The Absurdity of Losing Salvation

[Diolectic]

Do y'all know what deception is?
what do you think that the warning about "another gospel" means? (2Corinth 11:4, Gal 1:6-7)

What is going on in Galatians 3:1-4 and in this verse:
2Corinth 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Why does paul fear, if they will not fall away?
the Corinthians might well bear with the other gospel.(2Co 11:4)

 

[francisdesales]

Re: COnfusion

Which Kingdom? The earthly kingdom meant for Israel and the nations or the heavenly kingdom meant for the body of Christ?

The Kingdom of Heaven. The earthly kingdom of Israel was a foreshadowing of the heavenly kingdom to be offered to the righteous by God.

Also, you are confusing one's position in Christ which doesn't change with one's practical walk which changes from day to day. You are trying to make the "Practical" walk the basis for your justification - won't work.

A person is not just if they are living in sin - no matter what sort of sophistry you try to use. An adulterous sinner is NOT saved, even if he was formerly justified 20 years ago. Your confusion is that you believe justification is a one-time-only event.

Understand you Position in Christ which is expounded in Ephesians. Just go through Ephesians 1-3 and underline all the past tense words and phrases to see what God has done.

Yes, we are adopted children of Christ. Yes, we are sealed. Past tense. But you treat salvation like some legal issue. Isn't it obvious that we have a relationship, a familial one, with God, NOT some legal ONLY justification.
Adopted children can be disowned. And yet, they remain, legally, a child of the parent. The relationship may be finished or suspended. And THAT is what is important - our relationship with God. MANY people who were the "legal" people of God died in the desert in sin - as Paul relates in 1 Cor 10 and Hebrews 3-4. He uses this as an example to NOT be so sure of your OWN entrance into the Kingdom. In Romans, Paul ALSO tells Christians to beware that they, too, can be cut off from the vine. Again, the story is clear: Persevere in the Lord, and you will be saved...

The idea of "positional" vs "practical" security is another example of how you view salvation as a legal issue, rather than a relationship with our Father in heaven. Quite honestly, it appears the message of the bible has passed you by if you think that a person is "saved" because someone declared Jesus as their Lord and Savior 25 years ago but is not walking in Christ. A person living in sin is NOT saved but is in desperate need of healing, of release from this slavery.

Your message sounds good, though, to those lukewarm Christians who want to take the easy road to the Kingdom of Heaven and think they are in Christ while they continue to live in sin...

The Bible clearly tells us that God abides in ONLY those who obey His commandments - NOT to someone who said "Lord, Lord" 20 years ago and is NOT obeying the Will of God...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: COnfusion

1. I have many times before - why not address the challenge I presented regarding to writing out the plan of salvation for us to see?

Have you ever considered that I don't follow your every post? I gave you two verses, among many, that show that the once righteous can become damned. You ignore them and tell me you addressed them before? Sorry, that isn't going to pass muster. If you have addressed them, then it should be a simple task to summarize your defense.

2. Again - Which Kingdom? The earthly kingdom meant for Israel and the nations or the heavenly kingdom meant for the body of Christ? BTW - they were not even called Christians until Acts 11:26

I answered that in my last post. As to being called Christians, what is the significance of your point?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The bolded part is where there is disagreement and where, if I may be so bold to say, is where you have problems understanding my position.

Baptism does not make one 'born again'.

Your position is that baptism doesn't make you "born again". I understand that is your position.

The problem with your "invisible" born again action is that you DO NOT KNOW if you WERE born again, if what you say is true. WHY? Because people who make your claim DO fall away.

Now. IF a person claims to be born again, follows Christ, and does good deeds, WHERE did they come from? Didn't this person have faith? Didn't Christ Himself abide in this person, enabling them to obey the commandments? Or do you suggest he did it WITHOUT Christ? So, this person had faith in Christ, did good works to verify his living faith. THEN. The person subsequently falls away. Say his wife dies and he blames God and begins to hate God. It is reality. Denying this happens is wishful thinking.

Now. You would say such a person who fell away was "never saved to begin with"? Sophistry. He exhibited ALL the qualities of a saved person. He did good deeds and had faith in Christ. Christ abided within the person!

If I take your OSAS view, can't you see that it does the opposite of what you hope that it would do - provide eternal security? Because the fact of the matter remains that you CANNOT KNOW whether you will ALSO fall away 20 years from now. Will your current brothers also accuse YOU of never having been saved to begin with? If they did, I hope you agree, they would be idiotic and contradictory. Either Christ abided in you or He did not. HOW ELSE would you claim to have faith in God today? Either you were "born again" or you weren't. Now, the Monday Morning QB is going to come along and judge whether you were "born again" of 20 years later?

There goes OSAS out the window... It is a fantasy that is self-defeating if you take the time to think it out.

Right now, while obeying the commandments, doing good works of love, having faith in Christ, these are signs that God abides in us. TODAY. If we remain as such, if we persevere, we will indeed enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But if we do NOT have Christ abiding within us, we DO NOT have life. Read 1 John 5:12. Simple and to the point.

If you do not have Christ NOW, you do not have life, no matter what "bus ticket" you thought you were promised 20 years ago...

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

1.But you treat salvation like some legal issue.
2. Adopted children can be disowned.
3. In Romans, Paul ALSO tells Christians to beware that they, too, can be cut off from the vine.
4. Persevere in the Lord, and you will be saved...
5. Quite honestly, it appears the message of the bible has passed you by if you think that a person is "saved" because someone declared Jesus as their Lord and Savior 25 years ago but is not walking in Christ.
6. A person living in sin is NOT saved but is in desperate need of healing, of release from this slavery.
7. Your message sounds good, though, to those lukewarm Christians who want to take the easy road to the Kingdom of Heaven and think they are in Christ while they continue to live in sin...
8. The Bible clearly tells us that God abides in ONLY those who obey His commandments
9. Have you ever considered that I don't follow your every post? I gave you two verses, among many, that show that the once righteous can become damned.

1. Legal? Yes…read the book of Romans.

2. You will have to prove an adopted child can be legally disowned.

3. This is a misinterpretation of Romans 11 where Paul is discussing a national level (Gentiles vs. Israel) not individual salvation. I’ve been hearing this for over 24 years. You couldn’t find individual salvation being discussed in the passage with an electron microscope.

4. This is called works salvation. Paul’s answer?
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

5. Declaring Jesus as Lord couldn’t save a dead horse – A person is saved because Christ died for their sins. Your “walking with Christ†is works salvation – see #4.

6. Define “living in sin†– how long does this go on before he blows it? The true saint cannot “live in sin†for he lives “in Christ†– he may and does sin but this does not alter his position of being in Christ.

7. See #6

8. Obey his commandments?
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,
Be honest here – do you keep the law? Do you break the law or are you perfect here?

9. What are the two verses? Show me where a church-age saint, in the body of Christ, sealed unto the day of redemption, seated in Christ in heavenly places, redeemed, justified, glorified, etc. was damned for “falling away†or whatever term you use. Don’t take me to a Jew back prior to Calvary under the law, etc. Show me where the saint I just described “loses it†and then me how they can undo all that God did.

Bottom line - you do not have a solid graps on scriptural justification - if you did you would not be running all over the place with "what if" scenarios on losing it and going to passags that are not for this age or even dealing with salvation.

You keep this up you will become as frustrated as a girraffe with a sore throat.

God bless

 

[jgredline]

1. Legal? Yes…read the book of Romans.

I am just skimming through, as I have to get back to work, but this statement AV made jumped out at me...because it is 100% true...I know it seems odd to many folks out there, but I was asked a while back what justification means and it is indeed a term used by the legal system of the day and when you grasp that, you will then ''begin'' to have an idea of what Justification ''really'' means...I will look for that post and paste it when I get the chance...But this is food for thought.

 

[biblecatholic]

OSAS?

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Galatians 5:1,4 . . . stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery . . . You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Philippians 3:11-14 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

Hebrews 3:12-14 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day . . . that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy . . .

2 Peter 2:15,20-21 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, . . . For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

 

[francisdesales]

1. Legal? Yes…read the book of Romans.

2. You will have to prove an adopted child can be legally disowned.

3. This is a misinterpretation of Romans 11 where Paul is discussing a national level (Gentiles vs. Israel) not individual salvation. I’ve been hearing this for over 24 years. You couldn’t find individual salvation being discussed in the passage with an electron microscope.

4. This is called works salvation. Paul’s answer?
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

5. Declaring Jesus as Lord couldn’t save a dead horse – A person is saved because Christ died for their sins. Your “walking with Christ†is works salvation – see #4.

6. Define “living in sin†– how long does this go on before he blows it? The true saint cannot “live in sin†for he lives “in Christ†– he may and does sin but this does not alter his position of being in Christ.

7. See #6

8. Obey his commandments?
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,
Be honest here – do you keep the law? Do you break the law or are you perfect here?

9. What are the two verses? Show me where a church-age saint, in the body of Christ, sealed unto the day of redemption, seated in Christ in heavenly places, redeemed, justified, glorified, etc. was damned for “falling away†or whatever term you use. Don’t take me to a Jew back prior to Calvary under the law, etc. Show me where the saint I just described “loses it†and then me how they can undo all that God did.

1. I didn't say that justification did not have some legal components to it. If you note my post, you will see I said salvation was not ONLY a legal issue - and more importantly, it is a relationship.

2. LOL! Happens all the time. Children apply for emancipation and parents legally take children out of their wills, effectively disowning them.

3. NATIONAL level? I didn't realize that Gentiles were a nation... Now if Paul is saying that the Jews AS A NATION had lost salvation and then the Gentile "nation" (Gentiles are non-Jews) can lose salvation as an entire people, then I guess no one is left to be saved... Apparently, you have Paul removing ALL men from salvation.

4. What is works salvation? It means earning salvation. It has nothing to do with "doing" something, because faith ITSELF is a human action. If you think that faith saves, you are then contradicting your definition of works salvation. Eph 2 talks about works in verse 10, which you omit. As to Titus, we cannot earn salvation, even by good and righteous works. We can lose salvation, however, if you consider examples such as 1 Cor 6:9-10 among many others.

5. Since Jesus died for EVERYONE'S sins, then by your logic, everyone is going to heaven. This conversation is a moot point...

6. I don't know the timetable that is required in every situation for one to "blow it". Apparently, God is able to judge such matters, since HE knows the heart of each of us. When one is living in sin, He will be able to judge the relationship that exists.

8. Obey His commandments. There are too many to begin to post them all, but I will give you one...

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thes 1:8-9

It is pretty clear that disobeying God does not give you a "lower place" in heaven...

Your verses do not say we no longer have to obey God's perpetual commandments, such as honor your parents or not to kill. They only say that merely obeying them outwardly earns nothing. Paul clearly tells us in Romans that NOTHING we do can EARN salvation. It comes freely from God. But disobeying God's commandments earns you eternal punishment.

Or is this null and void in your scheme, as well?

For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23

9. What are the two verses?
2 Peter 2:20-21 and Ezek 18:24.

God offers salvation freely. This means we MUST accept it. In your scheme, God FORCES us. That is outside the bounds of Scriptures. God is looking for a relationship. This is the idea of covenant found in both Testaments. This is not one-sided. As such, when a person refuses the gifts of God, even if at one time, he accepted them, he is in real need of healing - without which, he DIES spiritually.

If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 1 John 5:16,17.

Certain sinful actions kill our relationship with God - leading to spiritual death. Note the word "brother". Thus, even Christians CAN commit deadly sins which lead to our disinheritance of the Kingdom of heaven.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10

We cannot earn salvation, but Paul clearly tells us that WE can lose it.

Bottom line - you do not have a solid graps on scriptural justification - if you did you would not be running all over the place with "what if" scenarios on losing it and going to passags that are not for this age or even dealing with salvation. You keep this up you will become as frustrated as a girraffe with a sore throat.

This that your idea of trying to refute me? If you want to know how the FIRST Christians read the Bible, maybe you should read the Church Fathers, rather than people inventing stuff 1500 years later. Don't believe me, read Ignatius or Irenaeus or Justin the Martyr, or any other such men. Find something about OSAS in their writings. Then, perhaps, you may convince me. Otherwise, yours is just another invention meant to tweak the ears of the weak-willed who are looking for an easy way to the Kingdom, who don't know the meaning of sacrifice, perseverance and discipleship.

Luther was pretty smart. Make salvation automatic - then do whatever you feel like. Yep. That's the ticket. Is it a wonder that such ideas endure and that so many people are taken in by such false teachings? That mankind really likes the sound of such an easy "religion"? Make salvation legal only and do what you will.

Respectfully, I think it is your "grasp" that is incorrect.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

1. 1 Corinthians 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

2. 1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

3. Galatians 5:1,4 . . . stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery . . . You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

4. Philippians 3:11-14 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

5. 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

6. 1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

7. Hebrews 3:12-14 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day . . . that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

8. Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy . . .

9. 2 Peter 2:15,20-21 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, . . . For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

I do not have the time to do a full bown exposition of these passages.

1. Read the context - Paul is concerned he will be cast away from his ministry – not salvation.

2. Where do you get the idea fall means falling from salvation – you are reading into this.

3. These folks were seeking to justify themselves by the law so they never entered into the opportunity to experience grace.

4. Paul is pressing for a prize not salvation – you read into these passages what you want to.

5. You depart from the faith the moment you quit living by faith – a saint can get fouled up and led by unclean spirits.

6. A saint can stray – again you are reading loss of salvation into another verse that doesn’t deal with this. If Paul thought a saint could lose it then he would have written a whole epistle on it!!!

7. The end is the end of a time period – not one’s life. The context of Hebrews is entering a rest. Your bible version is unclear.

8. See #7 – Plus these are Jews not blood-bought saints in this age of grace in the body of Christ.

9. Absolutely nothing to do with blood-bought saints in this age – again these folks are straying from the faith – just like you probably do without even knowing it.

I do not expect you to except nor understand nor do I have the time to teach a full-blown overview of the New Testament in regards to the Church and it’s relationship to Israel and the kingdom.

Until you can show me you have an understanding of scriptural justification these trading verses back and forthis futile.

 

[biblecatholic]

AVBunyan

1. Read the context - Paul is concerned he will be cast away from his ministry – not salvation.

2. Where do you get the idea fall means falling from salvation – you are reading into this.

3. These folks were seeking to justify themselves by the law so they never entered into the opportunity to experience grace.

4. Paul is pressing for a prize not salvation – you read into these passages what you want to.

5. You depart from the faith the moment you quit living by faith – a saint can get fouled up and led by unclean spirits.

6. A saint can stray – again you are reading loss of salvation into another verse that doesn’t deal with this. If Paul thought a saint could lose it then he would have written a whole epistle on it!!!


I do not expect you to except nor understand nor do I have the time to teach a full-blown overview of the New Testament in regards to the Church and it’s relationship to Israel and the kingdom.

Until you can show me you have an understanding of scriptural justification these trading verses back and forthis futile.

it is not a reading into the scriptures what"i"want ,this is the message that is conveyed by the scriptures. paul did not have to spell it out because everybody knew you could lose salvation.this doctrine that you believe didnt even appear on the scene until a man came up with it a couple hundred years ago. so it wasnt an issue. many doctrines you believe arent spelled out but yet you believe them any way.


the "isreal"thing we'll have to discuss some other time.[/quote]

 

[destiny]

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Rev.2:5

The bible just doesn't support OSAS, no matter how you try to piece and patch the doctrine together. But it makes us feel good :-D

 

[golfjack]

reply

Destiny, Like I told you before: Yes one can lose salvation, but in order for that to happen, there must be a very, very high bar to pass over. Hebrews 10:26-29 tells us that one has to committ the unpardonable sin by actually telling Jesus to leave their life. Also, the caveat is found in Heb. 6_4-6.

Also Matt. 24:13 is an end-time verse concerning the first three and half years Tribulation, and if you believe in the rapture, we will not be here.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Imagican]

golf,

WHY would it be ANY more difficult than for one to DECIDE that they DID NOT 'believe' in Christ OR God ANY MORE.

The Bible CLEARLY offers that there WILL be those that CHOOSE to 'follow LIES'. And for THESE, God HIMSELF, will offer STRONG delusion so that they WILL 'BELIEVE' the lies.

Av, ANYONE that believes in OSAS, Do you HONESTLY even THINK that God is there to FORCE 'anyone' into SALVATION? That if one TRULY was 'saved' that they NO LONGER have a 'choice' as to WHO they follow? And IF one that TRULY WAS SAVED turned thier backs on God and chose instead to worship SATAN, do you HONESTLY 'believe' that these would NOT be 'lost'?

God HAS POWER, The Holy Spirit IS power, BUT do you even THINK that God would chose to EXERT this power to save one that CHOSE to be 'lost'?

OSAS is some 'new age' Christianity that is 'full' of 'warm fuzzies' rather than 'REALITY'. Watered down to the point of BELIEVING that one COULD Blasphemy the Holy Spirit and STILL be 'saved'. Good luck on that one.

And JUST because those that BELIEVE this cannot FATHOM the TRUTH that lies in PERSONAL FREEDOM to CHOOSE does NOT take away the FACT that EACH of us HAS the FREEDOM to CHOOSE. We are NOT mindless drones NOR were we MEANT to 'act like them'.

God want's those that CHOOSE to BE 'saved'. He does NOT force ANYONE into ANYTHING. If this were so, there would be NO NEED for witness or testimony to others, for He would have already CHOSEN those that were to BE saved and those that weren't.

And BELIEVE this: IF God had ALREADY chosen who would and wouldn't BE 'saved', there would be NO NEED FOR THE WORD or the apostles or ANYTHING other than the Holy Spirit. He want's those that have MATURED enough to UNDERSTAND love and practice it. NOT simpletons that simply SAY they are saved, but those that TRULY have a DESIRE to 'be saved'.

MEC

MEC

 

[jgredline]

golf,

WHY would it be ANY more difficult than for one to DECIDE that they DID NOT 'believe' in Christ OR God ANY MORE.

The Bible CLEARLY offers that there WILL be those that CHOOSE to 'follow LIES'. And for THESE, God HIMSELF, will offer STRONG delusion so that they WILL 'BELIEVE' the lies.

Av, ANYONE that believes in OSAS, Do you HONESTLY even THINK that God is there to FORCE 'anyone' into SALVATION? That if one TRULY was 'saved' that they NO LONGER have a 'choice' as to WHO they follow? And IF one that TRULY WAS SAVED turned thier backs on God and chose instead to worship SATAN, do you HONESTLY 'believe' that these would NOT be 'lost'?

God HAS POWER, The Holy Spirit IS power, BUT do you even THINK that God would chose to EXERT this power to save one that CHOSE to be 'lost'?

OSAS is some 'new age' Christianity that is 'full' of 'warm fuzzies' rather than 'REALITY'. Watered down to the point of BELIEVING that one COULD Blasphemy the Holy Spirit and STILL be 'saved'. Good luck on that one.

And JUST because those that BELIEVE this cannot FATHOM the TRUTH that lies in PERSONAL FREEDOM to CHOOSE does NOT take away the FACT that EACH of us HAS the FREEDOM to CHOOSE. We are NOT mindless drones NOR were we MEANT to 'act like them'.

God want's those that CHOOSE to BE 'saved'. He does NOT force ANYONE into ANYTHING. If this were so, there would be NO NEED for witness or testimony to others, for He would have already CHOSEN those that were to BE saved and those that weren't.

And BELIEVE this: IF God had ALREADY chosen who would and wouldn't BE 'saved', there would be NO NEED FOR THE WORD or the apostles or ANYTHING other than the Holy Spirit. He want's those that have MATURED enough to UNDERSTAND love and practice it. NOT simpletons that simply SAY they are saved, but those that TRULY have a DESIRE to 'be saved'.

MEC

MEC

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED....The reason this saying has a bad rap is because of ignorance....Those who criticize it don't even know what it really means to be justified....Mec, Destiny, Joe, anybody who believes that one can loose his salvation, please explain to me what Justification means...What did Paul mean when he wrote Romans?....

OSAS is NOT an E-TICKET to sin...Quite the contrary....A true believer will understand how this fits in with 1 John 3.....

The greatest theologians understood this....People associate Holiness with Wesley, but the fact is a true believer Will in fact live a life of holiness.....

God does not want ''sheep'' to live in fear of loosing their eternal lives to the wolf....

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand

Evidence in Paul’s writings and the other New Testament epistles also indicates that those who are truly born again will persevere to the end.... There remains ''no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus'' ....It would be unjust for God to give any kind of ''ETERNAL TORMENT'' to those who are Christians.....no condemnation remains for them, for the entire penalty for their sins has been paid....Jesus said ''IT IS FINISHED''!!!!

In Romans 8:30, Paul emphasizes the clear connection between God’s eternal purposes in predestination and his working out of those purposes in life..... Together with his final realization of those purposes in GLORIFYING or giving final resurrection bodies to those whom he has brought into union with Christ........ ''And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.....Sound familiar?..... Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such a certainty in God’s settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished ..... This is true of all those who are justified........ In other words, those who truly become Christians will be glorified....and will persevere to the end....

 

[Imagican]

j,

by your own admission of what scrolls across the bottom of your post, WHAT IF, one that TRULY DID 'believe' in Christ CHANGED their mind and heart. Decided that INSTEAD of 'believing in Christ', they would INSTEAD 'believe in Satan'? DENYING Christ and the price paid for 'something else'? is this IMPOSSIBLE? Or just NOT 'something' that YOU would choose to CONTEMPLATE?

And JUST because ANOTHER doesn't UNDERSTAND, does NOT make 'something' IMPOSSIBLE.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED....The reason this saying has a bad rap is because of ignorance....Those who criticize it don't even know what it really means to be justified....Mec, Destiny, Joe, anybody who believes that one can loose his salvation, please explain to me what Justification means...What did Paul mean when he wrote Romans?....

OSAS is NOT an E-TICKET to sin...Quite the contrary....A true believer will understand how this fits in with 1 John 3.....

The greatest theologians understood this....People associate Holiness with Wesley, but the fact is a true believer Will in fact live a life of holiness.....

God does not want ''sheep'' to live in fear of loosing their eternal lives to the wolf....

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand

Evidence in Paul’s writings and the other New Testament epistles also indicates that those who are truly born again will persevere to the end.... There remains ''no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus'' ....It would be unjust for God to give any kind of ''ETERNAL TORMENT'' to those who are Christians.....no condemnation remains for them, for the entire penalty for their sins has been paid....Jesus said ''IT IS FINISHED''!!!!

In Romans 8:30, Paul emphasizes the clear connection between God’s eternal purposes in predestination and his working out of those purposes in life..... Together with his final realization of those purposes in GLORIFYING or giving final resurrection bodies to those whom he has brought into union with Christ........ ''And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.....Sound familiar?..... Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such a certainty in God’s settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished ..... This is true of all those who are justified........ In other words, those who truly become Christians will be glorified....and will persevere to the end....

ooh ohh, I didn't see this.

j, YOU TELL ME; WHY MUST one wear the HOLE armor IF there is NO CHANCE of being 'turned aside'? Why is the BIBLE in existence if there is NO WAY to 'turn aside'? Is FAITH important? Then WHY can't someone LOOSE their faith and follow 'something ELSE'? We have seen it over and over. Yet YOUR answer is that they weren't SAVED to START with. Now, YOU SHOW ME where THIS is in the WORD. I can CLEARLY show examples that offer one CAN loose the gift OFFERED. Can you SHOW me ONE that says that the gift CANNOT BE LOST?

MEC

 

[jgredline]

j,

by your own admission of what scrolls across the bottom of your post, WHAT IF, one that TRULY DID 'believe' in Christ CHANGED their mind and heart. Decided that INSTEAD of 'believing in Christ', they would INSTEAD 'believe in Satan'? DENYING Christ and the price paid for 'something else'? is this IMPOSSIBLE? Or just NOT 'something' that YOU would choose to CONTEMPLATE?

And JUST because ANOTHER doesn't UNDERSTAND, does NOT make 'something' IMPOSSIBLE.

MEC

Mec
I see the ''trickery'' in your question....but none the less, I will tell you what I feel....If a person is ''Born Again'' he will persevere till the end....If a person one day decides he no longer wants to follow Jesus, guess what....He never belonged to Jesus to begin with...He was NEVER one of his sheep.....



15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[jgredline]

Can you SHOW me ONE that says that the gift CANNOT BE LOST?

MEC

Re read my post and many others that have been presented to u......

 

[AVBunyan]

Mec I see the ''trickery'' in your question....but none the less, I will tell you what I feel....If a person is ''Born Again'' he will persevere till the end....If a person one day decides he no longer wants to follow Jesus, guess what....He never belonged to Jesus to begin with...He was NEVER one of his sheep.....

JG - these folks do not know the difference between Position and Practical - Standing vs. State - They confuse Paul's passages that deal with the saint's Practical walk with justification - They seek to make the Practical the basis for the Position.

They are just blinded to this truth.

Enjoy your posts JG 8-)

God bless

 

[jgredline]

JG - these folks do not know the difference between Position and Practical - Standing vs. State - They confuse Paul's passages that deal with the saint's Practical walk with justification - They seek to make the Practical the basis for the Position.

They are just blinded to this truth.

Enjoy your posts JG 8-)

God bless

Thanks AV...I appreciate the encouragement, epecially in the lions den...

When we are dealing with the issue of Salvation, we have the Book of Romans that was written to the Saints / Gentiles.....While this ''Gospel of Romans'' is indeed written for us, the Jews / Israel can certainly partake in the truths offered here.....

The book of ''HEBREWS'' was written to guess who? ''The Hebrews / Israel''....While we can take with us many of the truths contained in this marvelous book, it is important to know who these books were written to so that we can keep it in proper context....

Romans 1
I. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:5 by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:6 among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Pauls primary ministry by Jesus was to the Gentiles.....

Hebrews 1
I. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Here the writer, Whom I believe is Paul is telling the Hebrews / Jews / Israel
that the days of the prophets whom previously spoke to them is now over with the Creator Jesus (God) Christ himself......


So if people could simply Understand this simple truth, then the plan of Salvation and Justification will begin to make sense......