Temporal Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Some would disagree ...

This is not even in debate.
Unbelievers will NOT inherit the kingdom.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Utterly and completely false.


“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

The is no such thing as the age of Law.


Jesus Christ preached the Gospel, the same gospel that we are to preach in all the world, then the end will come.


And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:14




JLB

We disagree

This is not even in debate.
Unbelievers will NOT inherit the kingdom.

We’ll see, won’t we.....?
Have you ever spent 5 minutes investigating this? “ If We are Unfaithful, God remains Faithful, He can NOT deny Himself”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We disagree

There was a day, even in my short lifetime, when the suggestion that people who do not believe and trust in Christ will be allowed into the kingdom when Jesus returns did not even exist because of how absurd and anti-scriptural it is.

We’ll see, won’t we.....?
Have you ever spent 5 minutes investigating this? “ If We are Unfaithful, God remains Faithful, He can NOT deny Himself”

I showed you what the passage says and you have chosen to ignore it.
You either did not understand what I said or you chose not to rebut what I said.

Your interpretation of the passage makes it contradict itself. I showed you this.

 

[netchaplain]

This is so hard to read because all you're saying is these passages of scripture don't really mean what they say.

The NT is clearly plain concerning doctrines pertaining to receiving salvation, but it requires more than merely taking many words as they read to interpret the proper intention concerning the spiritual growth doctrines (mostly within the Epistles), in which many if not most believers lack interest. The need to study in a manner that uses comprehensive methods is desirable only to those who wish to understand Scripture (esp. in much of the Epistles) for the sake of spiritual growth within themselves and to aid others with the same desire (Bible commentators, Pastors, Teachers, etc.).

Here's one example of advanced Bible studies used by most theologians:

Necessary Inference: Scriptural Reasoning, Logical Conclusions

 

[JLB]

We disagree

Ok


Please show me from this scripture where you think Jesus preached in the “age of the law”, and that His Gospel is a different Gospel that we preach today.


“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

The is no such thing as the age of Law.


Jesus Christ preached the Gospel, the same gospel that we are to preach in all the world, then the end will come.


And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:14



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The NT is clearly plain concerning doctrines pertaining to receiving salvation, but it requires more than merely taking many words as they read to interpret the proper intention concerning the spiritual growth doctrines (mostly within the Epistles), in which many if not most believers lack interest. The need to study in a manner that uses comprehensive methods is desirable only to those who wish to understand Scripture (esp. in much of the Epistles) for the sake of spiritual growth within themselves and to aid others with the same desire (Bible commentators, Pastors, Teachers, etc.).

Here's one example of advanced Bible studies used by most theologians:

Necessary Inference: Scriptural Reasoning, Logical Conclusions

Calvinism, the root of all these OSAS doctrines in the church today in all their varied forms, is a complicated, over-thought system of theology that you have to indoctrinate yourself with to make the plain words of scripture not really mean what they say. And I mean 'indoctrinate' in every negative sense of the word.

You have to purposely learn and memorize a special, thought out system to make Calvinism fit the scriptures. And you have to be taught it and memorize it because it doesn't flow naturally from a simple read of the scriptures. That's one reason I finally got off the fence about this subject and now just take the scriptures for what they say and keep things in context and acknowledge the obvious use of literary devices where applicable.

Calvinism follows right in line with it's Gnostic underpinnings. Gnosticism revolved around secret, esoteric understandings that only the enlightened received. Calvin's distorted understanding of election establishes this special enlightened group. And now, with Calvinism's ugly step sister, Freegrace, and it's 'the flesh doesn't matter, only the spirit matters' aspects of OSAS, Gnostic beliefs are all the more working their way through the church. And I think this will continue right up to the return of Christ.

We are witnessing the end-times falling away of the church, IMO. I am shocked by the progress it has made in just the last twenty years. What we see happening in politics is also happening in the church. It seems a spirit got released to spread and expedite rebellion and misinformation and the suppression of truth in the world and the church somewhere around the late 80's early 90's.

 

[LovethroughDove]

But in the meantime, while we're waiting for God to do his thing, just go ahead and purposely keep viewing pornography, getting drunk, hating people, being jealous, and stealing?

You're saying the right things about 'letting God', but you're losing it big time when it comes to restraining the flesh. I expect BB to keep his eyeballs on his side of the fence while he's waiting for God to make him want to do that.

No, not waiting. This is where the disconnect in this conversation with everyone is happening. Either you are living by the Spirit and letting God guide you, or you are trying yourself to somehow become holy (not realizing you are doing this).
It can't be both ways. Paul knew that if he walked at all in his flesh, he could not do right.

Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

The point is..... you can't restrain the flesh, so that is why "you" need to have Christ's Spirit "in you" to do the holy works.
Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Do you really think "you" can do anything good? Why did you need Jesus if you feel you are okay most of the time? As a security blanket? It sounds like he is just on the side observing your holiness walk. lol. I can only speak this way because I seriously thought this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, not waiting. This is where the disconnect in this conversation with everyone is happening. Either you are living by the Spirit and letting God guide you, or you are trying yourself to somehow become holy (not realizing you are doing this).
It can't be both ways. Paul knew that if he walked at all in his flesh, he could not do right.

Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

The point is..... you can't restrain the flesh, so that is why "you" need to have Christ's Spirit "in you" to do the holy works.
Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Do you really think "you" can do anything good? Why did you need Jesus if you feel you are okay most of the time? As a security blanket? It sounds like he is just on the side observing your holiness walk. lol. I can only speak this way because I seriously thought this.

You mean until God teaches me to lay hold of and walk in the power of the Spirit I don't have to even try to stop myself from taking that $100.00 bill out of my employers cash register that I'm dying to have because I don't have the power to do that anyway? This is the point you are not addressing.

Don't tell me the answer is to walk in the Spirit and not do that. We all know that.
The question is, what do we do until that lesson is learned, purposely sin?

Do you have any experience with grappling with temptation before you learned to walk in God's power to overcome it? Or did you just start out not having any struggles with overcoming sin?

 

[LovethroughDove]

This is not even in debate.
Unbelievers will NOT inherit the kingdom.

We’ll see, won’t we.....?
Have you ever spent 5 minutes investigating this? “ If We are Unfaithful, God remains Faithful, He can NOT deny Himself”

I didn't know if I wanted to really get into this, cause it's been brought up 5 million times and nothing has come of it.

1) God does not give his Spirit to an unbeliever
2) A Spirit filled believer has been sanctified
1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Now, the 5 million times thing.... believe for awhile
Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Break it down Lord, so that people can see what you are saying.

Notice.......The root is what matters here. The root anchors the kind of faith God is looking for to believe the complete truth. They were believing something about Jesus, but it didn't sink in and take hold.

The devil was able to take that Word away from their hearts, so that it wouldn't anchor. Luke 8:12 then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so they may not believe and be saved. That word died in the no root people! How can something grow with no root? It can't.

 

[LovethroughDove]

You mean until God teaches me to lay hold of and walk in the power of the Spirit I don't have to even try to stop myself from taking that $100.00 bill out of my employers cash register that I'm dying to have because I don't have the power to do that anyway? This is the point you are not addressing.

I'm saying that we focus on the Spirit doing our holy walk, cause if it ain't the $100 bill that tempts you.......it'll be something else........So you need to have the Spirit walk going already.

Don't tell me the answer is to walk in the Spirit and not do that. We all know that.
The question is, what do we do until that lesson is learned, purposely sin?

Maybe you are right about this. Until that lesson is learned, maybe people can't see correctly?
This may be why Romans 15:1 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.

Those who are new to the Spirit maybe shouldn't dive into the deep end when the receive. I don't know? I know I'm swimming in the deep in now, but that is after practice and almost drowning and having that experience to know that you need a life jacket to even be in the pool!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can something grow with no root? It can't.

LTD, the word is planted and growing in soil #2.
It says the word 'sprang up'. That means it has a root (plants don't spring up without any root at all) and is growing.

So we know Jesus is using 'no root' in the way we often do.
When we see something is not rooted deeply we refer to it as having 'no root'.
It's an idiom that is explained right in the passage.
No special interpretation needed here to make the passage not really mean what it says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who are new to the Spirit maybe shouldn't dive into the deep end when the receive. I don't know? I know I'm swimming in the deep in now, but that is after practice and almost drowning and having that experience to know that you need a life jacket to even be in the pool!

And so you acknowledge that the believer untrained in the power of the Spirit should make every attempt to not sin no matter how fleshly the attempt is and disregard any teaching that tells him it's okay to purposely sin since any fleshly success at doing that means nothing and is actually a sin.

At the very least, that fleshly attempt will lead you to the power of the Spirit. That's what I hear you saying. BB needs to be taught this truth. Freegrace condones open, willful, purposeful sinning by saying that you trying to stop it in your own flesh is you sinning and trying to earn your own salvation and not resting in Christ. What a joke.

 

[LovethroughDove]

LTD, the word is planted and growing in soil #2.
It says the word 'sprang up'. That means it has a root (plants don't spring up without any root at all) and is growing.

So we know Jesus is using 'no root' in the way we often do.
When we see something is not rooted deeply we refer to it as having 'no root'.
It's an idiom that is explained right in the passage.
No special interpretation needed here to make the passage not really mean what it says.

Okay, for the sake of agreeing I'll go with you there. It obviously isn't the kind of growth God is looking for in order to plant himself permanently in someone.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now read just a few verses later what happens to us sanctified holy ones if we trample on the Son and purposely sin in willful disregard and contempt for the grace we have received:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” e 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:26-31

But you're probably thinking, "but verses 10 and 14 say we're made holy and perfect forever! So how can the author then say we can lose that salvation?" The answer is right there in chapter 10, too. But OSAS doctrine keeps people from seeing it sitting there right under their noses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, for the sake of agreeing I'll go with you there. It obviously isn't the kind of growth God is looking for in order to plant himself permanently in someone.

That's right.
He desires that we have the good and noble heart of soil #4 in the Parable.
That is soil in which the word can go down deep and persevere in that soil to the very end.
Unless, and until a believer has that type of soil they can't begin to make some kind of boast of never falling away.
That, IMO, rules out about 95% of the believing church.
I'm convinced most of the church spends the majority of it's time in the 3rd type of soil.

 

[JLB]

Now, the 5 million times thing.... believe for awhile
Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

No plant can spring up out of the ground without a root system. This is simple fact. Please look it up. When the seed breaks the first thing that emerges is the root system, by which the plant is able to stand up and grow upwards out of the ground.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6


What Jesus is saying is they have no depth of root because of the rocky ground.

Remember the most important fact of this verse.

These in this group were being persecuted because they were Christians.


Surely you understand this.


Fall Away is the phrase that seals the deal. It’s the nail in the coffin of OSAS. That’s why it is so vehemently resisted.


Fall away means desert. These Christians who were being persecuted because they were in fact followers of Christ, deserted Him, to save their lives; to live a little longer.


If a person in the army who deserts while under fire, to save his life, so he can live a little longer... does this mean he was never in the army?

Of course not, just the opposite.

How can a person desert the army he was never in?


This understanding only amplifies, when you know who the players are because of the historical context.


Would you like me to continue?



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

How can a person desert the army he was never in?

JLB

I actually don't want to compare it to the army, cause it is plants we are speaking of. The plant can't withstand the elements and probably fell off a cliff or something.

 

[netchaplain]

Calvinism, the root of all these OSAS doctrines in the church today in all their varied forms, is a complicated, over-thought system of theology that you have to indoctrinate yourself with to make the plain words of scripture not really mean what they say. And I mean 'indoctrinate' in every negative sense of the word.

My reason for posting isn't to convince but just share what I believe is truth. If our goal is to convince (instead of just share) others what we believe is truth, we may be just trying to justify ourselves, which we all need to guard against (not suspecting anyone, just making a general statement).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My reason for posting isn't to convince but just share what I believe is truth. If our goal is to convince (instead of just share) others what we believe is truth, we may be just trying to justify ourselves, which we all need to guard against (not suspecting anyone, just making a general statement).

I'm good with this.
Everyone has to make their own judgment about this.
I just want to provide additional information to help people do that.
It's my experience that most people only know the Reformed Movement's doctrine and don't know that legitimate, reasonable, competing knowledge is out there.

 

[netchaplain]

I'm good with this.
Everyone has to make their own judgment about this.
I just want to provide additional information to help people do that.
It's my experience that most people only know the Reformed Movement's doctrine and don't know that legitimate, reasonable, competing knowledge is out there.

Agree with you here! I believe most will never realize the importance of using those who spent more time and labor than most in the Word of God (Bible commentators); a quite significant disadvantage, which will not be realized until later.