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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The 613 something or another
- Thread starter Ryan
- Start date
TOG
Member
I did not do what you accuse me of. Just because I quote the verse that says not to eat pork doesn't mean I condone adultery or murder. Of course I believe we should keep those also. I listed the ones that people debate. That doesn't mean I'm taking the others away.
The TOG
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Ryan
Member
Thank you for this one. Did not know that. I am known as the fat garburator as everyone in my family cuts off the fat from their steaks and gives it to me. I take this as that big hunk of fat from say like a brisket, as opposed to just the natural marbling found in beef and lamb as it is unavoidable to eat of some fat. Is that what you think as well?
TOG
Member
I was wondering about that myself when I first read it, and posted a question about it to a Messianic Jewish site. They said that the Hebrew word for fat used in this verse is different from the one used for ordinary fat. Suet is the fat found on internal organs. The fat you find on regular meat is fine. It's only the suet that's forbidden.
The TOG
But you intentionally left some off the list that you said, "are impossible."
But you intentionally left some off the list that you said, "are possible but...require you to actually live in Israel."
But you intentionally left some off the list that you said, "only apply to groups to which I don't belong."
Does God say some laws are not applicable when choose a lifestyle or living location that make it difficult or in our view impossible to follow?
The truth is, ALL of God's laws are impossible for us to follow.
Romans 3
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Mark 10
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
TOG
Member
Ah... The eyes... I can relate to that. (The TOG adjusts his glasses, leans a bit farther back from the monitor and continues reading)
It's interesting how people can read the very same words and see totally different things. (Note that this is not directed at you or anyone else here. This is about my experience in real life). Most people only see "the law is not made for a righteous man" and seem to totally miss the fact that Paul says that "the law is good". He says the same thing twice in Romans 7, but people totally miss it there too. The way I understand verse 9 is similar to saying "the healthy don't need a doctor". That doesn't mean that doctors have been done away with. Take me for example. If we ignore the epilepsy, gout, bad back, bad knees, arthritis, and high blood pressure, I'm in pretty good health. But I still have a doctors appointment next Monday. We all need doctors now and then. It's the same with the law. If we're obeying it, then we don't need it. But when when we disobey it, that's when we need the law to steer us in the right direction.
The TOG
TOG
Member
So, "Thou shallt not kill" and "Thou shallt not steal" are impossible? I'm glad I don't live close to you.
For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you...But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.(Deut. 30:11,14 ESV)
You say God's commandments are too hard. God says they're not too hard. Which of you should I believe?
The TOG
TOG
Member
I posted a list of 20 commandments that most Christians believe we needn't bother with. Since then, nobody has said anything about those commandments. They have only criticized me for not posting the list they wanted. I said it wasn't a complete list. I've explained why many times. Now I have a challenge for any of you who are against keeping the commandments on the list. Instead of just pointing your finger at me (remember, there are 3 others pointing back), pick a single commandment from the list and tell me why you feel it shouldn't be kept. And don't just say a general "the law has been abolished". Show from Scripture why the particular commandment you choose shouldn't be kept. If you choose the Sabbath commandment, then show from Scripture why we shouldn't keep the Sabbath. If you choose the dietary laws, then show from Scripture where the dietary laws were abolished. If you choose one of the others, then show from Scripture why that particular commandment no longer applies. I will re-post the list for your convenience.
The TOG
In my 66 years i have learned to be a little of the road , with in the lines of Christianity, then in my youth... My salvation is by Grace His Blood i could never keep the LAWS... do i think those OT laws are important yes i do
Some are the best ways to live every day life. Thing just now of the 10... knowing them and then adding what Jesus had to say about how love covers them makes great sense...When He spoke those words it was to folks who Knew the law like we know the channels on the TV.
The ceremonial laws speak volumes to the cycle of the life of Christ.
Although we are a royal priesthood we have but one High Priest ..... that is Jesus the Christ.
I believe lots of things would be better if the laws about restitution were followed.
Also the SPIRIT of the laws of the jubily .
Generations tried obeying the laws it didn't work... Knowing my personality i will stay away from what some folks would call 'observance of the law' i know that would be of me and not Him...
Seeing not enough OT teaching in the churches today is sad... The watering down of the OT stories to make them palatable is disgusting. To the other extreme of worshiping the law is just as bad....
Some are the best ways to live every day life. Thing just now of the 10... knowing them and then adding what Jesus had to say about how love covers them makes great sense...When He spoke those words it was to folks who Knew the law like we know the channels on the TV.
The ceremonial laws speak volumes to the cycle of the life of Christ.
Although we are a royal priesthood we have but one High Priest ..... that is Jesus the Christ.
I believe lots of things would be better if the laws about restitution were followed.
Also the SPIRIT of the laws of the jubily .
Generations tried obeying the laws it didn't work... Knowing my personality i will stay away from what some folks would call 'observance of the law' i know that would be of me and not Him...
Seeing not enough OT teaching in the churches today is sad... The watering down of the OT stories to make them palatable is disgusting. To the other extreme of worshiping the law is just as bad....
TOG
Member
Ryan
Member
Worshiping the law in what respect? Or more the reverence of the Law as it truly is God's revelation to all mankind about his character, love, mercy, compassion and forgiveness. I revere the Law because it is God's desire for a believer to follow on instructions on how to love God and love each other. I submit we have no reverence for it because we don't understand it IMHO. Take a look at the Jews and how they treat their Torah scrolls. It was a tradition that when a Torah scroll was beyond repair, they would have a funeral for it as they saw it as a literal person. They would all say praise the Lord to John 1:1-4; but would then say blasphemy to John 1:14. I know, go figure.
If you look at videos of people oversees who have just received their first bible, they treat it with the utmost of care and protect, and truly revere it. I find we have lost that here in this society, myself included. It is literally God talking to us. Worshipping the bible as an object no, but revering it as it is instructions to us from the Creator of the Universe, yes.
TOG
Member
I think you're right. We don't understand it. I have found that the better I understand the law, the better I understand the New Testament. A lot of the things Jesus said and a lot of what Paul and others wrote later was about the law. But most don't realize that because they don't understand the law. That's why I believe that, regardless of whether someone believes we should keep the Sabbath or avoid eating pork, all Christians should study the law to help them understand the New Testament better.
The TOG
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Any time we do something that takes something from another we are guilty of stealing. When we lie or deceive someone even in the slightest we steal their trust. When we make false statements about someone no matter how slight we are guilty of stealing their dignity.
If it was possible to follow God's commandments to the fullest we would not need our savior, Jesus. As it is, it is impossible for us and so we do need a savior.
I did not say God's commandments were too hard. I said it is impossible for us. Please do not misrepresent my words as this is a violation of our ToS.
TOG
Member
Ah... Good old semantics. Deut. 30:14 clearly says that we can do God's commandments. They are not impossible. What is impossible is man's interpretation of them.
Take a closer look at the verse you quoted
It doesn't say that being angry in and of itself is wrong. It says "without cause". Is that impossible?
If it was impossible to follow God's commandments, then Jesus couldn't have done it. The fact that Jesus did obey every commandment shows that it can be done. If we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us to the same extent Jesus allowed the Spirit to lead him, then we, too, can follow the commandments.
The TOG
I guess i wasn't clear enough in using the word extreme ........I was not implying i think you worship the law. And i agree with the reverence.
TOG
Member
Jesus wasn't able to fulfill the commandments because he was the lamb of God. He was able to fulfill them because he was lead by the Spirit. The idea that Jesus was "fully man and fully God" isn't Biblical (Philippians 2:5-7), and neither is the idea that he lived a perfect life because he was God. You can't be tempted to do the impossible. You can only be tempted to do that which you can do. Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are (Heb. 4:15). That means that he could have sinned. But he didn't. Instead, he chose to be lead by the Spirit. He is our example (I Pet. 2:21). That means we're supposed to do the things he did. If that's impossible, then God gave us an impossible example to follow. That doesn't sound like something a good father would do.
The TOG
Explain to me how quoting a scripture from the Law that forbids that you take away from the Law, [which is what you are doing by "shortening" the list to those that you can keep], is "criticizing" you.
This is the very Law that you say we should keep, but you yourself purposely break so you can find the ones that you think you can keep.
JLB