Tasted Death for every Man !

[rogerg]

Not all in Christ are new creatures as yet. However, if anyone is a new creature in Christ (that is: Christ in them) then the old things are passed away, etc. There are two elements in play. Us in Christ, of which all humanity is through the act of creation itself, and Christ in us, of which only those of faith can claim.

I don't believe there to be any "us in Christ through the act of creation itself". Just the opposite in fact, we are all estranged from God from the womb and that because of the law of sin and death within us, which all are born under - no one is automatically born into Christ. Respectfully, I think it a false distinction to make of "us in Christ", as opposed to "Christ in us".
Those who are in Christ, are, only because they are of the elect and have become saved. Please observe that in Romans 8:2, it is only by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, that someone is taken from under the law of sin and death and placed under Christ - not all are, neither will all be.

[Psa 58:3 KJV]
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you understand why you're not correct? I gave you the scriptures as to why you are wrong. Did you read them?

I gave scripture as to why Im correct and you are wrong.

 

[brightfame52]

Universalism teaches, to the best of my knowledge, that the flesh is, was or will be reconciled to God. And that is not what I believe scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that the flesh was not, is not and cannot be reconciled to God.

As for Rom 5:10: Here it is:

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

There are four verbs found in the text, two of the verbs are primary and the other two work relative to the main verbs:

1. Being enemies (Present participle)
2. Have been reconciled (Aorist indicative)
3. Having been reconciled (Aorist participle)
4. Shall be saved (Future indicative)

The text in Rom 5:10 does not address "subjective reconciliation". It's simply looking at it from a single perspective, wherein God reconciled us to Himself (objectively) through the death of His Son. There is no mention of faith wherein we reconcile ourselves to God (subjectively) through faith.

Do you understand any of this?

Those who are objectively reconciled by His death, shall be subjectively reconciled by His Life. Do you believe that ? If you do, and you believe Christ died for all mankind, then you believe in universalism, is that what you believe ?

I meant to say as the verse stated, Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[TahitiRun]

It is my belief that until and unless becoming born again as a result of salvation by God, that natural man is already dead spiritually, and that we are all born into that spiritual state. Notice in the below verses, man is already dead, and in order for him to gain spiritual life, it must be given to him by God... but it is not so given to everyone. God didn't loosely choose words to use in the Bible - so when He says "dead", He means just that: dead, dead. And that
spiritual life only happens AFTER, or as a result of, one's trespasses and sins being forgiven, not before (btw, I'm sure you already know this, but just to be sure, to be quickened means to be given life).

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

None of this addresses the scriptures I posted. I agree that man is dead to his spirit until regenerated from God. However, that does not mean that the spirit of man (the breath of life) is dead within him. And there is a difference.

Do you understand what the breath of life is and what it's meaning is in Gen 2:7 with respect to man becoming a living being?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your thinking on this subject is decidedly rooted in Calvin's theology, and along the line of Augustine's and Plato's teachings with regards to what constitutes man/soul. Augustine and Calvin both interpreted and understood the being of man (and much of what scripture teaches concerning man, such as soul, judgment, hell, the atonement, etc.) through the eye's of Greek culture, reasoning and philosophy rather than having the mind of Christ (Judaism, ie: being of the tribe of Judah).

Luke even records such events of Paul encountering the Hellenists (the precussors to Augustine's teachings and Calvin's theology), here:

Act 9:29 and speaking boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, he was both speaking and disputing with the Hellenists, and they were taking in hand to kill him,

Calvin and Augustine both behaved and thought like the Hellenists of old. In particular Calvin did so with his disputes against Servetus and partaking in the sentencing of Servetus' death for disagreeing with him regarding the trinity and other points of theology he held to. Jesus warned us about men such as Calvin, here:

Mat 7:18 A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.
Mat 7:19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
Mat 7:20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.

As did John, here:

1Jn 3:15 Every one who is hating his brother—a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining,

 

[TahitiRun]

I gave scripture as to why Im correct and you are wrong.

And, I read them and you're still wrong.

 

[TahitiRun]

Those who are objectively reconciled by His death, shall be subjectively reconciled by His Life. Do you believe that ? If you do, and you believe Christ died for all mankind, then you believe in universalism, is that what you believe ?

I meant to say as the verse stated, Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I already told you what universalism, as I know it, teaches. And, I told you that I do not agree with what they teach.

I believe exactly what Rom 5:10 tells us. That we have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and will be saved (future tense) by His life. Those are two separate events that happen at two different times.

May I ask you a question without being offensive: Why are you moderating a forum that you know so little of?

 

[TahitiRun]

Are you a universalist and believe all mankind will be saved ? Yes or No, dont be scared to own up to it if you are.

It's not a question that can be given a "yes" or "no" answer to. And it's folly to think so.

For the record: I'm not "scared", and I'm certainly not afraid of you.

Additionally, I have nothing to "own up to" as you put it. And yes, I believe scripture teaches that all things were created in and for Christ (Col 1:16) and that God, in the end, will be the all in all (1Co 15:28).

 

[brightfame52]

And, I read them and you're still wrong.

No I'm not wrong

 

[brightfame52]

I already told you what universalism, as I know it, teaches. And, I told you that I do not agree with what they teach.

I believe exactly what Rom 5:10 tells us. That we have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and will be saved (future tense) by His life. Those are two separate events that happen at two different times.

May I ask you a question without being offensive: Why are you moderating a forum that you know so little of?

Yes they are different but they both have to happen. Those who are objectively reconciled by His Death shall be saved or subjectively reconciled by His life.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not a question that can be given a "yes" or "no" answer to. And it's folly to think so.

For the record: I'm not "scared", and I'm certainly not afraid of you.

Additionally, I have nothing to "own up to" as you put it. And yes, I believe scripture teaches that all things were created in and for Christ (Col 1:16) and that God, in the end, will be the all in all (1Co 15:28).

I'm asking you one more time, do you believe all mankind will be saved from their sins? Yes or No. Don't be scared to answer.

 

[rogerg]

None of this addresses the scriptures I posted. I agree that man is dead to his spirit until regenerated from God. However, that does not mean that the spirit of man (the breath of life) is dead within him. And there is a difference.

That's not what I said. What I said was that man is spiritually dead until being made spiritually alive, not that he is dead to his spirit until being made alive. Until becoming saved, the only breath of life man has is in the physical realm, not in the spiritual realm.

Do you understand what the breath of life is and what it's meaning is in Gen 2:7 with respect to man becoming a living being?

Yes, and I know the breath of life given in Gen 2:7 was before the fall of Adam and Eve. After the fall, however, everything changed. Adam and Eve then died spiritually. You cannot assess after the fall spiritual reality by using before the fall biblical verses. It is evident that God told Adam he would surely die if he ate the fruit of the tree. It is equally evident that Adam did not die physically after eating of the tree so it can only be that Adam died spiritually instead.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your thinking on this subject is decidedly rooted in Calvin's theology, and along the line of Augustine's and Plato's teachings with regards to what constitutes man/soul. Augustine and Calvin both interpreted and understood the being of man (and much of what scripture teaches concerning man, such as soul, judgment, hell, the atonement, etc.) through the eye's of Greek culture, reasoning and philosophy rather than having the mind of Christ (Judaism, ie: being of the tribe of Judah).

Rooted in biblical theology namely, and singularly, that Christ alone is the Saviour - man is not.
I use nothing for biblical interpretation besides the Bible itself. The Bible informs us that
it, in and of itself and alone, is the only sufficient source that can be used for an understanding God's gospel message.

Calvin and Augustine both behaved and thought like the Hellenists of old. In particular Calvin did so with his disputes against Servetus and partaking in the sentencing of Servetus' death for disagreeing with him regarding the trinity and other points of theology he held to. Jesus warned us about men such as Calvin, here:

Mat 7:18 A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.
Mat 7:19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
Mat 7:20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.

As did John, here:

1Jn 3:15 Every one who is hating his brother—a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining,

Yeah, I know, I've heard all that stuff many times before about Calvin being a murder, etc. It means nothing to me as
I use only the Bible alone andin its entirety, and nothing besides it. It may be, however, that in using the Bible, and finding its truth that we (Calvin and I) have both reached many of the same spiritual/doctrinal conclusions - it seems like we may have but I don't know for certain. In any event, I believe that I've provided biblical substantiation/validation for most if not all of the points of my posts that I've thus far made, using nothing but the Bible alone to do so. Not to be rude, but could it perhaps be you who doesn't understand the gospel? If your perceptions of salvation doctrine are based upon anything besides Christ as the gospel's foundation, apex, and everything in between, thereby leaving nothing for man to do for salvation, then perhaps you have missed it. If you do believe that He alone, fully and completely is all of those things, then perhaps we just are just miscommunicating somehow.

 

[TahitiRun]

I don't believe there to be any "us in Christ through the act of creation itself". Just the opposite in fact, we are all estranged from God from the womb and that because of the law of sin and death within us, which all are born under - no one is automatically born into Christ. Respectfully, I think it a false distinction to make of "us in Christ", as opposed to "Christ in us".
Those who are in Christ, are, only because they are of the elect and have become saved. Please observe that in Romans 8:2, it is only by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, that someone is taken from under the law of sin and death and placed under Christ - not all are, neither will all be.

[Psa 58:3 KJV]
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Well, than you do not believe Col 1:16 or Act 17:28.

None of the texts you've cited, including Rom 8:2, state contrary to the fact that all are created in Christ and that all live, move and have their being "in" Him. All of those verbs in Act 17:28 (live, move and being) are used in the present tense indicative mood. There is simply no way to dismiss what scripture teaches on the subject.

The dogma of Calvinism will simply not allow you to believe it, however.

 

[TahitiRun]

Yes they are different but they both have to happen. Those who are objectively reconciled by His Death shall be saved or subjectively reconciled by His life.

Yes, and both events will happen. Just not for the flesh. Man consists of both "flesh" and "spirit". Do you understand what Paul said, here?:

1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It's of little value to continue this discussion. You simply are not able to believe.

 

[TahitiRun]

That's not what I said. What I said was that man is spiritually dead until being made spiritually alive, not that he is dead to his spirit until being made alive. Until becoming saved, the only breath of life man has is in the physical realm, not in the spiritual realm.

Yes, and I know the breath of life given in Gen 2:7 was before the fall of Adam and Eve. After the fall, however, everything changed. Adam and Eve then died spiritually. You cannot assess after the fall spiritual reality by using before the fall biblical verses. It is evident that God told Adam he would surely die if he ate the fruit of the tree. It is equally evident that Adam did not die physically after eating of the tree so it can only be that Adam died spiritually instead.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Rooted in biblical theology namely, and singularly, that Christ alone is the Saviour - man is not.
I use nothing for biblical interpretation besides the Bible itself. The Bible informs us that
it, in and of itself and alone, is the only sufficient source that can be used for an understanding God's gospel message.

Yeah, I know, I've heard all that stuff many times before about Calvin being a murder, etc. It means nothing to me as
I use only the Bible alone andin its entirety, and nothing besides it. It may be, however, that in using the Bible, and finding its truth that we (Calvin and I) have both reached many of the same spiritual/doctrinal conclusions - it seems like we may have but I don't know for certain. In any event, I believe that I've provided biblical substantiation/validation for most if not all of the points of my posts that I've thus far made, using nothing but the Bible alone to do so. Not to be rude, but could it perhaps be you who doesn't understand the gospel? If your perceptions of salvation doctrine are based upon anything besides Christ as the gospel's foundation, apex, and everything in between, thereby leaving nothing for man to do for salvation, then perhaps you have missed it. If you do believe that He alone, fully and completely is all of those things, then perhaps we just are just miscommunicating somehow.

I'm not able to use the multi quote so I'll have to answer you the best I can from one post.

You need to read Gen 7:22, after the fall.

Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit—of all that is in the dry land—have died.

The literal Heb. is: "breath of life spirit". The spirit of man is alive after the fall. The KJV did not render the text correctly and the very reason you believe as you do.

The spirit of man is called the candle of the Lord that searches the inward being of man.

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

The candle of the Lord is not dead. If it was it would not be able to search the inward parts.

As well as here:

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

What changed (after the fall) was man's relationship to his spirit. Not the spirit itself. And yes, the soul/man did die, but not according to the spirit. Think of the soul like you would table salt. Salt is a compound that consists of two elements, those two elements being sodium (Na) and chloride (Cl).

In similar fashion, a living being (or soul, if you will) consists also of two elements. Those two elements being body (with it's nature) and spirit (the breath of life). The soul died in relationship to the spirit. However, the spirit of man still lives and returns to God at death (Ecc 12:7):

Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

And not only. But, the spirit of man finds it's eternal home in God (Christ). I'll quote the RSVA because it renders the Hebrew text faithfully, unlike the KJV:

Ecc 12:5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along and desire fails; because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets;

Regarding the Gospel: I do understand the Gospel. 1Co 15:1-4. And, I know that I do. The Spirit of Christ testifies to my spirit that He died for me and that I'm His. Is there anything I've posted to the contrary that would make you believe otherwise?

 

[rogerg]

Well, than you do not believe Col 1:16 or Act 17:28.

None of the texts you've cited, including Rom 8:2, state contrary to the fact that all are created in Christ and that all live, move and have their being "in" Him. All of those verbs in Act 17:28 (live, move and being) are used in the present tense indicative mood. There is simply no way to dismiss what scripture teaches on the subject.

The dogma of Calvinism will simply not allow you to believe it, however.

Thanks for answering your question to me and telling me what I can believe. From now on, why don't you answer all of them for me and just inform me later of what they are?
Yes, I do believe col 1:16 and Acts 17:28, just as I believe all of the Bible. All things were created for Christ, including those who are not to be saved, so your point for that verse is, what? That Christ must save everyone
because He created everyone? Those who are not to become saved are part of the "all things" too as I explained to you previously.
I don't really get your point with Acts 17:28. I believe it is addressing life temporal and earthly,
not life spiritual and eternal, and don't see how it connects to anything eternal with man formed as a physical, earthly offspring of God. That is why the Bible tells us that to see heaven we must first become born-again. If Acts 17:28 were speaking of the eternal, then there would be no need to become born-again because we were already born once. But,
being born once is insufficient for eternal life - that requires two births: once physical; the second, spiritual.
Why don't you restate the crux of your bottom-line, central-point belief regarding the doctrine that scripture teaches on the subject, which you say cannot be dismissed, so that we can both understand it because I don't?

[Jhn 3:3-5 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[rogerg]

You need to read Gen 7:22, after the fall.

Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit—of all that is in the dry land—have died.

My 7:22 says breath of life; that is, all those who were alive with the breath of life in their nostrils, died -
they were living breathing people but they died.

[Gen 7:22 KJV]
22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

TahitiRun, I'm getting a little tired right now, and so as to not make a careless error, I will defer answering
the remainder of your points until later, possibly tomorrow.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, and both events will happen. Just not for the flesh. Man consists of both "flesh" and "spirit". Do you understand what Paul said, here?:

1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It's of little value to continue this discussion. You simply are not able to believe.

So then if they both shall happen, then Rom 5:10 teaches that everyone Christ died/tasted death for shall be saved. Now all without exception are not going to be saved, since many will enter into the eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his messengers. Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So we going around the circles, Christ didnt taste death for all mankind, but only for the saved on mankind.

 

[TahitiRun]

My 7:22 says breath of life; that is, all those who were alive with the breath of life in their nostrils, died -
they were living breathing people but they died.

[Gen 7:22 KJV]
22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

TahitiRun, I'm getting a little tired right now, and so as to not make a careless error, I will defer answering
the remainder of your points until later, possibly tomorrow.

Yes, I've read the KJV too. It doesn't capture what the Heb. text says.

When the breath of life (the life spirit of man) leaves the body, the body dies (Jam 2:26). However, the spirit itself is not dead. It returns to God (Ecc 12:7).

And this is the point I've tried to communicate. Calvinism (according to the WCF, Chapter 4 article 2) teaches that the soul is immortal. It's not though. The idea of an "immortal soul" is Greek in origin, not Judaic.

When the soul is divided (spirit from body) the soul ends. There is no soul, only it's divided elements remain. It's like taking table salt and dividing it into it's two elements. You end up with sodium and chloride. It's no longer salt. Or, like water and dividing it's components into hydrogen and oxygen. It's no longer water that you drink.

In like manner, when the spirit (breath of life) is divided from the body you no longer have "soul" (a living being). You have a dead body that returns to earth and a spirit that returns to God.

And this is where Calvinism, Augustine, Hellenism and Plato depart from scripture. They simply did not understand Gen 2:7 and it's implications on all of scripture.

 

[TahitiRun]

So then if they both shall happen, then Rom 5:10 teaches that everyone Christ died/tasted death for shall be saved. Now all without exception are not going to be saved, since many will enter into the eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his messengers. Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So we going around the circles, Christ didnt taste death for all mankind, but only for the saved on mankind.

The judgments of Mat 25:34 and Mat 25:41 (that you quoted) pertain to "spirit" and "flesh" respectively. They're the same judgments that Paul pronounced on the unregenerate person in Corinth, here:

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This particular judgment is being spoken against a person defined as "wicked". A worker of iniquity and lawlessness whom David spoke of in Psa 5:5 and Psa 11:5. This person was not only wicked but also "violent" towards his father, by violating his own father's wife in fornication, which even Gentiles are hesitant to do.

1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

If you'll also notice, this particular person is "without", ie: one whom God (Jesus Himself) will judge. He is to be put away for judgment. This is not a "saved" man. This was an unregenerate man, who will be saved in spirit through the destruction of the flesh. This particular individual needs no faith or repentance in this life in-order to be "saved" in judgment. He only needs to die (the day of his division) when flesh returns to dust and the spirit returns to God.

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Those are beautiful words my friend.

 

[TahitiRun]

Thanks for answering your question to me and telling me what I can believe. From now on, why don't you answer all of them for me and just inform me later of what they are?
Yes, I do believe col 1:16 and Acts 17:28, just as I believe all of the Bible. All things were created for Christ, including those who are not to be saved, so your point for that verse is, what? That Christ must save everyone
because He created everyone? Those who are not to become saved are part of the "all things" too as I explained to you previously.
I don't really get your point with Acts 17:28. I believe it is addressing life temporal and earthly,
not life spiritual and eternal, and don't see how it connects to anything eternal with man formed as a physical, earthly offspring of God. That is why the Bible tells us that to see heaven we must first become born-again. If Acts 17:28 were speaking of the eternal, then there would be no need to become born-again because we were already born once. But,
being born once is insufficient for eternal life - that requires two births: once physical; the second, spiritual.
Why don't you restate the crux of your bottom-line, central-point belief regarding the doctrine that scripture teaches on the subject, which you say cannot be dismissed, so that we can both understand it because I don't?

[Jhn 3:3-5 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The importance of Act 17:28 and Col 1:16 cannot be overstated.

Christ is the elect one:

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

All were created in and for Him. All are elect in Him because He (Christ) is the elect one.

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Act 17:28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

Man was not created in and for Christ to be damned or to have His own offspring set on fire. For God is not the God of the dead, but rather the living. For all live unto God.

Regarding Joh 3:3-5: I'll be happy to discuss this another day.

Take care.