Temporal Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Again BB,,,
Please post some scripture to support what you believe.
Without scripture it is just YOUR opinion.

Jesus NEVER said "JUST BELIEVE ME AND DO NOTHING."
Please show where in the N.T. Jesus said this.

I think it's ineffective to approach the argument with them this way.
Not because it's not a good argument, but because they instantly see 'have to work' as works salvation, not knowing that the true Christian has to work by virtue of being a new creation in Christ, not because the Christian must work to earn and keep earning salvation.

Saying a Christian doesn't have to have works to be saved is like saying a person doesn't have to be wet to be swimming. And until they can see that truth they are going to take false comfort in an empty, works-less confession of faith (for fear of 'working' to save themselves) instead of having assurance of salvation in a confession of faith that is accompanied by a changed life.

"...ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation..." - Hebrews 6:7-9

But they are sure the author is wrong and that fruitless ground will also be saved when Jesus comes back. There is no salvation where there is no evidence of salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i am not the Judge of salvation neither are you or anyone else --so the correct answer is i dont know neither do you. a person can say something out of fear and not mean it..do you know anyone who has renounced do you . on this your grasping at straws.once again the funeral i did i had no idea if he was saved.my guess possibly not . so i said the family he is in the hands of A LOVING GOD . WE DIE WE GO TO JUDGMENT were not the judge or is there a scripture that gives us the authority

The Bible tells us who we can consider to be a Christian and who we should not, and it tells us on what basis to draw that conclusion. That's not judging.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'd rather listen to this"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'd rather listen to this"

Do you mean 'listen' to this or 'look' at this?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it's ineffective to approach the argument with them this way.
Not because it's not a good argument, but because they instantly see 'have to work' as works salvation, not knowing that the true Christian has to work by virtue of being a new creation in Christ, not because the Christian must work to earn and keep earning salvation.

Saying a Christian doesn't have to have works to be saved is like saying a person doesn't have to be wet to be swimming. And until they can see that truth they are going to take false comfort in an empty, works-less confession of faith (for fear of 'working' to save themselves) instead of having assurance of salvation in a confession of faith that is accompanied by a changed life.

"...ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation..." - Hebrews 6:7-9

But they are sure the author is wrong and that fruitless ground will also be saved when Jesus comes back. There is no salvation where there is no evidence of salvation.

Agreed, of course.
If we are saved and love God,,,it is SHOWN through our deeds/works.

How else could anyone know of our Christianity if we're just like everyone else?
Jesus taught for over 3 years....what do some believe He taught if not how to behave and how to act in this world?

Jesus stated so clearly that the wise will heed His words and the unwise will not.
Matthew 7:24-27 THE TWO FOUNDATIONS

I don't know about tactics...I just know that God did HIS part,,,
and Jesus shows us how to do ours.

 

[JLB]

i am not the Judge of salvation neither are you or anyone else --so the correct answer is i dont know neither do you. a person can say something out of fear and not mean it..do you know anyone who has renounced do you . on this your grasping at straws.once again the funeral i did i had no idea if he was saved.my guess possibly not . so i said the family he is in the hands of A LOVING GOD . WE DIE WE GO TO JUDGMENT were not the judge or is there a scripture that gives us the authority

It’s not about Judging people Jerry, it’s about understanding what Jesus taught.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13



No one is point the finger at anyone saying your not saved.

Of course, you know this. You like so many others before you, when discussing these things have come to the place where you have no answers, because you refuse to actually address the discussion topic, so you try the blame game and you try to change the subject.

The stakes are too high to be playing these games, Jerry.

If you refuse to understand what Jesus is teaching then stop derailing the discussion with you off topic comments.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is a good example of using one's preconceived doctrine to interpret scripture instead of letting the plain words of the passage speak for themselves. There is no compelling reason to suddenly change the application of 'believe' from that of 'salvation' in vs. 12 to that of 'not really saved' in vs. 13 except to serve a predetermined doctrine.

So very true. Yet I see this pattern over and over, from those who desperately try to redefine the words of scripture, while imposing their man conceived perspective and rules upon the word’s of Christ.

Believe really doesn’t mean believe anymore because....


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd rather listen to this"

Pure filth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Joy is a fruit of the Spirit.
Compare how the saved Thessalonians received the word with joy with how the 2nd type of soil also received the word with joy:

"...you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit." - 1 Thessalonians 1:6

"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13

The problem was not that the word wasn't planted and growing in the 2nd type of soil. The problem was that the word did not go down deep in that soil and could be more easily pulled up, not that it didn't really get received in a genuine salvation.

This is a good example of using one's preconceived doctrine to interpret scripture instead of letting the plain words of the passage speak for themselves. There is no compelling reason to suddenly change the application of 'believe' from that of 'salvation' in vs. 12 to that of 'not really saved' in vs. 13 except to serve a predetermined doctrine. You should be letting Luke 8:13 form your doctrine, not let your doctrine form the scriptures.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi Love,

Hope you are well.


Jesus teaches us the condition for a person to be saved.



Jesus said believe (the kind of believing He means) equals being saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Why in the next verse would Jesus be referring to some other kind of believing?

The answer is: He wouldn’t


In the next verse He describes a different set of circumstances which is persecution. Believers are being persecuted. The reason they are being persecuted is because they are indeed believers, Christians, followers of Christ.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

We don’t need to try and speculate about whether or not these folks who are being persecuted for being Christians, are believers or not, because they are in fact being persecuted for being believers.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

How can a person possibly fall away from Christ, that never believed in the first place?


When you understand that Jesus is talking about believers being persecuted and the temptation they succumb to is the temptation to stop the persecution by turning away from Christ, then you understand that these people that Jesus is describing are indeed believers.




JLB





.

Hi my brother. I'm doing very well. Thank you for your concern and congrats on the Admin responsibility!

For some reason we just aren't connecting on "believe". I think you and I can agree on "Jesus is the Word".
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

My point has always been that all soils except (good soil) have believed "part" of the Word, but not the saving part and that is why they fell away.

Some people believe God is love - - that is part of the Word (Jesus).......not saving though

Some people believe God is just - - that is part of the Word (Jesus) .......not saving though

Some people believe God is merciful - - that is part of the Word (Jesus) ..........not saving though

Rocks - - -Luke 8:13 Those on the rocks are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away.

You are hung up on "believe for awhile". They believe part of the Word, but they don't let it penetrate so that they receive ALL the word and hence be saved. Of course in a time of testing they fell away because they weren't given the Spirit of truth, so it didn't really matter to them cause they didn't really believe it entirely anyway.

Thorns - - Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

This doesn't even say they believed part of the Word, but they heard it and then carried on their merry way.

My wish for this exchange with you, is to focus on Jesus being the Word. People can "believe" part of the Word and not be saved. You are automatically jumping into ALL believers are the right kind of believing believers. No, they are on the path but unless a person really believes all the things I listed in my previous post......you are NOT born again.

 

[jerry63935]

The stakes are too high to be playing these games, Jerry.

If you refuse to understand what Jesus is teaching then stop derailing the discussion with you off topic comments.

FIRST off admin mod what ever i aint playing game 2nd i aint derailing nothing. every thing i posted is scripture . so i dont know where this theory comes in at games the post title is temporarily salvation there is nothing temporary about salvation be;ived for a while i know several like that

 

[jerry63935]

You are hung up on "believe for awhile". They believe part of the Word, but they don't let it penetrate so that they receive ALL the word and hence be saved. Of course in a time of testing they fell away because they weren't given the Spirit of truth, so it didn't really matter to them cause they didn't really believe it entirely anyway.

agreed this is why i tried to use other scriptures

 

[jerry63935]

You like so many others before you, when discussing these things have come to the place where you have no answers, because you refuse to actually address the discussion topic, so you try the blame game and you try to change the subject.

give me a break JLB i have not changed nothing i simply disagreed with you. i ask this one last time i would like to see scriptures with the words temporary salvation is that to much to ask ? better yet where have i played the blame game . am i upsetting you because i disagree with you ? i told you early on in the thread i disagreed and would not change . how ever i would be willing to change my position. if i can see scripture that uses temporary salvation

 

[Jethro Bodine]

how ever i would be willing to change my position. if i can see scripture that uses temporary salvation

Here is where the potential for your salvation to be temporary is found in scripture:

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:10,14,26-31


Also, in Mark Jesus talks about people who believe in him stumbling so as to go to hell.

42“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’ - Mark 9:42-48

 

[jerry63935]

or if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:10,14,26-31

hebrews 10 is widely discussed scripture

Here is where the potential for your salvation to be temporary is found in scripture:

i am looking for scripture with the words temporary salvation. all through the Bible he has promised us Eternal life The word eternal means "everlasting, having no beginning and no end.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

all through the Bible he has promised us Eternal life The word eternal means "everlasting, having no beginning and no end.

Even in your explanation you can see that it is God's life itself that is eternal.
Your continued possession of the life that has no beginning and no end is dependent upon whether or not you continue to believe in Christ. But the life that you either have or don't have remains eternal.

Hebrews explains how the effect of the ministry of Christ is what is eternal and makes it so his sacrifice does not have to re-performed like the ministry of the Levites had to be performed over and over again. Which the author says is why we should continue to believe in it and not cast it away in unbelief. Don't throw away your faith in a ministry that gives you the life that never ends.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

hebrews 10 is widely discussed scripture

You know why?
Because so many people want to make it not mean what it so plainly says.

 

[JLB]

My point has always been that all soils except (good soil) have believed "part" of the Word, but not the saving part and that is why they fell away.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


Nothing here about believing part of the word.


These “fell away“ or “stumbled“ in which they turned away from Christ because of persecution.


These “endured” or “believed” for a while then departed from Christ.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


Jesus said those who endure to the end are saved.

As you can see, these in the second group only endured or believed for a while.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
• this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

Temporary enduring = Temporary salvation
Temporary believing = Temporary salvation

This is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

• by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

If we do not continue to believe, but fall away in unbelief, our initial believing by which we were saved was done in vain.



JLB

 

[JLB]

give me a break JLB i have not changed nothing i simply disagreed with you. i ask this one last time i would like to see scriptures with the words temporary salvation is that to much to ask ? better yet where have i played the blame game . am i upsetting you because i disagree with you ? i told you early on in the thread i disagreed and would not change . how ever i would be willing to change my position. if i can see scripture that uses temporary salvation

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21



These “fell away“ or “stumbled“ in which they turned away from Christ because of persecution.


These “endured” or “believed” for a while then departed from Christ.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12


Jesus said those who endure to the end are saved.

As you can see, these in the second group only endured or believed for a while.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
• this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

Temporary enduring = Temporary salvation
Temporary believing = Temporary salvation

This is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

• by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

If we do not continue to believe, but fall away in unbelief, our initial believing by which we were saved was done in vain.



This principle is also taught in John 15.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

As everyone can see, these branches “in Christ” were removed from Him; no longer being “in Christ”.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12




JLB

 

[JLB]

You are hung up on "believe for awhile". They believe part of the Word, but they don't let it penetrate so that they receive ALL the word and hence be saved. Of course in a time of testing they fell away because they weren't given the Spirit of truth, so it didn't really matter to them cause they didn't really believe it entirely anyway.

Yes believe is the condition for being saved.

Jesus teaches us the condition for a person to be saved.



Jesus said believe (the kind of believing He means) equals being saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Why in the next verse would Jesus be referring to some other kind of believing?


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


This is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

• by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

If we do not continue to believe, but fall away in unbelief, our initial believing by which we were saved was done in vain.



This principle is also taught in John 15.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

As everyone can see, these branches “in Christ” were removed from Him; no longer being “in Christ”.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12





JLB