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Tasted Death for every Man !

rogerg said:
So, are you saying you think there will be no ultimate judgement of the unsaved at the end of time?
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Of course there is judgment. Mat 25:32-46 makes that very clear.

The question, rather, is what part of the "unsaved" man is being judged by Christ.

In the parable, Jesus uses the term "nations" being gathered together and then divided like a shepherd that divides "sheep" from "goats". This is the day of division.

The nations represent the two kingdoms of the soul (flesh and spirit) that are divided from each other:

1) The body of death, called the "flesh" or carnal nature of man (the goat), from
2) The spirit of man, the breath of life from God (the sheep).

The "flesh" that works lawlessness/iniquity perishes in judgment to the saving of the spirit. Paul actually gave us an example of an "unsaved" person being judged to the saving of the spirit in the day of the Lord Jesus (1Co chapter 5).
 
TahitiRun said:
The nations represent the two kingdoms of the soul (flesh and spirit) that are divided from each other:

1) The body of death, called the "flesh" or carnal nature of man, from
2) The spirit of man (the breath of life from God).

The "flesh" that works lawlessness/iniquity perishes in judgment to the saving of the spirit. Paul actually gave us an example of an "unsaved" person being judged to the saving of the spirit in the day of the Lord Jesus (1Co chapte
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The two kingdoms are: 1) those for whom the inheritance was specifically reserved from before the foundation of the world: the elect, and 2) those having no inheritance: the non-elect. Notice the "for you" in v4. It (the inheritance) - was reserved specifically for those alone. So, if the inheritance was specifically reserved for certain ones, then those for whom there is no inheritance is because it was not reserved for them, and they therefore cannot be saved spiritually nor otherwise, and they then represent the other side of the coin, making them also part of the "all things".
So, when you say, "perishes in judgment to the saving of the spirit", do you mean the spirits of everyone will be
saved in the day of the Lord? If so, then that would contradict v4, as the salvation of the spirit is a part of the reserved inheritance.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
TahitiRun said:
Read 2Co 5:19-20.
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Those verses pertain only to those "in Christ", not to everyone.
So, by that, the "reconciling the world" part, represents the world to come. This current world, and all who remain in it, will be destroyed.

[2Co 5:17-20 KJV]
17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
 
TahitiRun said:
Christ's death redeems/reconciles all things, including evil angels, Satan, etc., in the heavenly places, as stated in these two texts:

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

All things in Col 1:16, and further defined in Eph 6:12, were created in, through and for Christ but were also reconciled to God through Christ's death:

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself—having made peace through the blood of his cross—through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

We just don't see all these things (such as unbelievers, evil angels, etc.) being subjected to him, as yet:

Heb 2:8 all things Thou didst put in subjection under his feet,' for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected, and now not yet do we see the all things subjected to him,

And Calvinism, as well as you, are wrong to deny what scripture clearly states.

Regarding Heb 2:16: The Gk. text is: οὐ γὰρ δήπου ἀγγέλων ἐπιλαμβάνεται, ἀλλὰ σπέρματος ᾿Αβραὰμ ἐπιλαμβάνεται.

It simply states that Christ did not come only for angels to lay hold of (as to help angels only, ie: spiritual beings only), but rather Christ was made like the seed of Abraham, in the flesh, like the brethren, as stated in following verse:

Heb 2:17 wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,

The Heb 2:16 passage doesn't deny any benefits achieved by the death of Christ for angels. It can't. It would need to contradict all the scriptures that speak of the all things, evil angels included, that were reconciled to God in Christ.

For the record: I'm not here to promote universalism, if scripture does that, so be it. I like to promote Christ and the glory of the Gospel to all His creation. I'm surprised you would tell someone to leave for doing that.
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This is false teaching friend.
 
TahitiRun said:
All mankind has been objectively reconciled. However, not yet subjectively.
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Thats false the objectively reconciled shall be saved by His Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
rogerg said:
The two kingdoms are: 1) those for whom the inheritance was specifically reserved from before the foundation of the world: the elect, and 2) those having no inheritance: the non-elect. Notice the "for you" in v4. It (the inheritance) - was reserved specifically for those alone. So, if the inheritance was specifically reserved for certain ones, then those for whom there is no inheritance is because it was not reserved for them, and they therefore cannot be saved spiritually nor otherwise, and they then represent the other side of the coin, making them also part of the "all things".
So, when you say, "perishes in judgment to the saving of the spirit", do you mean the spirits of everyone will be
saved in the day of the Lord? If so, then that would contradict v4, as the salvation of the spirit is a part of the reserved inheritance.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Click to expand...
When Peter say's for you, he's not speaking of the fleshly/carnal/natural entity of man. And perhaps this is are disagreement.

When I use the term "flesh" I'm not speaking of the physical body per se, but rather the bodies earthly and carnal nature. This element of the body that Paul calls the "flesh" (Rom 7:18 and 7:24 for example "the body of this death") was derived from the earth and made man subject to vanity:

Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope,

The flesh was never to be part of redemption or reconciled to God. For flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The "flesh" is dead and at enmity with God:

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
Rom 8:6 for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit—life and peace;
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

Jesus tells us that the "flesh" profits nothing:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

All human beings (including those referenced by Peter) consist of both body (and it's carnal/natural "flesh" nature) derived from the earth and spirit (breath of life) derived from God. (Gen 2:7).

Is it your belief that the very breath of God (the spirit of man) is to be destroyed in judgment?
 
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brightfame52 said:
Thats false the objectively reconciled shall be saved by His Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
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Agreed. All have been objectively reconciled to God ["we were (aorist participle) reconciled"] and will be saved (future tense indicative mood) by His life.

Do you understand what the phrase objectively reconciled means?
 
brightfame52 said:
This is false teaching friend.
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It's what scripture tells us. And it's what you are unwilling to believe.
brightfame52 said:
This is false teaching friend.
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You can repeat that a thousand times and scripture will still state the following:

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

People, such as yourself, will come and go, but these scriptures will always remain true.
 
TahitiRun said:
Agreed. All have been objectively reconciled to God ["we were (aorist participle) reconciled"] and will be saved (future tense indicative mood) by His life.

Do you understand what the phrase objectively reconciled means?
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Those who are objectively reconciled by His death, shall be subjectively reconciled by His death. Do you believe that ? If you do, and you believe Christ died for all mankind, then you believe in universalism, is that what you believe ?
 
TahitiRun said:
It's what scripture tells us. And it's what you are unwilling to believe.

You can repeat that a thousand times and scripture will still state the following:

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

People, such as yourself, will come and go, but these scriptures will always remain true.
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Are you a universalist and believe all mankind will be saved ? Yes or No, dont be scared to own up to it if you are.
 
rogerg said:
Those verses pertain only to those "in Christ", not to everyone.
So, by that, the "reconciling the world" part, represents the world to come. This current world, and all who remain in it, will be destroyed.

[2Co 5:17-20 KJV]
17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
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Actually, everyone was created "in Christ" (Col 1:16). For we all live move and have our being in Him (Act 17:28). And that goes for believers as well as the unbelieving pagans (Greeks) that Paul spoke to in Athens (on Mars Hill).

Regarding 2Co 5:17: Do you see the brackets around the terms [be] and [he is] as well as the coma and colon punctuation inserted by the translators? They're not in the Gk. text. The text reads:

If any man in Christ is a new creature old things are passed away.....

Not all in Christ are new creatures as yet. However, if anyone is a new creature in Christ (that is: Christ in them) then the old things are passed away, etc. There are two elements in play. Us in Christ, of which all humanity is through the act of creation itself, and Christ in us, of which only those of faith can claim.
 
TahitiRun said:
When Peter say's for you, he's not speaking of the fleshly/carnal/natural entity of man. And perhaps this is are disagreement.

When I use the term "flesh" I'm not speaking of the physical body per se, but rather the bodies earthly and carnal nature. This element of the body that Paul calls the "flesh" (Rom 7:18 and 7:24 for example "the body of this death") was derived from the earth and made man subject to vanity:

Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject—not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it —in hope,

The flesh was never to be part of redemption or reconciled to God. For flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The "flesh" is dead and at enmity with God:

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
Rom 8:6 for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit—life and peace;
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

Jesus tells us that the "flesh" profits nothing:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

All human beings (including those referenced by Peter) consist of both body (and it's carnal/natural "flesh" nature) derived from the earth and spirit (breath of life) derived from God. (Gen 2:7).

Is it your belief that the very breath of God (the spirit of man) is to be destroyed in judgment?
Click to expand...

It is my belief that until and unless becoming born again as a result of salvation by God, that natural man is already dead spiritually, and that we are all born into that spiritual state. Notice in the below verses, man is already dead, and in order for him to gain spiritual life, it must be given to him by God... but it is not so given to everyone. God didn't loosely choose words to use in the Bible - so when He says "dead", He means just that: dead, dead. And that
spiritual life only happens AFTER, or as a result of, one's trespasses and sins being forgiven, not before (btw, I'm sure you already know this, but just to be sure, to be quickened means to be given life).

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 
brightfame52 said:
Those who are objectively reconciled by His death, shall be subjectively reconciled by His death. Do you believe that ? If you do, and you believe Christ died for all mankind, then you believe in universalism, is that what you believe ?
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Universalism teaches, to the best of my knowledge, that the flesh is, was or will be reconciled to God. And that is not what I believe scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that the flesh was not, is not and cannot be reconciled to God.

As for Rom 5:10: Here it is:

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

There are four verbs found in the text, two of the verbs are primary and the other two work relative to the main verbs:

1. Being enemies (Present participle)
2. Have been reconciled (Aorist indicative)
3. Having been reconciled (Aorist participle)
4. Shall be saved (Future indicative)

The text in Rom 5:10 does not address "subjective reconciliation". It's simply looking at it from a single perspective, wherein God reconciled us to Himself (objectively) through the death of His Son. There is no mention of faith wherein we reconcile ourselves to God (subjectively) through faith.

Do you understand any of this?
 
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