ordained to eternal life had to believe first as I have to go back to John 3:16 as how can anyone have eternal life first and then believe. It's like putting the cart before the horse which gets you nothing.
All I can go by is Matthew 24:14; Romans 10:13-17; 1:20. Plus the word has gone out into the world since the day of Pentecost that all have a chance to hear, but generation to generation have shut their ears to the preaching of the Gospel. God said no one will stand before Him without excuse.All well and good and I am in general agreement. BUT ....
You didn't answer my question. There is no scripture telling how one is saved without hearing of Christ. Scripture only says salvific faith cometh by hearing. We both know that. Yet you insist everyone will have an opportunity to repent and turn to God ..... HOW, HOW, HOW, HOW do those who will never hear of Christ be saved?
WHAT is the gospel according to For_His_Glory
If you don't know or don't want to support your statement of the possibly of salvation for those that have not heard of Christ, just say so and I will drop the question.
Hi Roger,[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Please notice that it doesn't say "and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life". It says "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". I think this means that first-and-foremost, comes having been ordained by God individually to eternal life as prerequisite to, and motivation for, the above. Ordination to eternal life first, all belief/actions resulting from that second. But just to expound a little further, all who were ordained at some point call (put a name upon) the Lord. This is a result of being ordained. Those ordained are alone those who will become saved.
I'll try to reply to your five points above in the next day or two. thx.