Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

[Deborah13]

Yes, your fundamental nature has changed, not the fact that our flesh still wants things that hurt us, God, and other people. Jesus did not have an old nature to be tempted by. He had human flesh to be tempted by. And so it is with us now that we are in Christ. We don't sin from an old nature that we don't have anymore--a mind set on the desires of the flesh. We sin from the pesky biological and emotional needs of these bodies we are still locked in.

We look forward to the day when we will receive a new body, one that has never been corrupted and will be incorruptible, one that is perfectly compatible with our new nature in Christ.

 

[JLB]

We look forward to the day when we will receive a new body, one that has never been corrupted and will be incorruptible, one that is perfectly compatible with our new nature in Christ.

Amen to that.

However, it will be the same body that died, but will be resurrected from the dead.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We received the Holy Spirit, but I don't find where we "received" "a mind set on the Spirit".

We ourselves have to "set our minds" on the things of the Spirit, rather than "setting our minds" on the things of the flesh.

You and I do indeed have this mind of Christ.

"But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16 NASB)

Paul says we are 'not in the flesh' by virtue of possessing the Spirit (not by virtue of obeying the Spirit):

"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9 NASB)

In context we see that he defines 'being in the flesh' as "5...those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh" (Romans 8:5 NASB). IOW, the person in the flesh is the person who still has a mind set on the flesh, as opposed to the Christian who has the Spirit and, therefore, has a mind set on the things of the Spirit. Obviously, it's possible to resist it, but that hardly means you do not have it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems to me, that if we have the responsibility of putting to death, the deeds of the sin nature, within our flesh, then it is still producing these desires, ie; meaning it is not dead.

What it means is you are acting and thinking contrary to the mind of Christ you received by virtue of having the Holy Spirit. The sin in your flesh is not coming from 'being in the flesh' because you are no longer in that, because you have the Spirit (Romans 8:9 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point of all this is, the law can't arouse sin in you anymore. It's power and authority to do so ended when 'sin nature' died. If you're still giving the law authority to do that you either do not have the Spirit and are still 'in the flesh' (Romans 8:9 NASB), or you're being deceived into thinking 'sin nature' still rules over you like a husband over a wife.

Through knowledge we learn to resist the lie of the enemy who tries to discourage us by telling us we're still married to an old mind set that we don't have anymore and which has died in Christ and been replaced with the new nature, our new Lord and husband, the mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

IOW, the person in the flesh is the person who still has a mind set on the flesh, as opposed to the Christian who has the Spirit and, therefore, has a mind set on the things of the Spirit. Obviously, it's possible to resist it, but that hardly means you do not have it.

A person who has the Spirit of Christ within them, can still set their mind on the things of the flesh

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

A person who is in Christ, can still walk according to the flesh, and can still practice the deeds of the flesh, because the sin within their flesh is still producing a desire to be gratified.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

and again

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

Christians who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh.

Christians who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Paul admonishes Christians with these words -

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


JLB

 

[JLB]

The point of all this is, the law can't arouse sin in you anymore. It's power and authority to do so ended when 'sin nature' died.

I have just shown you from the many scriptures, that the "sin nature" as you call it, [which is not found in the scriptures], is not dead.

Through knowledge we learn to resist the lie of the enemy who tries to discourage us by telling us we're still married to an old mind set that we don't have anymore and which has died in Christ and been replaced with the new nature, our new Lord and husband, the mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

We were never married to "ourselves".

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4

We are dead to the law.

This is what Paul plainly wrote.

Paul did not say our sin nature was dead.

No where in the scriptures is there any place that says the Jews [those who know the law] which is who Paul directed this to, were married to themselves, [sin nature]. There would have to be this somewhere in the old testament for those who know the law, to understand what he was saying.

What is found in the law, is the Lord was there Husband, and was the One to whom they were married.

For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Isaiah 54:5

and again

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:31-32


This Lord that gave them the law, became flesh and died. Therefore those who were under the law, are now free from the law, to marry Him who is risen from the dead, and the Mediator of the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A person who has the Spirit of Christ within them, can still set their mind on the things of the flesh

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

A person who is in Christ, can still walk according to the flesh, and can still practice the deeds of the flesh, because the sin within their flesh is still producing a desire to be gratified.

Of course a Christian can still gratify the sinful desires of the flesh. What's different for the believer is they don't have to anymore, because they are no longer "in the flesh", because the Spirit of God is in them. That hardly means the Christian will not walk according to the desires of the flesh and satisfy those desires anyway. The point is, he's not doing that because he has to. It's no longer his nature to do so. That nature--the mind set on the flesh--was replaced by a mind set on the things of the Spirit.

That old nature that controlled and dictated that behavior does not exist anymore. Paul said the person with the Spirit is not int he flesh, but rather is in the Spirit. This probably grates with you because the church at large is taught that you are in the flesh when you don't walk by the Spirit. But Paul defined 'not in the flesh' as being the person who possesses the Spirit. But like I say, that doesn't mean we won't walk according to the flesh as if we were still 'in the flesh'. Every honest Christian knows that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have just shown you from the many scriptures, that the "sin nature" as you call it, [which is not found in the scriptures], is not dead.

"3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3 NASB)

Do you know what 'by nature' means? It's what causes and drives a creature to be what it is. It has no choice but to be what it's nature dictates. This is no longer true in regard to the old sin nature for the Christian because his old nature dies and goes away and is replaced with the nature of Christ. He becomes a new creation. He has a new nature.

We were never married to "ourselves".

It's an analogy. Do you know what an analogy is?
We were 'one' with the mindset of sin. We we 'married' to our old nature in that we HAD to obey it's demands, like a wife has to obey her husband. But in Christ, husband 'sin nature' dies, and since he has died we are no longer, by force of the law of Moses, 'married' to him that we have to do what he says anymore.

No where in the scriptures is there any place that says the Jews [those who know the law] which is who Paul directed this to, were married to themselves, [sin nature]. There would have to be this somewhere in the old testament for those who know the law, to understand what he was saying.

What is found in the law, is the Lord was there Husband, and was the One to whom they were married.

For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Isaiah 54:5

and again

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:31-32


This Lord that gave them the law, became flesh and died. Therefore those who were under the law, are now free from the law, to marry Him who is risen from the dead, and the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Great analogy, but it's teaching something else than what Paul is teaching in Romans 7, just as when Jesus used the analogy of leaven to describe the working through of the kingdom of God, despite the fact that another analogy of leaven teaches the working through of wickedness and false teaching. And then of course there is the analogy of the flesh of the heart being a bad thing, and the analogy of the flesh of the heart being a good thing. Your argument that the analogy of marriage means one thing here so it HAS to mean the same thing in this analogy doesn't hold up scripturally.

 

[reba]

Is our sin nature dead? Boom Slam Dunk... or does it die over a span of time... ? In myself i can see some sinful thoughts / ideas just did drop dead others have revived at times...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is our sin nature dead? Boom Slam Dunk... or does it die over a span of time... ? In myself i can see some sinful thoughts / ideas just did drop dead others have revived at times...

Are you by nature an object of God's wrath, or were you?

 

[JLB]

"3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3 NASB)

Do you know what 'by nature' means? It's what causes and drives a creature to be what it is. It has no choice but to be what it's nature dictates. This is no longer true in regard to the old sin nature for the Christian because his old nature dies and goes away and is replaced with the nature of Christ. He becomes a new creation. He has a new nature.

Our spirit was dead in trespasses and sin.

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. James 5:17

I believe we have been given to partake of God's Divine Nature.

Great analogy, but it's teaching something else than what Paul is teaching in Romans 7,

It exactly what Paul teaches.

The Law giver became flesh and died, and with Him the law.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law ...

Not sin nature, dead to the law.


I will leave you with your teaching.


Thanks


JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you by nature an object of God's wrath, or were you?

You will be by nature an object of God's wrath, if you walk in the desires of the flesh and practice the works of the flesh.

The sin nature within you that produces these desires.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7

 

[reba]

Are you by nature an object of God's wrath, or were you?

I understand the answer to be here in the Words of Jesus paraphrased simply... i was in condemnation/wrath until i believed...

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means I believe the sin nature is dead and any sin we commit simply does not come from a mind set on the flesh, as it did before we received a mind set on the Spirit. Any sinful desire that rises up in us comes from the flesh itself, not from a sin nature--a mind set on and always thinking about how to gratify the flesh.

Before Christ we sinned because by nature that's what we always thought about and craved in our inner being, like a dog that barks and chases bunny rabbits because that's what his mind is constantly tuned to. But in Christ we don't have that nature of always thinking about satisfying sinful desires at work in us anymore. It is quite literally GONE. We now think from our new nature which is to satisfy the desires of the Spirit. We spend the rest of our lives learning how to do that and stop listening to the ghosts of our former nature that speak to us from our flesh bodies.

Whoa Jethro
I didn't even finish readng your post yet.
You say that any sin we commit simply does not come from a mind set ON THE FLESH, but that it comes from THE FLESH ITSELF, NOT FROM A SIN NATURE.

I've been asking you forever what it is that makes us sin if the sin nature is gone. Your reply to JLB explains to me the fallacy of your understanding - which is:

THE FLESH AND THE SIN NATURE ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING!

So, what you're saying in your 1st pp above, that it's the flesh itself causing us to sin and not the sin nature is theologically incorrect, since they are one and the same thing. In the N.T. you could replace sin nature with flesh and V V. They are one and the same. So if you believe it's the FLESH making us sin, what you're saying is that it's the SIN NATURE that makes us sin.

Wondering

 

[Deborah13]

Of course a Christian can still gratify the sinful desires of the flesh. What's different for the believer is they don't have to anymore, because they are no longer "in the flesh", because the Spirit of God is in them. That hardly means the Christian will not walk according to the desires of the flesh and satisfy those desires anyway. The point is, he's not doing that because he has to. It's no longer his nature to do so. That nature--the mind set on the flesh--was replaced by a mind set on the things of the Spirit.

This is a quote from the writings of John Gill under Romans 7:5 about 'in the flesh'. I think it makes some sense of it. It's a little long but I didn't want to corrupt it by leaving out any portion. I emphasized some portions.
John Gill's Commentary 1697-1771
"and the sense is this, "for when we", Jews and Gentiles, who are now believers in Christ, "were" formerly, before our conversion to, and faith in Christ, "in the flesh", that is, in a corrupt, carnal, and unregenerate state and condition; in which sense the word "flesh" is frequently used in the next chapter: now not all such who have flesh, sin, or corrupt nature in them, must be reckoned to be in the flesh, for there is a difference between flesh being in persons, from which none are free in this life, and their being in the flesh; nor all such who commit sin, or do carnal things at times, for there is not a just man that doth good and sinneth not; but such who are as they were born, without any alteration made in them by the Spirit and grace of God; who have nothing but flesh in them, no fear of God, nor love to and faith in Christ, nor any experience of the work of the Spirit of God upon their souls; no true sight and sense of sin, nor any spiritual knowledge of salvation by Christ; in whom flesh is the governing principle, whose minds and principles are carnal, and their conversation wholly so; yea, persons may be in the flesh, in an unregenerate state, who may abstain from the grosser immoralities of life, and even make a profession of religion: now such these had been the apostle is speaking of and to, and tells how it was with them when in this state;"

 

[GodsGrace]

It means I believe the sin nature is dead and any sin we commit simply does not come from a mind set on the flesh, as it did before we received a mind set on the Spirit. Any sinful desire that rises up in us comes from the flesh itself, not from a sin nature--a mind set on and always thinking about how to gratify the flesh.

Before Christ we sinned because by nature that's what we always thought about and craved in our inner being, like a dog that barks and chases bunny rabbits because that's what his mind is constantly tuned to. But in Christ we don't have that nature of always thinking about satisfying sinful desires at work in us anymore. It is quite literally GONE. We now think from our new nature which is to satisfy the desires of the Spirit. We spend the rest of our lives learning how to do that and stop listening to the ghosts of our former nature that speak to us from our flesh bodies.

If we're spending the rest of our lives LEARNING how to do that (satisfy the desires of the Spirit) how are the fleshly desires (same as sin nature) gone? If they were gone we wouldn't need to learn anything - it would be automatic and instantaneous.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you suggesting that you have made zero progress toward not sinning in thought or deed?

Zero progress signifies that a change of nature has not occurred. It does not signify that the two natures are somehow co-existing with each other and the old one is ruling. That's saying we have both a mind set on the desires of the flesh, and a mind set on the desires of the Spirit. But Paul makes it clear that the believer has the mind set on the Spirit. That is our new nature. Our old nature was a mind set on the flesh.

He says we are NOT in the flesh anymore by virtue of having the Spirit within us. He did not say we are not in the flesh when we obey the Spirit. He said we have the mind of the Spirit by having the Spirit.

The above is for Smaller. Don't know if he answered.

But I'd like to say the because one believes we retain the sin nature it doesn't mean that we're not making progress toward not sinning in thought or deed. That's where the learning comes in, which you mentioned and I answered to in post no. 257. You yourself say we have to learn. Again, why would we have to learn if we have killed the sin nature?

Please remember that sin nature and flesh is the same idea when Paul is speaking. Remember that he's speaking to Christians. He exhorts them not to sin.
Hebrews 10:26
Paul is speaking to Christians sinning willfully. How do we sin willfully if the sin nature/flesh is gone?
In post 235 you say:
As believers we no longer have the mind that drives sinful desires.

Again, I ask, if we no longer have the mindset that drives sinful desires, why does Paul, and others, beg us not to sin? Because we still have our flesh/sin nature. Jesus nailed the Law to the cross. The Law makes us aware of our sin nature. Jesus wins it over and infuses the Holy Spirit into us so we could win and CONTROL the sin nature.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what I was referring to. When we do sin we are doing what that new creature really does Not want to do. This is what I meant by the desire of the heart has changed, we no longer desire, in our hearts/spirit, to sin.

Simply and perfectly put...

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand the answer to be here in the Words of Jesus paraphrased simply... i was in condemnation/wrath until i believed...

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hi Reba,

Jethro asks
Are you by nature an object of God's wrath, or were you?

I say you've hit the nail on the head.
BY NATURE we are and will always be an object of God's wrath. He is perfect. We are very imperfect. Perfection has a difficult time with imperfection - even with us human folk. A great ice-skater wonders why I fall and can't skate well. So, as you stated with scripture, this is why we need the Lord. So He could cover for us, so God will see Him and not us - only He was able to pay for our transgressions because He is God and is a perfect lamb - which is what God demands.
Romans 13:14
Galatians 3:27
We are to "put on" Christ like a coat to cover our sins.

Wondering