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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

beloved57 said:
That scripture does not state that.
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John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

The words "the world" includes everybody. So, yes, the scripture very explicitly does say that Christ died for everyone and eternal life is available to everyone who will repent and believe.

HOWEVER; while eternal life is offered to all mankind, not everyone accepts God's gift.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:19-20 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
 
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fg
This is ALL that I said:
"Noone is saved by reconciliation, according to the Bible:
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That is what you said not what the scripture says.
 
Jim Parker said:
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

The words "the world" includes everybody.

So, yes, the scripture very explicitly does say that.
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I have no problem with them scriptures. But they don't say explicitly the world is everybody, you said that!
 
fg
sure does. It is clear that no one is saved by reconciliation.
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That is what you say, scripture doesn't say that. To be reconciled to God is to be put in to a right relationship with Him, in His Favor.
 
God may love the world, but the most of the world does not love God.

John 15:18-19 "If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.
 
beloved57 said:
That scripture does not state that.
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Hi Beloved, Actually, John 3:16, one of the most quoted Bible Scriptures, and the first one I memorized as a child, is not in the oldest and most reliable transcripts. It was added later on. Some of the earlier translators have John 3:16 thru 3:21 in brackets () to show that it was not in oldest texts or manuscripts. And probably true. For from the Beginning of sin in the world and it's curse upon God's creation, God said His Spirit would not always strive with man, and changed their longevity to 120 years. And when the godly line or those who worshiped God saw that the daughters of men were fair, they married to whom he willed and bore children to them that became known and great in the world.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imagination of his heart was continually evil, it grieved God in His heart, And God decided to destroy man and all that He created for He was grieved that He had made them. But Noah was humble before the Lord and God had mercy upon him and gave Noah and his family Mercy and Grace, and was saved in the Ark (a type of Christ) (Gen. 6:1-8)
From this point on, God has never had any love for the world in it's corrupted state, For this world is Satan's dominion, for Adam and Eve lost dominion of the earth to Satan in the Garden. Every place and every where, God has called us to be not a part of and come out of this world, for His wrath is coming to destroy this earth and wicked men, and to create a new heaven and earth for His beloved, with a new body and Spirit. And we will dwell with Him forever and forever, Amen (Revelation Chapter 21) (1 Corinthians chapter 15). The Lord is not saving the world, He is calling out the elected and called according to His purpose that He had planned beforehand (the Church) His body, Sons of God and heirs to the throne. Only the Church has this calling, those saved afterwards will be citizens and the attendants of the Throne of God. (Revelation chapters 5, 6, 7.
 
Douglas Summers said:
Hi Beloved, Actually, John 3:16, one of the most quoted Bible Scriptures, and the first one I memorized as a child, is not in the oldest and most reliable transcripts.
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John 3:16 is in the Morphological GMT. It is based on the oldest and most reliable manuscripts in existence.
What "earlier and more reliable manuscripts" did not have John 3:16?
Who do you think added it?
 
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Douglas Summers said:
From this point on, God has never had any love for the world in it's corrupted state, For this world is Satan's dominion, for Adam and Eve lost dominion of the earth to Satan in the Garden.
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Where did you get that notion?
God does not change; He does not stop loving.
God knew from before creation exactly what man would do and exactly how He would rescue mankind from the deceit of Satan.
The history of salvation is the history of God working with mankind out of His unswerving and infinite love for man in order to prepare man for the advent of Christ and the opening of paradise to whoever would believe.
 
beloved57 said:
Does Rom 5:10 say that we were reconciled to God by Christ's Death or Resurrection ?
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hello beloved57, dirtfarmer here
You need to look at the last part of the scripture: "For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled we shall be saved by his life. The last phrase stated that salvation comes by his life.

The whole world was reconciled, but the whole world doesn't have faith in the cross work of Christ. The thing that consigns a soul to the lake of fire is unbelief. The believer's works will be judged to determine rewards, not for entrance into heaven. By the same token, the unbeliever's works will be judged to determine the degree of punishment not their destination into the lake of fire. Every person's destinations is determined at the point of physical death; believers go to heaven, unbelievers go the lake of fire. There is no salvation after physical death.



 
I said this:
""Noone is saved by reconciliation, according to the Bible:"
beloved57 said:
fg
This is ALL that I said:
That is what you said not what the scripture says.
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If my statement is in error, please provide any verse that says that salvation is by reconciliation. That would refute my view.
 
Jim Parker said:
According to Mat 25:31-46, where Jesus describes how He will judge mankind, His judgment will be based on what people did or did not do. There is no mention by Jesus that belief is a consideration.

Jesus also said that people will be judged according to their works at John 5:28-29. (No mention of belief)

Paul said the same thing at Romans 6:2-10 (no mention of belief)

There are two possible outcomes for man; (1) eternal life united to God in Christ and (2) eternal death separated from God.
Sin separates us from God.
God alone has life by nature. Anyone who has no fellowship with God is dead in his sins and will find himself in hell.
If anyone, believer or not, does not repent and confess his sins, he will remain separated from God and if he continues in his sins and dies in that state his estate will be eternal separation from God in hell.

To believe and to continued to sin without repentance is worse than not believing.

iakov the fool
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hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

The judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is the judgment of the nations as to how they treated God's chosen people during the 7 year tribulation period.

John 5:28-29 has reference to Daniel 12:1-2 in which it is stated " The children of thy people; thy people shall be delivered". How do we know that this is during the tribulation? " there shall be a time trouble, such as never was since there was a nation".

As to "no mention of belief" Romans 6:2-10; What does, "we that are dead to sin live any longer therein", have reference to if not belief?

I believe that your statement, "Anyone who has no fellowship with God is dead in his sins and will find himself in hell", is incorrect. Fellowship of the believer with God is interrupted by being overtaken by a fault(sin) but does nothing as far as relationship. When we believed God's report about Jesus dying and being resurrected, a relationship with God was established and we began to have fellowship with him. That relationship can never be broken once established.

How can one continue in sin that is dead in Christ to sin but alive unto God. As I have stated before salvation is a 3 part process.
1) we have been saved from the penalty of sin
2) we have been saved from the power of sin
3) we will be saved from the presence of sin when we are resurrected from the dead or changed in the the moment and twinkling of a eye.
 
beloved57 said:
fg

That is what you say, scripture doesn't say that. To be reconciled to God is to be put in to a right relationship with Him, in His Favor.
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Then, according to your definition, everyone is saved, because of what 2 Cor 5:19 plainly says.

You've not proven that "the world" in that verse only means "world of the elect".

Without clear and unambiguous clarification, the phrase "the world" does mean everyone. Not just some.
 
Jim Parker said:
PLease define reconciliation
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Gladly.

The word in 2 Cor 5:19 is: katallassō

1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
1a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
1b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
1c) to receive one into favour

It has to do with the removal of the sin barrier between God and man. That allows God's grace to be extended to mankind, since God's justice has been atoned (propitiated) by the cross work of Christ and paying the sin debt of mankind.

Reconciliation is not salvation, or, according to 2 Cor 5:19, everyone will be saved. Which is wrong.
 
Jim Parker said:
Where did you get that notion?
God does not change; He does not stop loving.
God knew from before creation exactly what man would do and exactly how He would rescue mankind from the deceit of Satan.
The history of salvation is the history of God working with mankind out of His unswerving and infinite love for man in order to prepare man for the advent of Christ and the opening of paradise to whoever would believe.
Click to expand...
Study all of the Scriptures of God's speaking about the world.
 
Jim Parker said:
Arrrgh!
Where does this nonsense COME FROM???
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The Jew, the Gentile and the Church. God has made specific promises to the Jew and different promises to the Church in how we are established in the Kingdom of God. Jim, it is all there in the Scriptures, but you have to be looking for it.
 
Jim Parker said:
Morphological GMT
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OK. Never heard of this.
Can you please explain what this reference book is and where it came from?
It's just a new one to me...might have to buy another book and add it to the library. (Been packing and I realized that I have enough books for a library)
 
FreeGrace said:
Gladly.

The word in 2 Cor 5:19 is: katallassō

1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
1a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
1b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
1c) to receive one into favour

It has to do with the removal of the sin barrier between God and man. That allows God's grace to be extended to mankind, since God's justice has been atoned (propitiated) by the cross work of Christ and paying the sin debt of mankind.

Reconciliation is not salvation, or, according to 2 Cor 5:19, everyone will be saved. Which is wrong.
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:thumbsup
 
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