The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

[Cornelius]

Understanding about the Word comes because our spirit is in perfect harmony with the Word of God.Christ in me, recognize truth, because Christ is truth.Its like looking into a mirror.2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

The numeric pattern in the Bible is pure and scientific as well. I have spoken of it before and those who do not believe the Bible is the Word of God find it difficult to bring themselves to do an unbiased study on it. Many just shout numerology (out of ignorance) or they think its talking about the Bible Code (which is also not) It means if you take one letter out of the original manuscripts from which we received our Bibles,(both the Greek and Hebrew text) that numeric pattern falls down. That is why we have this warning:Rev 22:18 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.


So the warning is there, not just because of doctrine, but also because of the numeric pattern that runs through the WHOLE Bible. Making this warning relevant to the whole Word and not just to Revelation as some are fond to advocate.

Fortunately this is not my opinion, its mathematical facts and all are welcome to research the truth of it.Nobody so far has been able to disprove it.

C

 

[Guest]

Understanding about the Word comes because our spirit is in perfect harmony with the Word of God. Christ in me, recognize truth, because Christ is truth.

Well, I actually agree. The Spirit in us is one external source which can be appealed to. Though, I fear it is merely one and not as conclusive as I would desire.

Numerology is not my thing, but I suppose it could be convincing to some.

 

[Cornelius]

So the numeric pattern "self-authenticates" the Bible.

This numeric pattern is NOT found in the Apocrypha books.ONLY in what we call the Bible.

Psa 12:6 The words of Jehovah are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, Purified seven times.

 

[Cornelius]

Numerology is not my thing,

As I pointed out: Its NOT numerology. There is a huge difference . One is New Age philosophy (numerology)
the other is MATHS (numeric)

Please do not confuse the two.

C

 

[follower of Christ]

Without an external source to establish the Bible as the Word of God, what the Bible says doesn't help.

Sorry the the EVIDENCE presented in scripture as Ive already presented SHOWS that it IS the very words of God Himself.
The Spirit confirms this to those whom have that Spirit.

It's in The Sacred Word of Thor, so The Sacred Word of Thor says it's the word of Thor.

And what 'spirit' of Thor would there be to confirm that 'word' ? A demon perhaps ?

 

[Guest]

As I pointed out: Its NOT numerology. There is a huge difference . One is New Age philosophy (numerology)
the other is MATHS (numeric)

Please do not confuse the two.

Please accept my apologies. I didn't intend to misrepresent you post.

 

[dadof10]

You are most welcome to see those men as your final authority.

Please...If you are willing to have an intelligent conversation, I would be happy to respond in kind, but if you are going to start kicking straw-dogs, simply don't respond. I thought you had more to bring to the table than that, Cornelius.

This is what I wrote and no thinking person can get "You are most welcome to see those men as your final authority" from THESE words:

“Sorry Cornelius. I should have been clear. The Holy Spirit being the final authority for all Truth is, of course, assumed in my post and (I think) everyone else's. The issue is HOW He operates in time and space, how He communicates this Truth to us. This is, and always has been, done through the “mere men†within Christ's Church. It was not, and has never been, done through personal interpretation of Scripture alone, which is subjectivity and the real problem within Christianity.

Would you like to respond to what I actually wrote, and CLARIFIED?

 

[Cornelius]

“Sorry Cornelius. I should have been clear. The Holy Spirit being the final authority for all Truth is, of course, assumed in my post and (I think) everyone else's. The issue is HOW He operates in time and space, how He communicates this Truth to us. This is, and always has been, done through the “mere men†within Christ's Church. It was not, and has never been, done through personal interpretation of Scripture alone, which is subjectivity and the real problem within Christianity.[/b]

Would you like to respond to what I actually wrote, and CLARIFIED?

1) The problem with your statement is that when you say it like that, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has the authority to override the Word of God (Bible) Now at this very moment you share this view with a group of Protestants , that "hear" from "god" and one such person has even told me that "god" told her, through the Holy Spirit, that Paul was immature when he wrote the Bible and as such is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Thing is; the Holy Spirit NEVER disagrees with His Word (Bible).
People can hear from the Holy Spirit, things like : God to such and such and give a bottle of milk but that is not hearing something contrary to the Bible. It is in line with what the Holy Spirit teaches through the Bible.

2) You statement about us never getting anything through "personal interpretation" is not scriptural. I will give you the scripture verse (but you see , we have a problem, you not believing this verse has the final authority )1Jn 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

3) The TRUE church, has a five fold ministry over it. Pastor, evangelist , teacher, prophet and apostle.
Anything else is just man made.

When God ordaines a teacher in the five fold ministry, this man opens what is written to us.Not his own new ideas . No man has ever been allowed to add to doctrine, or to take it away. No man has authority over the people of God (that is why we are called the people of GOD, and not the people of a man )

No teacher in the five fold ministry will teach me anything that is contrary to what the Scriptures speak of. The anointing teaches me and the five fold ministry teacher confirms that which the Bible says.

To confuse the writers of the Bible with "mere men" would be wrong, because when we look at what they wrote, you will see that in this case, God needed to come over them in a special way. God wanted to write the Bible and for that He had to write through them and He did.

The whole Bible is numerically perfect. Old and New Testaments.

The numeric pattern is God seal, that HE wrote the Bible and called it HIS Word.

 

[feather]

Cornelius,

This is one of my favorite debates...

So you hold that the Bible (in its present day form as we know it in our various English translations) has never been changed or altered from its "original" form? And your "proof" is the Bible itself? Isn't that a bit like saying "I know the words in the Bible are true because the words in the Bible say they are true?

How do you explain the adaptations made to scripture during the reformation (for primarily political reasons)?

Without citing verses from the Bible itself-- can you formulate a good argument to support your position?

 

[francisdesales]

So the numeric pattern "self-authenticates" the Bible.

This numeric pattern is NOT found in the Apocrypha books.ONLY in what we call the Bible.

Psa 12:6 The words of Jehovah are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, Purified seven times.

Oh no, not this garbage again...

If you look hard enough, all books of length have "numeric patterns". For example, most books start with page one and continue on in a pattern of "x+1"... Please. Let's not go there.

They prove absolutely nothing, CERTAINLY NOT that God had anything to do with the bible, since any book with a numerical pattern could have been devised by man. Numerical patterns do not prove the existence of divine beings, much less that He/They wrote this book. NOR do they DISPROVE OTHER "Scriptures". The whole idea is silly.

This numerical mumbo jumbo is for those of weak faith in God and must resort to "scientific evidence" to "prove" the Bible, rather than accepting the word of others on faith, as God calls us to do over and over in the very Scriptures you defend.

 

[francisdesales]

Without an external source to establish the Bible as the Word of God, what the Bible says doesn't help.

Take another consideration. Why do we use identification cards and passports today? It's because these provide an authoritative source outside of ourselves to verify we are who we claim to be.

You see, we're not opposing the Bible. We're opposing circular reasoning. We're opposing illogic. And, I presume francisdesales would agree, we have no issues with the Bible being God's Word. We simply realize it cannot serve as the basis to establish itself as itself.

Totally agree. I believe the Bible is the Word of God based upon the word of men I trust, whether people of today or people of hundreds of years ago. Being a former historian, I am well aware of the necessity of trusting the words of others to establish any sort of indirect knowledge of something I have not directly experienced. Like the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, there are some who refuse to see the sacred cow for what it is - a circular argument.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry , you are wrong again. Its in the Bible, so the Bible says it is the Word of God.

You are joking, right????

Please explain to me where the letter of Paul to Philemon is the self-authenticating Word of God... Based upon internal argument alone, if I were to see this letter, I would "KNOW" it is the Word of God???

 

[francisdesales]

I THOUGHT you and I were done here ?

Apparently, we are, since you can't put your money where your mouth is.

Maybe you could put together an argument to show that Bible is the Word of God from internal evidence alone???

Since you will or cannot, yes, we are done here...

The "Bible is the Word of God because the Word of God is in the Bible" is indeed a fallacious and circular argument. One who relies on this sort of argument rests on sand...

 

[follower of Christ]

Totally agree. I believe the Bible is the Word of God based upon the word of men I trust, whether people of today or people of hundreds of years ago.

And THIS I am fine with.
YOU believe because of what MEN say. That is YOUR choice to make.
Its when YOU start telling ME why *I* believe what I do that the problem begins.

Unfortunately, there are some who refuse to see the sacred cow for what it is - a circular argument.

Regards

And unfortunately there seem to be some who have not had a direct spiritual thing with the Spirit of God who DOES confirm the things of God to the believer He indwells.
You arent me....you havent lived my life or my walk. You have NO clue WHY I believe what I do since apparently you havent had that experience with the Holy Spirit yet.

 

[follower of Christ]

Apparently, we are, since you can't put your money where your mouth is.

Sorry chap but apparently you cant seem to comprehend that the SPIRIT endwelling TRUE believers who have been sealed by the Spirit does lead us into all truth...including the fact that the words that HE inspired ARE the words of God...

Maybe you could put together an argument to show that Bible is the Word of God from internal evidence alone???

What I gave was enough. Or are you calling Moses, and thus God, liars ?
Would you like to see the proof again ?
READERS SEE>>>> The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.
Anyone claiming that the bible DOESNT say its the word of God is either delusional or incapable of accepting the plain facts.

Since you will or cannot, yes, we are done here...

You mean since we BOTH know that you will refuse any evidence that doesnt fit your demands

The "Bible is the Word of God because the Word of God is in the Bible" is indeed a fallacious and circular argument.

Sorry chap but those of us who can read can SEE the evidence within the bible that GOD has spoken thru the prophets and apostles...
READERS SEE>>>> The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.
Shall I post it again for you ?

One who relies on this sort of argument rests on sand...

Only in your dreams...

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

The bible IS the word of God...the evidence shows that conclusively.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sorry , you are wrong again. Its in the Bible, so the Bible says it is the Word of God.

You are joking, right????

Please explain to me where the letter of Paul to Philemon is the self-authenticating Word of God... Based upon internal argument alone, if I were to see this letter, I would "KNOW" it is the Word of God???

So your claim is that the catholic church did such a MISERABLE job determining what was INSPIRED that we cant trust ANY of the New testament as BEING inspired by the Holy Spirit then ?
Apparently the CC screwed it all up, right ?

Either that or you MUST admit inspiration of Philemon and the rest of Pauls letters and if the SPIRIT of GOD INSPIRED then those INSPIRED words ARE the WORDs of GOD.
Not too complicated a concept.

So which is it ?
Inspired...or did the catholic church fail in its duties ?
And please dont insult our intelligence with an juggling act here.

Its pretty bad when a protestant trusts the WORK of gathering and testing the texts done by MEN (as directed by God) than a professing catholic seems to.

.

 

[francisdesales]

And please dont insult our intelligence with an juggling act here.

I think it is you doing the insulting here, bud...

I continue to wait for you to put your money where your mouth is, stop trying to change the subject, and tell me how the Bible proves IT is the Word of God from internal evidence. Please tell me how Philemon tells us it is the Word of God. Stop trying to insult our intelligence here.

I desire no further smoke and mirrors from you. Put your money where your mouth is and stop trying to change the subject...

 

[francisdesales]

The bible IS the word of God...the evidence shows that conclusively.

Apparently, that evidence is either secret or is beyond your ability to provide it... :nag

All you are doing is bumping your gums. How about ponying up with this "conclusive evidence"?

Where exactly is this conclusive evidence that Philemon is part of the Word of God FROM PHILEMON or ANY other part of the BIBLE????

 

[Cornelius]

So your claim is that the catholic church did such a MISERABLE job determining what was INSPIRED that we cant trust ANY of the New testament as BEING inspired by the Holy Spirit then ?
Apparently the CC screwed it all up, right ?

Either that or you MUST admit inspiration of Philemon and the rest of Pauls letters and if the SPIRIT of GOD INSPIRED then those INSPIRED words ARE the WORDs of GOD.
Not too complicated a concept.

So which is it ?
Inspired...or did the catholic church fail in its duties ?
And please dont insult our intelligence with an juggling act here.

Its pretty bad when a protestant trusts the WORK of gathering and testing the texts done by MEN (as directed by God) than a professing catholic seems to.

.

Actually I have never though about it like this, but yes, you are right . Either they failed or they did not. Did they manage to actually hear from the Holy Spirit on this one occasion?

C

 

[follower of Christ]

I think it is you doing the insulting here, bud...

Feel free to stop posting in my direction any time youd like.

I continue to wait for you to put your money where your mouth is, stop trying to change the subject, and tell me how the Bible proves IT is the Word of God from internal evidence.

Ive SHOWN CONCLUSIVELY that GOD spoke THRU His prophets TO the people...we have what was SPOKEN to them IN WRITING as recorded in our BIBLES.
If thats too hard a concept for you poster, then Im sorry but theres nothing more we can do for you. Youre living in denial.
See my next post for that evidence from GODS word yet again. This time READ it.

Please tell me how Philemon tells us it is the Word of God.

Ask YOUR church why THEY felt to include Philemon along with the other inspired writings of Paul.
IF PHilemon ISNT inspired (ie GODS word) then YOUR church (catholic church) is the ONLY one to blame...now isnt that right ;)