Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

[GodsGrace]

Paul says she was deceived.
1Ti 2:13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve,
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,

imo,
Adam was not tempted by satan, Eve was. Eve had second hand knowledge of what God had told Adam and she even misquotes it 'nor touch'. Because she didn't believe her husband and did believe satan she was relegated to being under her husband's authority. They were one flesh and she did not consult the other half in this relationship, Adam, before accepting what satan had told her. Adam could have straightened the whole thing out if she had just asked him instead of going off on her own.

Great explanation! Especially about Adam and Eve being one flesh.
It was Adam's responsibility though, as you said, because God spoke to Adam and not to Eve.
Your points are often missed and are important.
Eve has been blamed for the fall, but the responsibility falls on Adam.

Satan deceived the woman.
The woman convinced the man. The fruit was pleasing to the eye... Genesis 3:6
Then the blame game. God wants to know what happened:
Genesis 3:12 Adam: The woman gave me to eat...
Genesis 3:13 Eve: The serpent deceived me and I ate...

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Genesis 3:12 Adam: The woman gave me to eat...

Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” Genesis 3:12

Adam went ahead and blamed both the Lord and Eve.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

I had posted this in another thread a year ago, but thought it pertinent to the current discussion.



With that thought in mind, I would like to change the focus of the thread a little bit, but still within the confines of this discussion concerning the resurrection of Christ. I would like to circle back and touch on something that I touched on briefly within the OP, and that is SIN.

What is SIN?

The sin that I am speaking of is not the sin of adultery or fornication, of homosexuality or divorce. It is not the sin of theft or murder, or of rape and violence. It is not the sin of watching something on TV, or sitting in a bar smoking a cigarette. Those sins blind us to the Sin that I am asking about. So What Is Sin?

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

What was the similitude of Adams transgression? What did Adam do?

Adam walked in the Garden of Eden and God walked with him in the cool of the day. But Eve being deceived by the serpent took the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then did she give it unto her Husband. And though Adam knew better than to eat, he partook of the fruit of knowledge even though he knew it was forbidden to him, so that he could take the blame upon himself and protect his wife. But when they did eat of the fruit of knowledge, their EYES WERE OPENED and the saw that they were naked, and in their shame the hid from the presence of the Lord. His sin was not the act of disobedience, the sin was that he did not ask forgiveness of the Lord, and tried to hide from his presence.

What is Sin?

John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me:for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

We are all dead in our trespasses, but we remain dead in them when we Sin against the Lord by not believing in Him, after the similitude of Adam's transgressions, but we remain blinded to the one Sin that separates us from God by the petty sins and transgression that occupy our flesh.

What was the Sin committed by the children of Israel as they were brought out of the land of Egypt. Now keep in mind. They had just witnessed the power of God in the judgement against Egypt and the plagues thereof. They were delivered as the sea was parted before them. The were lead by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. They were fed manna from heaven. And though they had stood a witness to all of those things that happened before them, that when the glory of God descended upon the mountain in a cloud of fire, when he would have written his laws into their hearts and minds at that time, but they feared exceeding great for their lives, that they turned form the Presence of the Lord and said give unto Moses that which we should do, and we shall do it, saying, "Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not."

So in that day did Israel Sin against the Lord, in rejecting his presence before them. Choosing Moses, a man after the flesh to teach them all things in the law, so that they might live righteously before the Lord. They chose Moses and their Covenant of the LAW, and hid themselves from the presence of the Lord. And by the Law, their tree of the knowledge of good and evil given unto them, their eyes were opened to the knowledge of their sin and death, suffering the transgression of Adam.

The Law of Moses and the written letter of God that we call the Bible Opens our Eyes to the knowledge of sin and death, and the knowledge of those sins and transgression in our flesh blinds us to the One Sin that matters, and that is the knowledge of Christ within you. For unto this day when Moses is read, the Vail is still upon their hearts, but when it shall turn to Christ, the same Vail shall be taken away.

The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life, and to that life everlasting. The knowledge of the Law has opened my eyes to sin and death, and everywhere I look in this world, that is all that I see. But the JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

I no longer follow after the law or the works thereof. I have taken hold of the Faith that the Lord has given unto me. I have come to the knowledge of his Grace, and the eyes that once were open, he has closed that I should no longer look upon it. He has closed mine eyes to death, that I may Glory in his Life. By FAITH I walk in the Lord, yet not by my own sight, but I trust in that which Christ hath seen, and that he shall show it unto me, if it be his will. And so I walk not according to my own sight, or by the letter of the word, but by the sight of Him who dwells in me. The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Turn from your sins, that you might look upon your SIN.

The Children of God turned from the presence of God and rejected the knowledge within them because they had stood witness to the power of wrath of God, so that is understandable. But to reject His Word that was witnessed by many, and confirmed by the law and the prophets in the Power of His Grace in establishing the Covenant of his peace, I guess that is what Christ referred to as unforgivable.

If you do not come the knowledge of Christ who dwells within you, then you shall stand upon your own before the Glory of the Father like the children of Israel before in the presence of the lake of fire. And if you have not come to the knowledge of Christ within you, then you are not known of Christ, and will stand in the presence of the Lord God Almighty on that Day without the full assurance of the Salvation given unto us through the Death and Resurrection of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” Genesis 3:12

Adam went ahead and blamed both the Lord and Eve.


JLB

Does nothing escape you?

Very good!


And do WE not blame God many times before we come to accept His providence...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I had posted this in another thread a year ago, but thought it pertinent to the current discussion.

With that thought in mind, I would like to change the focus of the thread a little bit, but still within the confines of this discussion concerning the resurrection of Christ. I would like to circle back and touch on something that I touched on briefly within the OP, and that is SIN.

What is SIN?

The sin that I am speaking of is not the sin of adultery or fornication, of homosexuality or divorce. It is not the sin of theft or murder, or of rape and violence. It is not the sin of watching something on TV, or sitting in a bar smoking a cigarette. Those sins blind us to the Sin that I am asking about. So What Is Sin?

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

What was the similitude of Adams transgression? What did Adam do?

Adam walked in the Garden of Eden and God walked with him in the cool of the day. But Eve being deceived by the serpent took the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then did she give it unto her Husband. And though Adam knew better than to eat, he partook of the fruit of knowledge even though he knew it was forbidden to him, so that he could take the blame upon himself and protect his wife. But when they did eat of the fruit of knowledge, their EYES WERE OPENED and the saw that they were naked, and in their shame the hid from the presence of the Lord. His sin was not the act of disobedience, the sin was that he did not ask forgiveness of the Lord, and tried to hide from his presence.

What is Sin?

John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away:for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me:for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

We are all dead in our trespasses, but we remain dead in them when we Sin against the Lord by not believing in Him, after the similitude of Adam's transgressions, but we remain blinded to the one Sin that separates us from God by the petty sins and transgression that occupy our flesh.

What was the Sin committed by the children of Israel as they were brought out of the land of Egypt. Now keep in mind. They had just witnessed the power of God in the judgement against Egypt and the plagues thereof. They were delivered as the sea was parted before them. The were lead by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. They were fed manna from heaven. And though they had stood a witness to all of those things that happened before them, that when the glory of God descended upon the mountain in a cloud of fire, when he would have written his laws into their hearts and minds at that time, but they feared exceeding great for their lives, that they turned form the Presence of the Lord and said give unto Moses that which we should do, and we shall do it, saying, "Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not."

So in that day did Israel Sin against the Lord, in rejecting his presence before them. Choosing Moses, a man after the flesh to teach them all things in the law, so that they might live righteously before the Lord. They chose Moses and their Covenant of the LAW, and hid themselves from the presence of the Lord. And by the Law, their tree of the knowledge of good and evil given unto them, their eyes were opened to the knowledge of their sin and death, suffering the transgression of Adam.

The Law of Moses and the written letter of God that we call the Bible Opens our Eyes to the knowledge of sin and death, and the knowledge of those sins and transgression in our flesh blinds us to the One Sin that matters, and that is the knowledge of Christ within you. For unto this day when Moses is read, the Vail is still upon their hearts, but when it shall turn to Christ, the same Vail shall be taken away.

The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life, and to that life everlasting. The knowledge of the Law has opened my eyes to sin and death, and everywhere I look in this world, that is all that I see. But the JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

I no longer follow after the law or the works thereof. I have taken hold of the Faith that the Lord has given unto me. I have come to the knowledge of his Grace, and the eyes that once were open, he has closed that I should no longer look upon it. He has closed mine eyes to death, that I may Glory in his Life. By FAITH I walk in the Lord, yet not by my own sight, but I trust in that which Christ hath seen, and that he shall show it unto me, if it be his will. And so I walk not according to my own sight, or by the letter of the word, but by the sight of Him who dwells in me. The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Turn from your sins, that you might look upon your SIN.

The Children of God turned from the presence of God and rejected the knowledge within them because they had stood witness to the power of wrath of God, so that is understandable. But to reject His Word that was witnessed by many, and confirmed by the law and the prophets in the Power of His Grace in establishing the Covenant of his peace, I guess that is what Christ referred to as unforgivable.

If you do not come the knowledge of Christ who dwells within you, then you shall stand upon your own before the Glory of the Father like the children of Israel before in the presence of the lake of fire. And if you have not come to the knowledge of Christ within you, then you are not known of Christ, and will stand in the presence of the Lord God Almighty on that Day without the full assurance of the Salvation given unto us through the Death and Resurrection of Christ.

Wow.
What more could be said!
I'm so happy I joined this forum...Just to be able to read such beautiful material.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then could we say that the sin nature is simply man's desire to satisfy his own fleshy will rather than the desire to obey God's will.

Prolly not, because that would mean Jesus had a sin nature.

But one thing is clear, if you have the Holy Spirit the sin nature is not in charge anymore:

"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

Our ability to sin seems to not be the sin nature in a person until sin has control of that person. The nature of the person changes when sin is now in control of a person. I think Paul is saying that the sin nature comes to life (you get a sin nature) when we start obeying the sinful lusts of the flesh after we become accountable for our behavior. And then we die:

"9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died" (Romans 7:9 NASB)

So, Adam and Eve were 'alive apart from the Law' ('do not eat'), but when the commandment came ('do not eat') they ate and sin (the sin nature) became alive, being in control of them, and they died. And so it is with us. Sin does not change our nature until we obey it after we become accountable for ourselves. But when we believe in Christ, the sin nature is crucified with Christ and we get the nature of righteousness, the nature of Christ, and we live again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Adam was not tempted by satan, Eve was. Eve had second hand knowledge of what God had told Adam and she even misquotes it 'nor touch'. Because she didn't believe her husband and did believe satan she was relegated to being under her husband's authority. They were one flesh and she did not consult the other half in this relationship, Adam, before accepting what satan had told her. Adam could have straightened the whole thing out if she had just asked him instead of going off on her own.

Adam is a type of Christ. Eve is a type of Christ's bride, the church. Adam followed after his beloved bride in her sin just as Christ followed his beloved wife in her sin by willingly taking it on himself for her sake. See it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam is a type of Christ. Eve is a type of Christ's bride, the church. Adam followed after his beloved bride in her sin just as Christ followed his beloved wife in her sin by willingly taking it on himself for her sake. See it?

Hi JB
Very beautiful. As Deborah said, they were one in flesh and Adam followed in Eve's weakness. Concepts are many on the why. Maybe it's as simple as that they were this one flesh.

I have to agree with Deborah that the sin nature is our desire to satisfy our own will instead of doing God's will. The sin nature is the tendency we have within us that leans toward evil, bad, sin, whatever you want to call it (anything that takes us away from God).

If I understand you, you're saying that the sin nature becomes activated in us when we become aware of commandments and break them. Right? Well, then you'd have to explain WHY we break them. I believe we're born with the sin nature. It's in each of us from the beginning. This is the nature that was passed down to all mankind from the sin of Adam and Eve.

This could explain why you believe that once saved the sin nature dies. Because you believe we "acquire" it at some point, so you could also "lose" it - or it becomes expelled after you are saved. Instead if one understands the sin nature to be a part of your being when you're born into the world, then it's easy to understand that the sin nature cannot be "killed" but it becomes dominated and put under control.

There are churches that believe we are born good and then acquire the bad. So we're born unlost, become lost and then are saved. There are churches that teach that we are born bad and then become saved. Which do you adhere to? I put forth that Adam is the only person that was born good and then acquired the bad (sin nature). The rest of humanity is born with the sin nature or the bad, and must be saved. This, after all, is what is passed down to us from Adam.
Psalm 51:5 NAS "I was brought forth in iniquity"
Psalm 58:3-4 NAS
Genesis 8: 21 NAS
John 9:34 NAS
Ephesians 2:3b NAS


The following statement you make is what I believe:
But one thing is clear, if you have the Holy Spirit the sin nature is not in charge anymore:
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

You said above "the sin nature is not IN CHARGE anymore."
This is different than saying it is dead.

Romans 9 does speak to death. But which death? Romans 8:11 is speaking of being raised from the dead by the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead, and that He will give life to our mortal bodies. So it would seem to me that in the prior verses of Romans 8 Paul is addressing the fact that if we live by the flesh, we're adhering to the things of THIS world - many of which are sinful. But if we have the spirit of God, we'll be doing the works of God and the things of the spirit, accumulating for ourselves rewards in the afterlife.
Luke 12:33-34 Mathew 16:27
Romans 8:23b also speaks to the redemption of our physical bodies. Sin also makes our physical bodies die as the sin nature makes our spiritual self die until we have it under control by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The NIV says:
Romans 8:9 NIV "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature..." This helps me a lot in my understanding.

Romans 7:9 You say:
So, Adam and Eve were 'alive apart from the Law' ('do not eat'), but when the commandment came ('do not eat') they ate and sin (the sin nature) became alive, being in control of them, and they died. And so it is with us. Sin does not change our nature until we obey it after we become accountable for ourselves. But when we believe in Christ, the sin nature is crucified with Christ and we get the nature of righteousness, the nature of Christ, and we live again.

If sin does not change our nature until we obey it - then WHAT is it that makes us obey it?? We obey it because we have it. Paul is saying here that he wasn't AWARE that the Law condemned Him and that he stood guilty before God. Just because he wasn't aware of something, doesn't mean he didn't have it before. He had it (the sin nature) he just didn't know it.

Romans 7:2-3 speaks about being married and the husband dying. It's the law that dies in Romans 7:3b "if her husband dies, she is released from THAT LAW." The Law in her dies, as it does in all who believe in Christ. Grace replaces Law. The sin nature no longer controls us. The Holy Spirit does.
In Romans 7:4 Paul confirms the above by plainly stating "Brothers, you also died to the law." It can't be clearer than that. The Law dies, not the sin nature. We were born with the sin nature, it's a part of our DNA compliments of Adam, we're born with it and the "new man" in us puts it under submission.

Jesus said He won death. How could that be if we still die?
He won our FEAR of death. Death no longer has us living in fear. We know where we're going. Death, where is they sting? 1 Corinthians 15:55

He won sin. How could that be if we still sin?
He won the control of sin over our lives. He won the fear we have when we sin because we know He covers for us. Colossians 3:8 says to put sin aside. If we didn't have the sin nature anymore, there would be no need to say to put sin aside. Also James 4:7

I don't usually post back and forth. I think this is important because if we say that the sin nature has died, it causes much confusion when we sin. And we will sin. So if our sin nature has died (as you say) then what is it that makes us sin? And why do we still sin? Are we not saved? You see, it bring up problems for the believer.

Wondering

 

[WIP]

Great explanation! Especially about Adam and Eve being one flesh.
It was Adam's responsibility though, as you said, because God spoke to Adam and not to Eve.
Your points are often missed and are important.
Eve has been blamed for the fall, but the responsibility falls on Adam.

Satan deceived the woman.
The woman convinced the man. The fruit was pleasing to the eye... Genesis 3:6
Then the blame game. God wants to know what happened:
Genesis 3:12 Adam: The woman gave me to eat...
Genesis 3:13 Eve: The serpent deceived me and I ate...

Wondering

I hope you didn't get the impression that I blamed Eve for the fall. I believe that God held both responsible. Eve may have been deceived but I do not believe she is held guiltless. If she was, she wouldn't have suffered the curse from her disobedience.

 

[smaller]

I doubt very much that God had any intentions of leaving Adam in a compilation of wet dust, eternally.

The first law, "do not eat" was the impetus of death to Adam's flesh body. Which was always the plan of God. The deceiver, also in the flesh, is the instrument of resistance and disobedience to God's Law.

1 Cor. 15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

There are always 3 parties involved in any dissections of scripture:

God
Man
Satan

If any of these are missing, the dissections will not add up.

A few in the thread have said Adam was not deceived. And they are right in that sight, taken from Paul in 1 Tim. 2:14. Such may consider that the natural man, Adam, is never deceived, but BLINDED. The natural/flesh man can neither submit to Gods Law, nor understand it.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eve was, essentially, the "inner man" of Adam, and it is the "inner man" who is deceived, in heart. Yet Adam was with her when she was deceived.

We may even consider that it was Adam who recounted the law to Eve, which Eve bungled to recount accurately, adding to it that they may not touch the infamous tree, which God did not say.

We may even consider that if Mark 4:15 is true and applied to Adam, that it was the deceiver in Adam's heart who blinded him, and that the deceiver who tempted Eve SPOKE from Adam's lips.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have to agree with Deborah that the sin nature is our desire to satisfy our own will instead of doing God's will.

It has to be more than just desire....or else we have to conclude that Jesus had a sin nature.

The sin nature is the tendency we have within us that leans toward evil, bad, sin, whatever you want to call it (anything that takes us away from God).

You only have a sin nature if you have a nature of sin. So it has to be that being controlled by sin is what then defines one as having a nature of sin. It's impossible that just having sinful desire defines having a sin nature, for Jesus had sinful desire (temptations) but they did not constitute a sin nature in him because his desires did not control him so as to make him sinful by nature.

He, like us, had the Holy Spirit, therefore, his fleshly desires were not in control of him so as to constitute a sin nature in him. Because of the Holy Spirit a person can not be sinful by nature. Paul said the person who has the Spirit is "not in the flesh" (Romans 8:9 NASB). That doesn't mean we don't sin. It means we are no longer sinners by nature. We are new creations. We now have the nature of Christ. We have the mind of Christ--a mind set on the things of the Spirit, just as we used to have the mind of the flesh and had a mind set on the things of the flesh and so were by nature sinful. Now we are by nature righteous.

 

[JLB]

I hope you didn't get the impression that I blamed Eve for the fall. I believe that God held both responsible. Eve may have been deceived but I do not believe she is held guiltless. If she was, she wouldn't have suffered the curse from her disobedience.

Amen.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus had sinful desire (temptations) but they did not constitute a sin nature in him because his desires did not control him so as to make him sinful by nature.

Uh, no. That ain't going to fly.

He, like us, had the Holy Spirit, therefore, his fleshly desires

Again, no.

Jesus was God Himself in the flesh. He had no sin in Him in any way, shape or form.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Uh, no. That ain't going to fly.


Again, no.

Jesus was God Himself in the flesh. He had no sin in Him in any way, shape or form.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Listen carefully....

The assertion was being made that just having sinful desire constituted having a sin nature. I said, if that's true then Jesus was sinful by nature. Which you obviously agree was not true about Jesus.

This being true, it can then be said that the believer's old sin nature really is dead, not just not in control of the person anymore. The control itself is what constitutes the sin nature, not just desiring sin, or, in our case even indulging that sin, because the Holy Spirit gives us a mind set on righteousness, not a mind set on unrighteousness as it was when we were sinful by nature without the Holy Spirit. He gives us the nature of righteousness and kills the nature of unrighteousness we had without the Holy Spirit.

 

[smaller]

Listen carefully....

The assertion was being made that just having sinful desire constituted having a sin nature.

And that is entirely true. Even the slightest thought of sin is both evil and defiling.

I said, if that's true then Jesus was sinful by nature.

And that is entirely NOT true, truthful or accurate and a false conclusion.

Which you obviously agree was not true about Jesus.

I disagree with the leap you are trying to make, i.e. sinful desires mean Jesus had them.

Jesus had no sin, period. Not in thought. Not in Word. Not in deed. Just so we're clear on that.

Jesus was also superabundantly clear that the mere thought of sin is evil and defiling.

I'm sure you know the multiple scriptural citings, but Matt. 5:28 is a sufficient citing.

This being true,

Your connection doesn't work and won't work. What you are attempting is making the claim that having sinful desires doesn't mean we are sinners. So that is false conclusion number one. Then to make the conclusion that because ALL of the balance of us DO have them, that means Jesus did too, doesn't mean we are sinners either is also not true. And to then go on to say that Jesus had sinful desires, but was not a sinner is false conclusion number 3. The whole string of logic is faulty from the outset.

it can then be said that the believer's old sin nature really is dead, not just not in control of the person anymore.

The flesh of all sinners die because of the factual state of indwelling sin. There is no way to avoid the conclusion of having sin indwelling the flesh, period. There was only ONE exception and that was Jesus. No one else will EVER be able to make that same claim.

The nature of a believer, because of the Holy Spirit, is a mind set of righteousness, not unrighteousness, as it was when he was sinful by nature without the Holy Spirit.

A lot of believers try to conjure themselves into not being sinners. It's not truthful and it's not going to happen.

The Law proves, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that we are sinners.

 

[smaller]

The natural man, the flesh and the deceiver can not submit to the terms and conditions of Law.

The Law does cause many odd things to come into the minds/hearts.

The natural man, the flesh man, can NOT arrive at the truthful conclusion of the LAW, that being that where the Word is sown (yes The Law), Satan enters the heart. Mark 4:15.

The natural flesh man will deny this happens, and does so precisely because it does happen, and the natural man is blinded to this fact by Satan.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A lot of believers try to conjure themselves into not being sinners. It's not truthful and it's not going to happen.

I have the Spirit of God in me. Paul says that means I'm NOT in the flesh (Romans 8:9 NASB). That doesn't mean I don't sin. It means I'm not in the flesh that that should be my nature. Dogs bark because that's what they are by nature. I can bark too, but that hardly makes me a dog by nature. So it is with sin. The person who has the Spirit, yet sins, does not make it so he has the sin nature. No more than me barking like a dog somehow means I HAVE to have the nature of a dog because I barked like a dog.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I disagree with the leap you are trying to make, i.e. sinful desires mean Jesus had them.

Jesus had no sin, period. Not in thought. Not in Word. Not in deed. Just so we're clear on that.

But what he did have was the temptation--the desire--to sin: For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15 NASB). This makes the assertion that just having sinful desires is equivalent to having a sin nature. No. The sin nature means sinning because that is your nature. IOW, that is what owns and controls you, the element of control being that which defines the sin nature, not just the behavior associated with that sin nature. Just as a dog barking means he has the nature of a dog, not simply because he barks (anyone can do that), but because it is in his very nature to bark like a dog. That nature owning and controlling him and making him what he is.

 

[smaller]

I have the Spirit of God in me.

That is not extended to the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17

Paul says that means I'm NOT in the flesh (Romans 8:9 NASB).

Uh, no it doesn't.

That doesn't mean I don't sin.

It means you have circular logic for sure. None of us are sinless at any time. It's not a question of "I sin when I sin." But of factually being a sinner.

It means I'm not in the flesh that that should be my nature.

No matter how we try to spin these matters being sinners is the only TRUTHFUL conclusion for believers in Truth. 1 John 1:8.

And if we are truthful to this extent, we'll also understand how 'our' sin reacts to the law: Adversely and contrarily, always.

 

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But what he did have was the temptation--the desire--to sin: For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15 NASB).

I think we've covered this already.

This makes the assertion that just having sinful desires is equivalent to having a sin nature. No.

It certainly does NOT mean Jesus had sinful desires if this is where you are going to head, again.

The sin nature means sinning because that is your nature. IOW, that is what owns and controls you, the element of control being that which defines the sin nature, not just the behavior associated with that sin nature.

Control has nothing to do with being sinners.

Nor does DOING a sin.

We are always sinners.