The 613 something or another

[Deborah13]

Being WOF, on such that I hear is Billy Brim. About everything she teaches has to have some Rabbi or Jewish slant to it.

It's interesting that you should mention Billy Brim. She is a very frequent guest teacher with Gloria Copeland on the Believer's Voice of Victory. She and Gloria are on the same page. I've been meaning to buy Billy's book on end times, as I have a dear friend that believes very word she teaches. Just to compare to what I believe about end times.
I think we are going to keep seeing the coming together of the knowledge of the Jewish faith and of the Christian faith. One is not complete without the other. Seeing things in part without full understanding. The consummation will be One understanding, One knowledge, One faith. One in Messiah, Jesus the Christ.
Just my opinion though.

 

[reba]

Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.

totopic

 

[JLB]

I think we are going to keep seeing the coming together of the knowledge of the Jewish faith and of the Christian faith.

The faith of Abraham.

The faith of Paul.

The faith of Smith Wigglesworth.

Are all the same faith, and are rooted in obeying what God led them to do.

I do agree we need to turn away from sin.

I do agree that sin is defined in the Law.

I also know that we can not fully know what idolatry is apart from the Holy Spirit showing us it is more that just setting up wooden images and bowing down to them.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Primarily the Shema was written on a little scroll and placed inside the mezuzah

Shema prayer.... http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/706162/jewish/Translation.htm quotes this scripture in Deut.
Deuteronomy 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God withall your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Matthew 22 NASB
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?†37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment.

So was/is the mezuzah a type/shadow of the cross?
Was there a change in the way/how we obey? might v mind? right hand doings v renewing the mind (putting on the mind of Christ)?

The same yet different?

 

[TOG]

Shema prayer.... http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...ranslation.htm quotes this scripture in Deut. Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God withall your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

(snip)

Was there a change in the way/how we obey? might v mind?

I don't think there was any change. This event is recorded in three places in the Gospels, in Matthew, Mark. and Luke.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (Matt. 22:37 ESV)

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. (Mark 12:30 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind (Luke 10:27 ESV)
​

Jesus didn't have a secretary writing down everything he said. The apostles were writing this from memory many years later, and they just didn't remember it exactly the same way. What they're saying is the same, though. This commandment contained in the Sh'ma is the greatest commandment of all.

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

Shema prayer.... http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...ranslation.htm quotes this scripture in Deut. Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God withall your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

(snip)

Was there a change in the way/how we obey? might v mind?

I don't think there was any change. This event is recorded in three places in the Gospels, in Matthew, Mark. and Luke.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (Matt. 22:37 ESV)

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. (Mark 12:30 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind (Luke 10:27 ESV)
​

Jesus didn't have a secretary writing down everything he said. The apostles were writing this from memory many years later, and they just didn't remember it exactly the same way. What they're saying is the same, though. This commandment contained in the Sh'ma is the greatest commandment of all.

The TOG
​

The way to fulfill that scripture, and show your love for God today is to obey Him when He leads you to do something.

Like tell someone about His Son.

Or pay for someones groceries that needs help.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Shema prayer.... http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...ranslation.htm quotes this scripture in Deut. Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God withall your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

(snip)

Was there a change in the way/how we obey? might v mind?

I don't think there was any change. This event is recorded in three places in the Gospels, in Matthew, Mark. and Luke.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (Matt. 22:37 ESV)

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. (Mark 12:30 ESV)

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind (Luke 10:27 ESV)
​

Jesus didn't have a secretary writing down everything he said. The apostles were writing this from memory many years later, and they just didn't remember it exactly the same way. What they're saying is the same, though. This commandment contained in the Sh'ma is the greatest commandment of all.

The TOG
​

I agree.

It was always by faith and grace. How else would one be able to obey?

 

[Deborah13]

The way to fulfill that scripture, and show your love for God today is to obey Him when He leads you to do something.

Like tell someone about His Son.

Or pay for someones groceries that needs help.

I agree with this, too.

 

[Brother Mike]

It's interesting that you should mention Billy Brim. She is a very frequent guest teacher with Gloria Copeland on the Believer's Voice of Victory. She and Gloria are on the same page. I've been meaning to buy Billy's book on end times, as I have a dear friend that believes very word she teaches. Just to compare to what I believe about end times.

ummm. God Bless Billy Brim. She actually sits at our church frequently and most her staff show up on Sunday. My wife is good friends with her personal secretary. I am thankful for Billy as a gift, and her knowledge about Israel is World class. I am thinking I would take more of a JLB approach to this Jewish stuff though. I could be wrong, but I just can't get into it.

Billy's View on the End times is different than another one of Brother Copeland friends Hilton Sutton. They both look at Matt 24 very different. What Billy explained about it was amazing but It just did not set right with me, and Billy knew she was completely our of agreement with Sutton.

I am not the Judge. I am thankful for ministers.

Mike.

 

[Ryan]

Primarily the Shema was written on a little scroll and placed inside the mezuzah

Shema prayer.... http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/706162/jewish/Translation.htm quotes this scripture in Deut.
Deuteronomy 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God withall your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Matthew 22 NASB
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment.

So was/is the mezuzah a type/shadow of the cross?
Was there a change in the way/how we obey? might v mind? right hand doings v renewing the mind (putting on the mind of Christ)?

The same yet different?

No I wouldn't say anything was/is different. The mezuzah is just like looking onto one more peice of the puzzle and understanding our Messiah. He wants to be involved in every aspect of our life. So now, when I go past the mezuzah in the mornings, not only does it remind me of who I represent, but also how to behave and the price Jesus paid when I sometimes fail to live up to his standard. It is like another form of taking communion.

 

[stovebolts]

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19 NIV)

For the life of me I can't discern any practical or spiritual significance in this one.

If I understand correctly this is where Jews get their (misguided?) prohibition against having cheese on a hamburger (mixing milk and meat products).

This is when I wish I had my Ramban commentary back [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION]s !!!! Jason, since you have my commentary, please post this commentary. In the meantime, I will do my best to recall from my study of Exodus a few years ago. Here goes digging out the cob webs.

The core essence is this. When a calve is born, it relies on it's mothers milk to survive. Without it's mothers milk, it dies. As such, it's mothers milk is what gives and sustains life for the young calf just as a mother breast milk gives and sustains life for a new born child.

This teaches us the value of all life and that which sustains life. Think about this. The calve would be nursing on that same milk.

Take pause for a moment... Your going to cook a baby calve in it's mother's milk. You don't get a sick spot in your stomach when you think about that? If you do get a sick spot in your stomach, what is that telling you?

 

[stovebolts]

How does this endless studying of Rabbinic literature have anything to do with faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Do you ask a question or do you point an accusation? It seems to me that you are against the study of Rabbinic literature and that you do not see any link to those studies with our fatih.

I would maintain that the Sages have much to bring to the table that strengthen our faith.

[MENTION=91415]Ryan[/MENTION] would like to study the Bible, the 613 commandments as found in the Bible to be specific. Since the Jews were in covenant to keep and live out the 613 commandments, then it would follow that those who had to live out those commandments would be best versed in them. As such, the Rabbi's and Sages have much to offer by way of study and when we over lap their teachings with the teachings of Jesus, we get a better understanding of our New Testament.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

What does Paul mean by this?
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[JLB]

we uphold the law.

Which law?

@Ryan would like to study the Bible, the 613 commandments as found in the Bible to be specific. Since the Jews were in covenant to keep and live out the 613 commandments, then it would follow that those who had to live out those commandments would be best versed in them. As such, the Rabbi's and Sages have much to offer by way of study and when we over lap their teachings with the teachings of Jesus, we get a better understanding of our New Testament.

How many people do we find that God commended for keeping the Law of Moses?

We are all free to do and study what we want.

My question is: How can studying the commentaries of those who reject Jesus Christ as Messiah, possible be of any value for faith, when we have the scriptures of the New testament writers, as well as those God commended in the Old Testament for living a life of faith?


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

My question is: How can studying the commentaries of those who reject Jesus Christ as Messiah, possible be of any value for faith, when we have the scriptures of the New testament writers, as well as those God commended in the Old Testament for living a life of faith?

If you are against something going into it, you will never find or see any value and it will remain forever hidden from you.

As an example: If we look at three wells that were dug in Genesis all we will see are three wells. However, if we study this from a Jewish perspective we will see that they saw these wells as thee temples. The first temple relates to Solomon's temple. The second well relates to the Second Temple and the third well relates to the Messianic reign of Christ. How do we relate these? We relate them by the names which were given the wells.

Jesus said, "tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days" is fulfilling the prophesy found in Isaac's well. Thus, another example of Jesus fulfilling the Law aka Torah (scriptures in the first five books of our bibles).

It is my hope that this post, along with the others I have repeated myself in answer the questions you've asked in your previous post. If you cannot find the answers in this post or other recent posts then you need to read them again

 

[JLB]

If you are against something going into it, you will never find or see any value and it will remain forever hidden from you.

Im not against studying the scriptures, all the scriptures.

But reading commentary from those that are not filled with God's Spirit, and who reject Jesus as Messiah, is not something I will waste my time studying.

esus said, "tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days"

19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Not a literal Temple that the Messiah will occupy, but His Body.


This is a good example of why you should steer clear of commentary by unsaved Jews.



JLB

 

[reba]

Not using the term 'law keepers' for any other reason then description or identification .. If you have another phrase please just let me know...dont mean for it to be rude

I am interested in a few answers from the 'law keepers'. I may have more questions and or counter parts after an answer

Which laws do you keep? Like how do you divide them up. How 'deep' do you keep kosher ? As in 2 kitchens? these are real basic.

 

[TOG]

Not using the term 'law keepers' for any other reason then description or identification .. If you have another phrase please just let me know...dont mean for it to be rude

I personally prefer the term "Torah observant", as in "Torah Observant Gentile (in case you were wondering). I'm not offended in any way by "law keeper" or similar terms, though.

I am interested in a few answers from the 'law keepers'. I may have more questions and or counter parts after an answer

Which laws do you keep? Like how do you divide them up. How 'deep' do you keep kosher ? As in 2 kitchens? these are real basic.

I keep all the laws that I can keep and which are applicable to me. Some laws only apply to certain groups, such as Levites, kings, farmers or other groups to which I don't belong. They don't apply to me. Some commandments require something to which we don't have access today, such as an Aaronic priesthood or human high priest, a temple in Jerusalem or they can only be applied if you live in Israel. I can't keep those laws. I keep those commandments that I can keep, though. I eat only Biblically kosher food and keep the Sabbath according to the Biblical commands. I also celebrate the Biblical feasts, such as Passover, the Days of Unleavened Bread and the others. I don't even try to fulfill all the rabbinical commandments that have been added over the past 3000 years. They are the "heavy burdens, grievous to be born" that Jesus talked about (Matt. 23:4). Having "2 kitchens" (it's actually 3 sets of everything in one kitchen) is part of those rabbinical commandments.

The TOG
​

 

[JLB]

Not using the term 'law keepers' for any other reason then description or identification .. If you have another phrase please just let me know...dont mean for it to be rude

I personally prefer the term "Torah observant", as in "Torah Observant Gentile (in case you were wondering). I'm not offended in any way by "law keeper" or similar terms, though.

I am interested in a few answers from the 'law keepers'. I may have more questions and or counter parts after an answer

Which laws do you keep? Like how do you divide them up. How 'deep' do you keep kosher ? As in 2 kitchens? these are real basic.

I keep all the laws that I can keep and which are applicable to me. Some laws only apply to certain groups, such as Levites, kings, farmers or other groups to which I don't belong. They don't apply to me. Some commandments require something to which we don't have access today, such as an Aaronic priesthood or human high priest, a temple in Jerusalem or they can only be applied if you live in Israel. I can't keep those laws. I keep those commandments that I can keep, though. I eat only Biblically kosher food and keep the Sabbath according to the Biblical commands. I also celebrate the Biblical feasts, such as Passover, the Days of Unleavened Bread and the others. I don't even try to fulfill all the rabbinical commandments that have been added over the past 3000 years. They are the "heavy burdens, grievous to be born" that Jesus talked about (Matt. 23:4). Having "2 kitchens" (it's actually 3 sets of everything in one kitchen) is part of those rabbinical commandments.

The TOG
​

Could you make a list of the Laws that are applicable for us who are Gentiles that don't live in Israel?


JLB

 

[TOG]

Could you make a list of the Laws that are applicable for us who are Gentiles that don't live in Israel?

Thought you had me, didn't you. Well, it just so happens that I actually have such a list. I made it when I first decided to study the law. The first thing I did in my studies was to read through the law and write down every commandment I could find. Give me some time to find the list and I'll post it. It's not nearly as long as you probably think.

The TOG
​

 

[reba]

TOG thank you for your answer i will try to remember "Torah observant"

In reading your reply i read you keep the laws like every one else, that being, how you feel they apply to you... ... I was under the impression there would be something more.

God writes 1Co_10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

You have labeled your self a gentile I see gentile is one of the 3 choices why not label your self of the church of God?