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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
So in context, you are saying God only wanted the 12 Apostles saved?
That is who Jesus is referring to in the passage you quoted.
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
John 17:6-8
At that particular moment Jesus was praying for His 12 disciples.
Thats the context.
Thats how the phony man made doctrine of OSAS is promoted, by taking verses out of context, and projected a preconceive idea upon them, rather than just reading and believing the truth.
God so loved the world is plain and simple.
Yet you deny these words of Jesus Christ in favor of your man made theology.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17
I asked a simple question that comes from the scriptures.
Does God love the world?
- For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...
The answer is yes, and it should be an answer we can all agree upon.
The reason God sent His Son into the world to die for our sins is because He loves us.
Your answer is no.
Thank God we have the scriptures to teach us, and the Holy Spirit to guide us.
- God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Let’s try another question.
Did God send His Son into the world to, condemn it or to save it?
JLB
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No, not just the twelve apostles , please see Jhn 17:2, 3 & 6 below as it sets the scope of their conversation. There are many examples of Christ teaching a spiritual concept, which wasn't necessarily limited only to those He was in the immediate conversation with. In terms of salvation, the Apostles, just as everyone else who becomes saved, are saved on exactly the same basis. However, the overriding point is that Jesus DID NOT, and WOULD NOT pray for this world - the world that God actually loves is the world to come. Otherwise, He wouldn't destroy this one. Why? because in the world to come, there is no sin. This world on the other hand is exclusively sin because its god is Satan.
Anyway, just so there won't be any misunderstanding, please see the following:
[Jhn 17:2-3 KJV]
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[Jhn 17:6 KJV]
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Nope, please see jhn 17: 2,3 & 6 above. He was teaching the apostles (and all of the Elect), a spiritual concept, but what He taught didn't apply exclusively to the apostles.
Well in order to come to a correct interpretation, and as the Bible directs us, we are to compare the spiritual with the spiritual and that no verse of prophesy is of any private interpretation. This means that to come to a proper understanding, we MUST NOT take any one verse as being complete in itself- it must be compared to all other like verses and able to stand the scrutiny of the enter Bible. All verses must harmonize:
[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
No, not this world
In the Bible, there are two "worlds" in view: this current world, and the world to come. It is the one to come that God loves, not this current world, or, He would be planning to destroy it.
[Heb 6:5 KJV] 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
if your statement is true, then no one ever born will face God's judgment because everyone's sins have been remitted.
Condemn, and not only to condemn it, but also to destroy it, but save the world to come.
However "save" isn't a precise enough word to use in conjunction with the world to come. If Christ had not been successful (which would actually be impossible), then there could be no next world to come. He was, so there is.
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Again here is the context —
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:1-12
The entire context from verse 1 through verse 12 which includes the phrase...”I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.”
is contextually referring to His twelve disciples and not all Christians.
- Them
- those whom you have given Me
- the men whom You have given Me out of the world.
- While I was with them in the world,
- Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
All the above words and phrases refer to His twelve disciples.
- I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
You have deceitfully taken the above verse out of it’s clear context and applied it to all Christians and have tried to convince the people in this thread that God doesn’t love the world, because you think the phrase
”those whom You have given Me” refers to all Christians.
It does not, it specifically refers to His twelve disciples.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
The reason you or anyone else became saved is because God first loved you when you were sinners.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
JLB
Quote the verse and context to which you are referring.
It is the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It is the one doctrine of Calvinism that I disagree with.
Are there an 'elect' of God? Yes.
Is salvation God's decision? Yes.
But, that doesn't mean the Atonement had to be limited to the elect. Just because the elect are those who benefit from it, doesn't demand that it is sufficient only for their sins.
Quantrill
What are the objectives and effects of the death of Christ ?
Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church.
Eph 5:25-26
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,
Jesus pointed that out in His Prayer Jn 17:19
19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Another accomplishment of the Death of Christ, it ensured the Spiritual cleansing and sanctification of all those He died for. The church.
Eph 5:25-26
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,
Jesus pointed that out in His Prayer Jn 17:19
19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Did you read the op ? Lets discuss those points. Or post #6 or # 13 ?
Not just the apostles:
[Jhn 17:20-21 KJV]
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Which world? Can't be this one as this world in-total will never "believe that thou has sent me" (Christ). But... those of the world to come in-total will so believe.
Anyways, as I said previously, the overriding point is that Jesus DIDN'T/WOULDN'T pray for this world, and so, John 3:16&17 couldn't be referring to this current world. Please observe:
[Jhn 18:36 KJV]
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
[Luk 22:30 KJV]
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The world that God shed His love upon, and will continue to shed His love upon-- the one to be saved, is the world to come
Those Christ died for are the Elect. They, and they alone, are those who have been given "peace with God"
[Rom 5:1-2 KJV]
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
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Good enough? If not, let me know, I think there may be more like those
[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Christ Jesus was sent to die for the sins of the world, because God so loved the world.
- God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17
- God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,
If you deny this, you are denying the truth.
JLB
Obviously this is not context.
What is the point you are attempting to make with these verses?
JLB
I don't in any way deny that. Where I disagree with you is which world the Bible has in view. The Bible identifies two: this current world, and the world to come. Jesus, in no uncertain terms, tells us that His kingdom is NOT of this world, period. Further, Christ would not pray for this current world, so, the world in John 3:16&17 that God said He "loved", cannot be this world and must therefore be the one to come. This world and creation as we now know it, is to be destroyed by God.
Me: "Okay, but how can a spiritual mind that has been blinded in-total able to understand or believe the Gospel? Something else outside of it must first happen to it."
You "Quote the verse and context to which you are referring."
Me:
[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Quote
[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
More context preceding the above verses - if that's what you were asking for
[Jhn 12:36-39 KJV]
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
[2Co 4:2-3 KJV]
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
Did I misunderstand your point?
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The world of lost souls that are under the domain of the devil.
It’s called grace. The Spirit of grace works with them.
- you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23
Obeyng the Gospel is how we are saved; born again, regenerated.
JLB
If you have to do something in order to have it, then it ain't grace. Grace is given first without any effort or preconditions on our part, the attributes of salvation then flow from it to us. One of those is the receiving of a renewed mind by the Holy Spirit:
[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.