the 2 thieves on the cross

[ezra]

in a previous post i had 2 different posters try to say the 2 thieves on the cross was not nailed to the cross only Christ * i ask for scripture if any body has it . i will remind that what the cross was made for. in the crucifixion back in the Bible days.Crucified between Two Criminals
32 Two others—criminals r—were also led away to be executed with Him. 33 When s they arrived at the place called The Skull, they crucified Him there, along with the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. [34 Then Jesus said, “Father, t forgive u them, because they do not know what they are doing.†v] w And they divided His clothes and cast lots. x
35 The y people stood watching, and even the leaders kept scoffing: z “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One!†a 36 The soldiers also mocked Him. They came offering Him sour wine b 37 and said, “If You are the King of the Jews, c save Yourself!â€
38 An inscription was above Him: d
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 Then e one of the criminals hanging there began to yell insults at f Him: “Aren’t You the Messiah? Save Yourself and us!â€
40 But the other answered, rebuking him: “Don’t you even fear God, g since you are undergoing the same punishment? 41 We are punished justly, because we’re getting back what we deserve for the things we did, but this man has done nothing wrong.†h 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me i j when You come into Your kingdom!†k
43 And He said to him, “* I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.†lso if you can prove by scripture they was not nailed i want to see scripture:yes

 

[Knotical]

in a previous post i had 2 different posters try to say the 2 thieves on the cross was not nailed to the cross only Christ * i ask for scripture if any body has it . i will remind that what the cross was made for. in the crucifixion back in the Bible days.Crucified between Two Criminals
32 Two others—criminals r—were also led away to be executed with Him. 33 When s they arrived at the place called The Skull, they crucified Him there, along with the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. [34 Then Jesus said, “Father, t forgive u them, because they do not know what they are doing.†v] w And they divided His clothes and cast lots. x
35 The y people stood watching, and even the leaders kept scoffing: z “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One!†a 36 The soldiers also mocked Him. They came offering Him sour wine b 37 and said, “If You are the King of the Jews, c save Yourself!â€
38 An inscription was above Him: d
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 Then e one of the criminals hanging there began to yell insults at f Him: “Aren’t You the Messiah? Save Yourself and us!â€
40 But the other answered, rebuking him: “Don’t you even fear God, g since you are undergoing the same punishment? 41 We are punished justly, because we’re getting back what we deserve for the things we did, but this man has done nothing wrong.†h 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me i j when You come into Your kingdom!†k
43 And He said to him, “* I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.†lso if you can prove by scripture they was not nailed i want to see scripture:yes

I have heard this while growing up, but recently when this came to mind I looked through all four gospel accounts of the crucifixion and could not find anything that specified how they were done. I guess this can only be found by looking through historical records.

 

[ezra]

would it be possible they was just tied ? possible yes probable i have my doubts. the Romans was very cruel in the crucifixion . the death on the cross was by asphyxiation. that is the reason of braking of the LEGS . for one to proclaim they was not is very profound .

 

[Sinthesis]

would it be possible they was just tied ? possible yes probable i have my doubts. the Romans was very cruel in the crucifixion . the death on the cross was by asphyxiation. that is the reason of braking of the LEGS . for one to proclaim they was not is very profound .

What point are they trying to make by claiming the thieves weren't nailed to their crosses?

 

[ezra]

i have no idea

 

[Knotical]

What point are they trying to make by claiming the thieves weren't nailed to their crosses?

The point, if I remember correctly, is that Jesus suffered a worse crucifixion than the two thieves. Imagine the difference between simply being tied to the cross rather than having nails driven through your wrists and feet. The latter is exceedingly more painful.

 

[ezra]

The point, if I remember correctly, is that Jesus suffered a worse crucifixion than the two thieves. Imagine the difference between simply being tied to the cross rather than having nails driven through your wrists and feet. The latter is exceedingly more painful.

yes i agree no doubt it was worse on Christ than the other 2

 

[Knotical]

yes i agree no doubt it was worse on Christ than the other 2

But where is the proof of this? It isn't anywhere in the bible, that I know of, and yet I have heard here and there while growing up.

 

[Mitspa]

What point are they trying to make by claiming the thieves weren't nailed to their crosses?

Somebody on this forum was trying to make the claim that one of them was baptised, and that was why Jesus could save them? Of course they was trying to take away from the Great Picture of simple salvation in Christ. I not sure of any point? It seems it is just away of adding doubts and questions to a very simple and beautiful picture of His Great mercy, even as He suffered. Bless His Name forever!- Mitspa

 

[smaller]

In some ways the two thieves are a picture of each of us in our pre repentant state and our post repentant state.

A matter that touched my own heart when first reading the Gospels was the undeserving death of Christ. My heart string was being pulled into repentance by His Actions.

The thief exhibited a similar internal moving and expressed this heart matter by his words:

Both THIEVES actually requested SALVATION. From Luke 23:

"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."

the other:

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The right speaking thief knew they were both rightfully dying for their SIN DEEDS and made a very simple request to the Lord, as Lord, not an IF Lord as the first thief saw and spoke.

One thief knew He was Lord and that he himself was a thief on his way to just death for those sins.

s

 

[BornAgain]

In some ways the two thieves are a picture of each of us in our pre repentant state and our post repentant state.

A matter that touched my own heart when first reading the Gospels was the undeserving death of Christ. My heart string was being pulled into repentance by His Actions.

The thief exhibited a similar internal moving and expressed this heart matter by his words:

Both THIEVES actually requested SALVATION. From Luke 23:

"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."

the other:

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The right speaking thief knew they were both rightfully dying for their SIN DEEDS and made a very simple request to the Lord, as Lord, not an IF Lord as the first thief saw and spoke.

One thief knew He was Lord and that he himself was a thief on his way to just death for those sins.

s

This has always been meaningful to me...you can either deny or accept Jesus....

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Jesus had seen the most profound silence amidst the jeers of the rulers and multitude, but now he is ready to make reply to this penitent, dying man. The statement that Jesus gave him can be understood when we know the general teachings of the Christ. "Today," not at some time in the distant future, but this very day, you are to be associated with me in the pains and death of the cross and are to be associated with me in "Paradise." "Paradise" originally meant "an enclosed park or pleasure-ground." In the Septuagint Version Gen 2:8 it means the Garden of Eden. We are told that in Jewish theology the department of Hades where the blessed souls await the resurrection is called "Paradise"; it is equivalent to "Abraham's bosom." Luke 16:22,23 It occurs three times in the New Testament—in this passage, 2 Cor 12:4 Rev 2:7. It always seems to mean the abode of the blessed. Some doubt that the evidence in the scripture is strong enough to warrant a belief in the intermediate state of the dead. Whatever may have been the conception of the early Hebrews with regard to the separation between the righteous and the wicked in Sheol, those of a later period did conceive a separation; to them Hades and Sheol designated the place of the righteous and the wicked dead; Hades was the place for the blessed and called Paradise, while the wicked dwelt in the abyss called Tartarus. Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." John 20:17

 

[smaller]

This has always been meaningful to me...you can either deny or accept Jesus....

Spiritual matters are not generated by men, but given to them within by His Spirit. It is not a matter of man's choice.

It is much more interesting than that.

The other thief actual spoke as a slave of the god of this world and this fact is reflected in his speaking, his mind blinded by the god of this world, no different than any other unbeliever.

Jesus does not honor that speaking as it was the speech of the deceiver within his heart.

He honors the Spirit speaking from the mans heart which HE gives to speak truthfully. Men do not conjure up their own heavenly truth. God reveals it to them within. I may also have read or heard the thieves account many times, but on the day that God elected me to be moved, I was moved with compassion and sympathy. That was in internal matter that I did not generate prior nor did I suddenly 'decide' to be compassionate or sympathetic on that day. I just felt it, on the spot, and so did that thief who spoke rightfully, even though that same 'saved' thief was just shortly before also RILING on Jesus.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Blaming a man's choice who is in fact a slave of the devil, their minds being blinded is the last conclusion I would look to.

There is another player in the MIND of any blinded unbeliever to observe and to engage in resistance. Blaming the mans choice is quite futile.

If God elected any of us to see, we WILL see, and not of our wills, but of His.

1 John
"-them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Even in the speaking it was the 'second' speaking thief that was blessed. And this too contains significance, as from the old man to the new. The new being a second or NEW man.

There are many such 1st and 2nd showings from cover to cover. The 2 thieves are in fact part of an array of such showings.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Spiritual matters are not generated by men, but given to them within by His Spirit. It is not a matter of man's choice.

It is much more interesting than that.

The other thief actual spoke as a slave of the god of this world and this fact is reflected in his speaking, his mind blinded by the god of this world, no different than any other unbeliever.

Jesus does not honor that speaking as it was the speech of the deceiver within his heart.

He honors the Spirit speaking from the mans heart which HE gives to speak truthfully. Men do not conjure up their own heavenly truth. God reveals it to them within. I may also have read or heard the thieves account many times, but on the day that God elected me to be moved, I was moved with compassion and sympathy. That was in internal matter that I did not generate prior nor did I suddenly 'decide' to be compassionate or sympathetic on that day. I just felt it, on the spot, and so did that thief who spoke rightfully, even though that same 'saved' thief was just shortly before also RILING on Jesus.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Blaming a man's choice who is in fact a slave of the devil, their minds being blinded is the last conclusion I would look to.

There is another player in the MIND of any blinded unbeliever to observe and to engage in resistance. Blaming the mans choice is quite futile.

If God elected any of us to see, we WILL see, and not of our wills, but of His.

1 John
"-them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Even in the speaking it was the 'second' speaking thief that was blessed. And this too contains significance, as from the old man to the new. The new being a second or NEW man.

There are many such 1st and 2nd showings from cover to cover. The 2 thieves are in fact part of an array of such showings.

s

Right..not in agreement.

 

[WIP]

I don't know where it is stated that the thieves were only tied and not nailed to the their crosses but I figure the reason Jesus' crucifixion was so much more was because, as opposed to the other two or any other victim of crucifixion, he also edured the burden of all our sins. We may think that is much but for him it goes beyond explanation.

 

[John 8:32]

This has always been meaningful to me...you can either deny or accept Jesus....

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Jesus had seen the most profound silence amidst the jeers of the rulers and multitude, but now he is ready to make reply to this penitent, dying man. The statement that Jesus gave him can be understood when we know the general teachings of the Christ. "Today," not at some time in the distant future, but this very day, you are to be associated with me in the pains and death of the cross and are to be associated with me in "Paradise." "Paradise" originally meant "an enclosed park or pleasure-ground." In the Septuagint Version Gen 2:8 it means the Garden of Eden. We are told that in Jewish theology the department of Hades where the blessed souls await the resurrection is called "Paradise"; it is equivalent to "Abraham's bosom." Luke 16:22,23 It occurs three times in the New Testament—in this passage, 2 Cor 12:4 Rev 2:7. It always seems to mean the abode of the blessed. Some doubt that the evidence in the scripture is strong enough to warrant a belief in the intermediate state of the dead. Whatever may have been the conception of the early Hebrews with regard to the separation between the righteous and the wicked in Sheol, those of a later period did conceive a separation; to them Hades and Sheol designated the place of the righteous and the wicked dead; Hades was the place for the blessed and called Paradise, while the wicked dwelt in the abyss called Tartarus. Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." John 20:17

If the resurrection occured just then, and the thief went where-ever on that very day, that seems to be a very cruel trick to play on him.

I have seen this quoted before to prove that we go immediately to our reward...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now where did Christ go? This is what I've been told...

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Christ went to preach to spirits in hell during the three days and nights. If that really is the correct understanding of these verses, the thief thought he was going to paradise but ended up in hell.

 

[Webers_Home]

********

 

[Webers_Home]

.

yes i agree no doubt it was worse on Christ than the other 2

But where is the proof of this? It isn't anywhere in the bible, that I know of, and yet I have heard here and there while growing up.

The Romans flogged Jesus, slapped him around, crowned him with thorns, and nailed him to a cross. But as severe as that treatment was, I seriously doubt it was enough to cause the extensive trauma depicted below:

†. Isa 52:14-15 . . there were many who were appalled at him-- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness

In other words; when it was all over and done with, even the Lord's own mother couldn't recognize him. When did that happen? Well; wasn't there three hours of inky darkness during the Lord's crucifixion. What do you suppose went on in there? Well; I'll tell you what went on. God brutally thrashed the stuffings out of His own son.

†. Isa 53:10 . . It was Yhvh's will to crush him and cause him to suffer

During the event; Jesus was heard to call out:

†. Mtt 27:46 . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

That was only a portion of his plea. Here it is again along with the parts that were missing.

†. Ps 22:1 . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

The Hebrew word for "roaring" is sheagah (sheh-aw-gaw') which means: a rumbling or moan. In other words: people standing around the cross that day during those three hours of inky dark couldn't see anything, but they could sure hear: and what they heard were the dreadful cries of a man in extreme discomfort.

†. Luke 23:48 . .When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.

Yes, of course they beat their breasts; you know why? Because they were having trouble catching their breath. The extent of that man's injuries were so horrific that they could scarcely tell he was the same man. Nobody had ever seen anything like it before.

But if God would do that to His own son; just think what He has in store for mockers and scoffers who poo-poo the importance of what took place there that day. I suspect that by the time some people's day in court is completed at the Great White Throne depicted at Rev 20:11-15; they will look as though they were dragged through a field of concertina wire and dropped into a cotton gin.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Knotical]

.


The Romans flogged Jesus, slapped him around, crowned him with thorns, and nailed him to a cross. But as severe as that treatment was, I seriously doubt it was enough to cause the extensive trauma depicted below:

†. Isa 52:14-15 . . there were many who were appalled at him-- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness

In other words; when it was all over and done with, even the Lord's own mother wouldn't recognize him. When did that happen? Well; wasn't there three hours of inky darkness during the Lord's crucifixion. What do you suppose went on in there? Well; I'll tell you what went on. God brutally thrashed the stuffings out of His own son.

†. Isa 53:10 . . It was Yhvh's will to crush him and cause him to suffer

During the event; Jesus was heard to call out:

†. Mtt 27:46 . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

That was only a portion of his plea. Here it is again along with the parts that were missing.

†. Ps 22:1 . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

The Hebrew word for "roaring" is sheagah (sheh-aw-gaw') which means: a rumbling or moan.
In other words: people standing around the cross that day during those three hours of inky dark couldn't see anything, but they could sure hear: and what they heard were the dreadful cries of a man in extreme discomfort.

†. Luke 23:48 . .When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.

Yes, of course they beat their breasts; you know why? Because they were having trouble catching their breath. The extent of that man's injuries were so horrific that they could scarcely tell he was the same man. Nobody had ever seen anything like it before.

But if God would do that to His own son; just think what He has in store for mockers and scoffers who poo-poo the importance of what took place there that day. I suspect that by the time some people's day in court is completed at the Great White Throne depicted at Rev 20:11-15; they will look as though they were dragged through a field of concertina wire and dropped into a cotton gin.

Buen Camino
/

My question was pointed at where the proof of whether or not the thieves were only tied to their crosses in contrast to Jesus being nailed to His. Do you know where this idea could have come from?