Temporal Salvation?

[for_his_glory]

You pretty much got it!

WOW!!!

Where does it say in scripture we can just keep on sinning willy nilly after being Spiritually born again, washed clean by the blood of Christ, indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise who has sealed us unto the day of redemption as we are now made righteous again before God by that of His righteousness.

We have showed you the scriptures that refute your belief that you can keep on sinning. Who is teaching you these lies? What are the names of those who are teaching you as I would love to know.

 

[Link1983]

We are all born with a sin nature and all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptation to sin.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of them. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Completely agree!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Since there is such a thing as an apostate and falling, OSAS cannot be true, correct?

How about giving us a definition of apostate.
What this always comes down to is " an apostate actually ever saved?"
The debates go on forever.

Romans 14:4; Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

This verse has to be disturbing to a non-OSAS person.
And I have dozens of others.
As I said, the debate goes on forever, and no one wins.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

You have that backwards.

Jesus didn’t say to follow Paul.

Paul said to follow his example of following Christ.

Paul taught them to imitate him as he imitated or followed Christ.

Paul is saying that they should use his lifestyle as an example Of following Christ.


Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:1 NIV



JLB

We can only “ Follow Jesus” so far......perhaps to the Water’s Edge.....what do we do when He starts to Wall on the Water ......If we find ourselves in the middle of an angry Mob that is trying to throw us over a cliff, do we just kinda “vanish into thin air” like Jesus did?
If we concentrate on Loving Others like both Paul and Jesus did...I think that should suffice...

 

[JLB]

We can only “ Follow Jesus” so far......perhaps to the Water’s Edge.....what do we do when He starts to Wall on the Water ......If we find ourselves in the middle of an angry Mob that is trying to throw us over a cliff, do we just kinda “vanish into thin air” like Jesus did?
If we concentrate on Loving Others like both Paul and Jesus did...I think that should suffice...

Wouldn’t that be great?

Here is the consequences of not obeying His command to love.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

ou have that backwards.

Jesus didn’t say to follow Paul

Jesus did not HAVE to say it......if Paul wrote it, it was Holy Spirit Inspired and anything that Paul said, it may as well been Jesus saying it ( the one or two exceptions , when Paul was merely offering his personal opinion.....he alway made it clear he was speaking for himself.....
A good example of this would be when Jesus said, “ALL things are Lawful” and used Paul His Secretary to write it down.....
Paul never wrote any thing in his letters that Jesus did not TELL him to say.....if Paul said it— Jesus said it.....
When Paul said that the Law was “ weak and useless” and that trying to folllow it only “ caused Sin to INCREASE” , do you think that he came up with that on his OWN ? Nope....
Jesus revealed these Truths to Paul and Told him to write them down.....for our Benefit...

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Wouldn’t that be great?

Here is the consequences of not obeying His command to love.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

Moses was a murderer.....of course, we all know that David was also....how did “they” get Saved? Faith Plus Nothing
James was writing to Born-Again,Saved “ Brethern” when he told them ( paraphrasing ) “It’s considered shameful to be in jail—- but not if you are in jail for being a Believer. Just don’t let me hear that you are in jail for Murder and the Like!
James seemed to allow for the possibility that a “ Brother” Christian could indeed , be capable of committing Murder! So now, what do with “that?”...... beats me....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

as they do not line up with the word of God.

And I , just as Sincerely, do not believe that your “ take” on God’s Word is the correct one.So now what?
For me, if you Believe That Jesus Christ , having been Dead for three days and nights, walked out of that Tomb—- you are a Saved Person. Period. Romans ,chapter 10.....
Jesus said that if you would “acknowledge ME before men— I will Acknowledge YOU before My Father in Heaven”.....I Trust Jesus to carry out His Word.....that is what Faith is.....Newbies, alway Remember .....How does Jesus tell you to LIVE ? “ The Righteous ( Those made fit for Heaven) shall L I V E by Faith !! One finishes the Christian Walk the same way He Started it—— Faith in Jesus Plus Nothing to Save you....” Without ONE PLEA, except that His Blood was Shed for Me ! God bless....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

WOW!!!

Where does it say in scripture we can just keep on sinning willy nilly after being Spiritually born again, washed clean by the blood of Christ, indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise who has sealed us unto the day of redemption as we are now made righteous again before God by that of His righteousness.

We have showed you the scriptures that refute your belief that you can keep on sinning. Who is teaching you these lies? What are the names of those who are teaching you as I would love to know.

Any of the numerous times that Jesus spoke of the Chastisement of the Believer he is proving that Sin still exists in the Believer’s Life....Why does God say He Chastises His Children? Just for Kicks? Of course Not! He “chastises” His Children That listen to their “ Old Adamic Nature” and foolishly give in to a Temptation....
Why does the Disciple John implore Saved, Born Again Believers NOT to Sin, If Sin for the Believer has been Done Away with, as if the Christian was “above sin?” John even went so far as to inform us that Jesus was our “ Advocate” if we fell into sin ! It’s ALL self-explanatory .If sin has been “ conquered” in thexkives

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Any of the numerous times that Jesus spoke of the Chastisement of the Believer he is proving that Sin still exists in the Believer’s Life....Why does God say He Chastises His Children? Just for Kicks? Of course Not! He “chastises” His Children That listen to their “ Old Adamic Nature” and foolishly give in to a Temptation....Its His Way to get Foolish,Errant Believers back on track....
Why does the Disciple John implore Saved, Born Again Believers NOT to Sin, If Sin for the Believer has been Done Away with, as if the Christian was “above sin?” John even went so far as to inform us that Jesus was our “ Advocate” if we fell into sin ! It’s ALL self-explanatory .If sin has been “ conquered” in the Lives Of His Followers, Why does Jesus have to perform the role of “Defense Attorney” for us?
Believers are Free to Sin and boy ,do they! Sometimes I find myself having VERY Impure thoughts—- how about you? ....They are also free to use Grace as “ a License to Sin”.... they are free to commit “ Willful” Sins—-Hey! you KNEW it was Wrong to do 75mph in that 65 mph Zone, but you rationalized it, didn’t you?You were just wanting to “ make good time”,right? And THAT, my Saved But Sinful Friend, is a VERY tiny example of the way we know that something is wrong, but go ahead and do it anyway! We are NOT Sinners because we Sin! We SIN because we are SINNERS ! We’ll know Perfection on “ the other side”....
Until that Day arrives, let’s thank God for His Grace ......Christians SHOULD never Sin, but they do. We are covered by the Blood Of the Lamb as far as our Eternal Destination is concerned ( we must never forget that Salvation is GIFT from God, and “God’s Gifts are NEVER REVOKED ) Religionist are forever getting their panties in a knot.....Horrified that somebody might take advantage of the Wondrous Forgiveness and Grace available to ALL that will just merely “ come to Him” and somehow “ Get Away With It ! Rest assured, Oh Bitter One , God “ will NOT” be MOCKED! Rest easy tonight , because I can assure you that “There ain’t Nobody Gettin’ Away with Nothing in this lifetime ! You simply can NOT “ Do Wrong and Get By! One “ CAN “ Sin as a Believer , but if you have a New Heart , God has a way of Transforming the “ inside of the cup”,taking away the Pleasure you took in Sinning and you will “ find yourself” doing the things that please God... Disobedient , Foolish Children Of God are just like “ OUR” Children .....when they do Wrong, we discipline them for their own good .....we NEVER stop Loving them and we NEVER disown them...God is that way.

 

[JLB]

Jesus did not HAVE to say it.

Are you still promoting another Gospel, other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

What point are you trying to make?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Moses was a murderer.

Blaspheming Moses is not going to somehow help your case?

Here is the testimony of God concerning Moses.

• who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.

Jesus was as faithful as Moses.



Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:1-6

• whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

if we hold fast.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How about giving us a definition of apostate.
What this always comes down to is " an apostate actually ever saved?"
The debates go on forever.

Romans 14:4; Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

This verse has to be disturbing to a non-OSAS person.
And I have dozens of others.
As I said, the debate goes on forever, and no one wins.

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- Apostasy, rebellion, defection, falling away

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

"apo"meaning away from
"stasia" meaning place or standing

An apostate then is one who has moved/departed from a previous standing/position. An apostate is one who has moved/departed from a saved standing to a lost standing. One who has ' never actually saved' standing has not changed, they are in a lost standing and remain in that lost standing. Again, an apostate is one whose standing has changed.

Christians are warned about falling away. The word fall means one standing has changed. I can be in a tree and fall from that tree. My standing changed from being in the tree to now being on the ground. Those 'never actually saved" cannot fall for they are already fallen. One does not fall from a lost position to a lost position.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- Apostasy, rebellion, defection, falling away

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

"apo"meaning away from
"stasia" meaning place or standing

An apostate then is one who has moved/departed from a previous standing/position. An apostate is one who has moved/departed from a saved standing to a lost standing. One who has ' never actually saved' standing has not changed, they are in a lost standing and remain in that lost standing. Again, an apostate is one whose standing has changed.

Christians are warned about falling away. The word fall means one standing has changed. I can be in a tree and fall from that tree. My standing changed from being in the tree to now being on the ground. Those 'never actually saved" cannot fall for they are already fallen. One does not fall from a lost position to a lost position.

Now answer Romans 14:4 and show how it agrees with what you are saying about apostate.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Now answer Romans 14:4 and show how it agrees with what you are saying about apostate.

The fact the Christian can become an apostate, fall proves OSAS to be wrong.

The fact the Christian can become an apostate proves God will not prevent the Christian from apostatizing against the Christian's will.

The context of Rom 14 is about those weak in faith in eating meat. Those that do not eat meat should not judge those that do eat meat Rom 14:3 and vice versa. Paul is dealing with matters of opinion here. Paul is NOT dealing with a fallen Christian that God will save (cause to stand) on judgment day.

Rom 14:4 "Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand."

The meat eater will be made to stand in judgment for he has done nothing wrong in eating meat.
"The Lord has power" means no one can change the Lord's ability to save the meat eater.
"To make him stand" the meat eater is a Christian already in a saved state, he is not fallen. Paul here is not dealing with the lost. This Christian that eats meat will be made to stand in judgement means he is standing now in this life while eating meat. Again, nothing wrong with eating meat. The context is NOT talking about a fallen Christian (meat eater) being saved anyway at judgment. But about a saved person now who is eating meat will still be saved in judgement for there is nothing wrong with eating meat. No OSAS here at all.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The fact the Christian can become an apostate, fall proves OSAS to be wrong.

The fact the Christian can become an apostate proves God will not prevent the Christian from apostatizing against the Christian's will.

The context of Rom 14 is about those weak in faith in eating meat. Those that do not eat meat should not judge those that do eat meat Rom 14:3 and vice versa. Paul is dealing with matters of opinion here. Paul is NOT dealing with a fallen Christian that God will save (cause to stand) on judgment day.

Rom 14:4 "Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand."

The meat eater will be made to stand in judgment for he has done nothing wrong in eating meat.
"The Lord has power" means no one can change the Lord's ability to save the meat eater.
"To make him stand" the meat eater is a Christian already in a saved state, he is not fallen. Paul here is not dealing with the lost. This Christian that eats meat will be made to stand in judgement means he is standing now in this life while eating meat. Again, nothing wrong with eating meat. The context is NOT talking about a fallen Christian (meat eater) being saved anyway at judgment. But about a saved person now who is eating meat will still be saved in judgement for there is nothing wrong with eating meat. No OSAS here at all.

No, there are no opinions here, this is God's word.
Roman's 14, the entire chapter is about the weak and the strong in Christ, our obligations to each other, how we are not to judge one another, but to show support to those who are weak in their faith.
He goes on to say don't judge your brother in verse 10, and stop passing judgment in verse 13.
Verse 13 also says don't be a stumbling block to your brother.
Read the whole chapter.
If food is on your mind and nothing else, then you miss the entire message that Paul is giving.
Paul uses food as an example.
He also uses what day of week we worship as an example.

In verse 19 he says make every effort for mutual edification.
Where is the edification telling everyone on this forum that they are going to hell unless they believe as you do?
The whole chapter is to help the weak, not condemn them as you and others here are doing.
You judge judge and judge God's people.
When do you ever edify them?

 

[netchaplain]

I often agree with much of what everyone is sharing, but I want it be known that my intention for sharing my beliefs are never an attempt to convince others to accept what I believe, but an attempt to give the reason why I believe it. It's the Spirit that convinces (teaches -1Co 2:13), and that, in two ways: directly from Himself and indirectly through one another.

If a person has convinced you into believing something, even if it's true, then a person can talk you out of believing it. What we learn from the Spirit is by Him contrasting truth and error, so when we are sincere about understanding Scripture, it will only show through the attribute of kindness in communicating with one another; because kindness is not only the most efficient way He teaches, but is the most important attribute we have of Him after His love (2Pe 1:7).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, there are no opinions here, this is God's word.
Roman's 14, the entire chapter is about the weak and the strong in Christ, our obligations to each other, how we are not to judge one another, but to show support to those who are weak in their faith.
He goes on to say don't judge your brother in verse 10, and stop passing judgment in verse 13.
Verse 13 also says don't be a stumbling block to your brother.
Read the whole chapter.
If food is on your mind and nothing else, then you miss the entire message that Paul is giving.
Paul uses food as an example.
He also uses what day of week we worship as an example.

In verse 19 he says make every effort for mutual edification.
Where is the edification telling everyone on this forum that they are going to hell unless they believe as you do?
The whole chapter is to help the weak, not condemn them as you and others here are doing.
You judge judge and judge God's people.
When do you ever edify them?

I pointed out in Rom 14 Paul was dealing with a matter of opinion and not doctrine. Whether to eat meat or not is a matter of opinion..it is not wrong to eat meat nor wrong to not eat meat. Therefore those that do not eat meant cannot despise those who do eat meat nor can those who eat meat despise those who abstain from eating meat.

Therefore in the context Paul is talking about Christians who are already in a saved state (whether they eat meant or not), He is NOT talking about fallen Christians. So there is no OSAS in the passage.

==============

God's word is truth, Jn 17:17 and truth by its very nature is narrow and NEVER contradicts itself. Meaning people cannot all contradict each other and yet all be right. Though things of opinion do not matter things pertaining to doctrine do matter, 2 Jn 1:9-10

There is no edification for anyone in going along with doctrinal contradiction/error.

(Note my new signature line below.)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I pointed out in Rom 14 Paul was dealing with a matter of opinion and not doctrine. Whether to eat meat or not is a matter of opinion..it is not wrong to eat meat nor wrong to not eat meat. Therefore those that do not eat meant cannot despise those who do eat meat nor can those who eat meat despise those who abstain from eating meat.

Therefore in the context Paul is talking about Christians who are already in a saved state (whether they eat meant or not), He is NOT talking about fallen Christians. So there is no OSAS in the passage.

==============

God's word is truth, Jn 17:17 and truth by its very nature is narrow and NEVER contradicts itself. Meaning people cannot all contradict each other and yet all be right. Though things of opinion do not matter things pertaining to doctrine do matter, 2 Jn 1:9-10

There is no edification for anyone in going along with doctrinal contradiction/error.

(Note my new signature line below.)

Like I said, if all you can think about is food, then you miss the whole message.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Like I said, if all you can think about is food, then you miss the whole message.

You seem to not understand that in the context (Rom 14:4) Paul is dealing with matters of opinions among Christians.

--so there is no OSAS found in the context since the text is dealing with Christians and not apostates.

--Christians cannot disagree over matters of doctrinal truth. Christians could disagree over what to eat or over days but they cannot disagree over matters of doctrine as salvation, worship, marriage divorce and remarriage, etc, etc. (2 John 1:9-10)