Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

[Deborah13]

Prolly not, because that would mean Jesus had a sin nature.

It has to be more than just desire....or else we have to conclude that Jesus had a sin nature.

How so? When did Jesus desire, in His heart, for anything other than the will of God?

It's impossible that just having sinful desire defines having a sin nature, for Jesus had sinful desire (temptations) but they did not constitute a sin nature in him because his desires did not control him so as to make him sinful by nature.

But what he did have was the temptation--the desire--to sin

Ok. You see temptations as being the desire of the heart. Jesus was tempted by satan but the desire of Jesus' heart was for God and His answer to temptations, God's Word.
I don't see temptations as being the desire of the heart. One can be tempted and not allow the temptation to govern their thoughts and deeds. So because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we desire not to given in to temptations and to think and do those things that glorify God. That doesn't mean we always succeed, old habits especially can be hard to overcome even when we really don't desire in our hearts to do them. I believe that is why we have a guilty conscious when we disobey God because in our hearts we grieve.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hope you didn't get the impression that I blamed Eve for the fall. I believe that God held both responsible. Eve may have been deceived but I do not believe she is held guiltless. If she was, she wouldn't have suffered the curse from her disobedience.

Hi WIP
Eve was certainly not guiltless, but Adam is blamed for the fall of man.
God spoke to Adam. Eve may have been deceived by satan because she didn't have all the facts, but Adam did. So even though she could be deceived, Adam knew what hew as doing when he ate the forbidden fruit.
But, yes, they both sinned and both were punished.

I agree with Deborah 13 who posted above. Adam was the husband, Eve was his responsibility. He should have protected her better. There's a general consensus that Adam is to take the responsibility. God spoke to Adam first in the garden after they hid.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
Romans 5:12-14
Romans 5:17 For the transgression of one, sin reigned.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

It has to be more than just desire....or else we have to conclude that Jesus had a sin nature.

It's not just desire JB. It's the nature of sin, as you call it. It's this nature that makes us have the desire to tend toward evil. Romans 5:12 Death spread to ALL men.
Why would we have to conclude that Jesus had a sin nature? Jesus was God. Jesus had no sin in Him. Can God have sin? No. Can there not be an exception in His case?? God can do what God wills. A sinful "man" could not have saved us. It required a sinless "man". One without blemish, like the lamb in Exodus 11/12 - The Passover Lamb. Also, Hebrews 9:14 - Jesus is without blemish just as the lamb had to be.

You only have a sin nature if you have a nature of sin. So it has to be that being controlled by sin is what then defines one as having a nature of sin. It's impossible that just having sinful desire defines having a sin nature, for Jesus had sinful desire (temptations) but they did not constitute a sin nature in him because his desires did not control him so as to make him sinful by nature.

Ditto as above. Jesus did not have the sin nature. Our sin nature certainly CONTROLS us as you say above. When we come to know Christ, we still have this sin nature, we still will sin, but the DESIRE to sin will be much lessened and diminished because the Holy Spirit dwelling in us keeps our sin nature under control. Paul explains this problem in Romans 7:19 He does what he does not wish to do and V V. Ephesians 2:3 says that we are, by nature, children of wrath. It goes on to say in Ephesians 2:15 that Jesus abolishes the enmity which is the Law of commandments - once again it's stated that it's the Law that dies.

He, like us, had the Holy Spirit, therefore, his fleshly desires were not in control of him so as to constitute a sin nature in him. Because of the Holy Spirit a person can not be sinful by nature. Paul said the person who has the Spirit is "not in the flesh" (Romans 8:9 NASB). That doesn't mean we don't sin. It means we are no longer sinners by nature. We are new creations. We now have the nature of Christ. We have the mind of Christ--a mind set on the things of the Spirit, just as we used to have the mind of the flesh and had a mind set on the things of the flesh and so were by nature sinful. Now we are by nature righteous.

I agree with all of the above. But it's not by our nature that we're righteous. Jesus has made us righteous.
Through His sacrifice and our acceptance of the New Covenant, we are a new creation - the sin nature in our DNA no longer has any hold over us. Jesus has won death and sin.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

The natural man, the flesh and the deceiver can not submit to the terms and conditions of Law.

The Law does cause many odd things to come into the minds/hearts.

The natural man, the flesh man, can NOT arrive at the truthful conclusion of the LAW, that being that where the Word is sown (yes The Law), Satan enters the heart. Mark 4:15.

The natural flesh man will deny this happens, and does so precisely because it does happen, and the natural man is blinded to this fact by Satan.

Smaller,
You've misunderstood a post JB was making to me.
He's NOT saying Jesus had the sin nature.
THE OPPOSITE!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have the Spirit of God in me. Paul says that means I'm NOT in the flesh (Romans 8:9 NASB). That doesn't mean I don't sin. It means I'm not in the flesh that that should be my nature. Dogs bark because that's what they are by nature. I can bark too, but that hardly makes me a dog by nature. So it is with sin. The person who has the Spirit, yet sins, does not make it so he has the sin nature. No more than me barking like a dog somehow means I HAVE to have the nature of a dog because I barked like a dog.

You're writing to smaller here but I have a question.
James 4:1 is speaking to Christians. It says that quarrels come from the heart. And that the spirit He causes to live in us envies intensely. verse 7 says to submit ourselves to God.

So it's clear from different passages, not just this one, that christians sin. If you could explain to me what it is that makes us sin, even after we're Christian, if we no longer have the sin nature, I'd be willing to concede on the language you use. Although I do say that it's very confusing to say that something has died but we are capable of sinning anyway even if that something has died (the sin nature). You see, it's really confusing.

Re the dog barking. You could bark all you want to and you'll never be a dog. Right. But the dog, who has the nature of a dog, will continue, always, to bark. Even if he stopped barking, he'd still be a dog, but he cannot stop barking.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
You've misunderstood a post JB was making to me.
He's NOT saying Jesus had the sin nature.
THE OPPOSITE!

Wondering

I was addressing Jethro, not JLB.

Paul is abundantly clear that sin indwells the flesh. This is not a "sometimes" event, but perpetual. The Law exposes the reality of this matter. Best chapter is Romans 7 where Paul applies this "personally" showing that the Law caused "illegal/sin" thoughts to transpire in his mind (Romans 7:7-13), that that indwelling sin was NOT HIM (Romans 7:17-20) but nevertheless it proved that evil was present with him, again, perpetually. Romans 7:21.

Paul served the Law in his mind, but he also understood that his flesh served the LAW OF SIN, prompted by that same LAW. Romans 7:25.

And, beyond this, Paul has much more interesting things to say about it. But for those who haven't come to the "reality conclusions" on their own factual state of sin perpetually indwelling their own hide they simply won't get it. They can't even come to the same conclusions Paul did for himself, so that is the end of their journey. Sin indwelling stopped them from seeing and causes "believers" to be dishonest.

The last place any believer will go is conceding their sin is in fact of the devil. 1 John 3:8. That one gets every believer. The pride of Satan in the flesh can not accept that reality either. It's impossible for the devil who has his hold in the flesh to be honest. He is a liar and will remain so to his end. John 8:44

BUT, there is another working. By exposure that working INCREASES. And that is the direction that God Desires in order to complete His Wrath upon the workers of iniquity, the devil and his messengers. I hope to be IN LINE for the separation, early. Matt. 25.

 

[reba]

Reba is watching play nice

never mind i did not read to the end

 

[GodsGrace]

I was addressing Jethro, not JLB.

Paul is abundantly clear that sin indwells the flesh. This is not a "sometimes" event, but perpetual. The Law exposes the reality of this matter. Best chapter is Romans 7 where Paul applies this "personally" showing that the Law caused "illegal/sin" thoughts to transpire in his mind (Romans 7:7-13), that that indwelling sin was NOT HIM (Romans 7:17-20) but nevertheless it proved that evil was present with him, again, perpetually. Romans 7:21.

Paul served the Law in his mind, but he also understood that his flesh served the LAW OF SIN, prompted by that same LAW. Romans 7:25.

And, beyond this, Paul has much more interesting things to say about it. But for those who haven't come to the "reality conclusions" on their own factual state of sin perpetually indwelling their own hide they simply won't get it. They can't even come to the same conclusions Paul did for himself, so that is the end of their journey. Sin indwelling stopped them from seeing and causes "believers" to be dishonest.

The last place any believer will go is conceding their sin is in fact of the devil. 1 John 3:8. That one gets every believer. The pride of Satan in the flesh can not accept that reality either. It's impossible for the devil who has his hold in the flesh to be honest. He is a liar and will remain so to his end. John 8:44

BUT, there is another working. By exposure that working INCREASES. And that is the direction that God Desires in order to complete His Wrath upon the workers of iniquity, the devil and his messengers. I hope to be IN LINE for the separation, early. Matt. 25.

Smaller,

Yeah. I know who you were addressing... I said JB, Jethro Bodine (not JLB). Jethro was not saying that Jesus has the sin nature!

I agree with what you say above. There are those verses that say the flesh has been put to death and we are a new creation in Christ, etc. This is why it's important not to take verses out at random. The bible is a complete and harmonious book - all parts must reconcile with each other. It stands to reason that if the sin nature is dead, what makes us sin?

There was a talk once, maybe a year ago, where we spoke of what causes sin. The idea was that it could be caused by different things. Maybe you're tired and your temper gets the better of you, maybe you envy your neighbor's new car because it's the exact model you would like, maybe it's easier to just lie to a friend than explaining the truth, etc. He said that rarely is it satan, directly. I said that if we go back enough, it's ALWAYS satan. What makes us tired? What causes us to envy? Why tell a lie? So, yes, if you go back and back and back - there's satan.

However, I must say, that no one here is saying they don't sin. That doesn't seem to be the issue. Which is my whole point. If we sin, where does the sin come from? The sin nature. And where does the sin nature come from? Satan. And where does satan come from? Ooops. I stop there!

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

Yeah. I know who you were addressing... I said JB, Jethro Bodine (not JLB).

My bad. I'm posting from away from home this last week.

Jethro was not saying that Jesus has the sin nature!
He said that rarely is it satan, directly. I said that if we go back enough, it's ALWAYS satan. What makes us tired? What causes us to envy? Why tell a lie? So, yes, if you go back and back and back - there's satan.

And that is absolutely correct.

However, I must say, that no one here is saying they don't sin.

There are an abundance of different sights on this matter. Some, I'd say the majority, believe they only "sin" when they actually commit an external act of sin. As JB said, "I still sin." The reality is we never cease being sinners regardless of whether it shows up on the outside or not. I dealt with this issue very early in my attempts to not sin in "thought" and found it was virtually impossible. That began a very long examination of the issues of law and grace from the scriptures. Why the law? What was/is it's purpose? I could not remedy God being gracious to any sin or evil, as this basically lets evil off the hook. We are not free to do evil, yet evil is present with us, regardless. So the "doing" is rather irrelevant to the fact of it's perpetual presence. Evil present with us is always doing it's doing whether we perceive it or not.

That doesn't seem to be the issue. Which is my whole point. If we sin, where does the sin come from? The sin nature. And where does the sin nature come from? Satan. And where does satan come from? Ooops. I stop there

Wondering

Yeah, well, there is no doubt in my mind that God created Satan to do what Satan does. In the light of this fact I submit to His Divine Superiority in doing so and the reasons behind it. The reality is that we have been planted into this situation, purposefully, by Divine Intent. If I want to reason with God, through His Word, I have to understand that there is a blocker that has been put in place upon my mind and heart, in my own flesh. I have reasoned with God for many long times over these matters. And when I engage with any person I do not see "just them" any longer. It has changed my sights of the world dramatically.

 

[GodsGrace]

My bad. I'm posting from away from home this last week.

And that is absolutely correct.

There are an abundance of different sights on this matter. Some, I'd say the majority, believe they only "sin" when they actually commit an external act of sin. As JB said, "I still sin." The reality is we never cease being sinners regardless of whether it shows up on the outside or not. I dealt with this issue very early in my attempts to not sin in "thought" and found it was virtually impossible. That began a very long examination of the issues of law and grace from the scriptures. Why the law? What was/is it's purpose? I could not remedy God being gracious to any sin or evil, as this basically lets evil off the hook. We are not free to do evil, yet evil is present with us, regardless. So the "doing" is rather irrelevant to the fact of it's perpetual presence. Evil present with us is always doing it's doing whether we perceive it or not.

Yeah, well, there is no doubt in my mind that God created Satan to do what Satan does. In the light of this fact I submit to His Divine Superiority in doing so and the reasons behind it. The reality is that we have been planted into this situation, purposefully, by Divine Intent. If I want to reason with God, through His Word, I have to understand that there is a blocker that has been put in place upon my mind and heart, in my own flesh. I have reasoned with God for many long times over these matters. And when I engage with any person I do not see "just them" any longer. It has changed my sights of the world dramatically.

Yes Smaller. I see where you're coming from. I agree totally. Even with your last two sentences.
I don't know about being put here purposefully with Divine intent together with the evil one. Can something not good come from God? Which is why at stop at "where does satan come from." He does ALLOW evil though. OTOH, your understanding of this could work in explaining evil, but it breaks one of the three omni's, doesn't it? God is omnipotent. No power to do away with the evil? Why would He want it? Plus, He has to be all good, no? Yes. This is mysterious to me and I have no answer and have been looking for MANY years. So I just accept. But I do agree with the difference you explain. sin vs sins.

Jesus said even though in your thought you lust, or in your hate you kill ... Mathew 5:21-22 and Mathew 5:27
(or VV). So yes, wretched man that I am, what will save me from this body of death? Romans 7:24

And this is why we need Jesus. So God will see Him and not us.
But some might take this idea to mean that Jesus did not win satan and sin. It's all words after all. Humans trying to explain and understand spirit.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Control has nothing to do with being sinners.

Right. It has to do with whether or not you still are 'in the flesh' having the nature of sin. If you are still in the flesh you are being controlled by the sin nature. That's what it means to have the nature of something. You're programmed by nature to be something, regardless of how you may act to the contrary.

Maybe people aren't getting what it means to be something 'by nature'. I can bark like a dog all I want, but that does not make me a dog 'by nature'. Because of the Holy Spirit we are no longer sinners 'by nature'. Our minds want something different now. Paul says our nature is to long for righteousness. It is not in the nature of a sinner (that is, one who is still in their sin nature) to long for righteousness. When the Christian sins he is acting contrary to his new nature. He is not acting out of his old nature. He doesn't have that anymore because of the transforming of the Holy Spirit into a new creation--a creation that longs for righteousness. If he still had an old nature his desire would be for unrighteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The reality is we never cease being sinners regardless of whether it shows up on the outside or not. I dealt with this issue very early in my attempts to not sin in "thought" and found it was virtually impossible. That began a very long examination of the issues of law and grace from the scriptures.

Are you suggesting that you have made zero progress toward not sinning in thought or deed?

Zero progress signifies that a change of nature has not occurred. It does not signify that the two natures are somehow co-existing with each other and the old one is ruling. That's saying we have both a mind set on the desires of the flesh, and a mind set on the desires of the Spirit. But Paul makes it clear that the believer has the mind set on the Spirit. That is our new nature. Our old nature was a mind set on the flesh.

He says we are NOT in the flesh anymore by virtue of having the Spirit within us. He did not say we are not in the flesh when we obey the Spirit. He said we have the mind of the Spirit by having the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Right. It has to do with whether or not you still are 'in the flesh' having the nature of sin. If you are still in the flesh you are being controlled by the sin nature. That's what it means to have the nature of something. You're programmed by nature to be something, regardless of how you may act to the contrary.

Maybe people aren't getting what it means to be something 'by nature'. I can bark like a dog all I want, but that does not make me a dog 'by nature'. Because of the Holy Spirit we are no longer sinners 'by nature'. Our minds want something different now. Paul says our nature is to long for righteousness. It is not in the nature of a sinner (that is, one who is still in their sin nature) to long for righteousness. When the Christian sins he is acting contrary to his new nature. He is not acting out of his old nature. He doesn't have that anymore because of the transforming of the Holy Spirit into a new creation--a creation that longs for righteousness. If he still had an old nature his desire would be for unrighteousness.

So does this mean, you believe the "sin nature" is dead, and can no longer produce "sinful desires".

or

Does this mean the "sin nature" is still able to produce "sinful desires" that want to be gratified?


I think what some of us are seeing in your post's, is that you seem to be "redefining" what it means to be dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

A dead body no longer functions, and can not produce anything.

so, if the sin nature still produces "sinful desires" that long to be gratified, then the sin nature is not dead, in the biblical sense.

The body is dead because of sin, means the body will die, just as God told Adam and Eve.

...for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Genesis 2:17

Adam and Eve's body did die, but not in the instant they ate.

Likewise our body is in the process of death, [dying], because of sin, and will continue to produce sinful desires until it is dead.

Only when we receive new bodies at the resurrection, will we be free from a "sin nature".

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:23-25

The law of sin [sin nature] in my flesh is not dead, and still produces sinful desires.


The Lord, the Husband of Israel, who gave them the law of Moses, became flesh and died, and with Him, the law.

The law was nailed to the cross with Jesus, the Lord of Israel.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

The law of Moses is what was against the children of Israel.

This is the same language used in the law.

24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:25-26

The law of Moses was handwritten by Moses in a book and placed beside the Ark as a witness against the children of Israel.

It was this law of Moses, handwritten by him, which was against them.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So does this mean, you believe the "sin nature" is dead, and can no longer produce "sinful desires".

or

Does this mean the "sin nature" is still able to produce "sinful desires" that want to be gratified?

It means I believe the sin nature is dead and any sin we commit simply does not come from a mind set on the flesh, as it did before we received a mind set on the Spirit. Any sinful desire that rises up in us comes from the flesh itself, not from a sin nature--a mind set on and always thinking about how to gratify the flesh.

Before Christ we sinned because by nature that's what we always thought about and craved in our inner being, like a dog that barks and chases bunny rabbits because that's what his mind is constantly tuned to. But in Christ we don't have that nature of always thinking about satisfying sinful desires at work in us anymore. It is quite literally GONE. We now think from our new nature which is to satisfy the desires of the Spirit. We spend the rest of our lives learning how to do that and stop listening to the ghosts of our former nature that speak to us from our flesh bodies.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think what some of us are seeing in your post's, is that you seem to be "redefining" what it means to be dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

A dead body no longer functions, and can not produce anything.

At first I thought I was redefining it too. But you see it isn't the flesh that Paul is saying is dead, it is the mind set on the desires of the flesh that is dead. See the difference? As unbelievers still possessing the nature of a sinner we sinned from that mindset. As believers we no longer have the mind that drives sinful desires. It's not in control anymore. And not just not in control anymore, it doesn't exist anymore. Paul said we have a different mind now--a mind set on the things of the Spirit. So when we sin we are following the desires of the flesh, not following a mindset of the flesh. We don't have that anymore. Paul said so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Likewise our body is in the process of death, [dying], because of sin, and will continue to produce sinful desires until it is dead.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. Sin in the Christian comes from the flesh, not from the very nature of fallen man we used to have--a mind wired and programmed and turned over to satisfying the desires of the flesh. We don't have that anymore.

What remains is the flesh which the old nature--the mind set on that flesh--forced us to satisfy. The law actually enforcing our submission to that old mind set, like a legal marriage certificate that enforces a husband's rule over his wife. But in Christ that old mindset dies, and since he has died we are released from the power of the law to 'legally' arouse and enforce our marital 'as one' relationship with that old nature 'mind set on the flesh'.

 

[Deborah13]

Paul explains this problem in Romans 7:19 He does what he does not wish to do

This is what I was referring to. When we do sin we are doing what that new creature really does Not want to do. This is what I meant by the desire of the heart has changed, we no longer desire, in our hearts/spirit, to sin.

 

[JLB]

It means I believe the sin nature is dead and any sin we commit simply does not come from a mind set on the flesh, as it did before we received a mind set on the Spirit. Any sinful desire that rises up in us comes from the flesh itself, not from a sin nature--a mind set on and always thinking about how to gratify the flesh.

as it did before we received a mind set on the Spirit.

We received the Holy Spirit, but I don't find where we "received" "a mind set on the Spirit".

We ourselves have to "set our minds" on the things of the Spirit, rather than "setting our minds" on the things of the flesh.

We are debtors to the Spirit.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


It seems to me, that if we have the responsibility of putting to death, the deeds of the sin nature, within our flesh, then it is still producing these desires, ie; meaning it is not dead.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is what I was referring to. When we do sin we are doing what that new creature really does Not want to do. This is what I meant by the desire of the heart has changed, we no longer desire, in our hearts/spirit, to sin.

Yes, your fundamental nature has changed, not the fact that our flesh still wants things that hurt us, God, and other people. Jesus did not have an old nature to be tempted by. He had human flesh to be tempted by. And so it is with us now that we are in Christ. We don't sin from an old nature that we don't have anymore--a mind set on the desires of the flesh. We sin from the pesky biological and emotional needs of these bodies we are still locked in.

 

[JLB]

What remains is the flesh which the old nature--the mind set on that flesh--

Brother, as Christians, we have to "set our mind", on the things of the Spirit. It doesn't happen automatically.

When we are born again, Our spirit has been made alive, and now has the Spirit of Christ within.

We now have to renew our minds, the same mind we have always had. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

Paul tells us not to be conformed to the world, since we have the same mind, we have the responsibility of renewing our minds, which comes from setting our minds on the things of the Spirit, which is to say, setting our minds upon Christ, and beholding His Glory.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18


JLB