Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

[Roro1972]

Jethro your post reminds me of
1Peter 5
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I never heard of death to sin.

Our Bibles speak very clearly about death to sin:

"10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6: NASB bold mine)

But I'm not surprised that you've never heard of it because the church has taught that what died was the law, as in 'we don't have to do it anymore'. But what Paul is teaching is that what died was our master/husband, 'sin nature'. And because he has died with Christ on the cross we are released from the authority and power of the law to keep us in an obedient relationship with deceased husband and master 'sin nature'. For as Paul explains using what we all understand from the law of Moses, a marriage ends when the husband dies. Therefore, the law can't enforce and keep us in a 'one flesh' relationship with a husband who isn't alive anymore. And best of all, we are now free to marry another, namely Jesus Christ, and bear fruit to him; in his image, the fruit of life and righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just want to let you know, Jethro, that I agree with your study so far. There is never a "like" button when you need one.

I was confident that you'd be with me on this. It is Messianic teaching that taught me to see what Paul is actually saying in plain words in the passage. That teaching helped me to stop filtering the words through the powerful indoctrination presently gripping the church that says Paul is teaching us that we don't have to 'keep' the righteous requirements of the law anymore because of Christ. From the context, not being 'under' the law means something very different than what most in the church thinks it means. Not being under the law means not being under the authority of the law to keep us in sin and condemn us for being in that sin.

Oh, and by the way, I'm seeing the 'Like' button in this thread.

 

[jocor]

I was confident that you'd be with me on this. It is Messianic teaching that taught me to see what Paul is actually saying in plain words in the passage. That teaching helped me to stop filtering the words through the powerful indoctrination presently gripping the church that says Paul is teaching us that we don't have to 'keep' the righteous requirements of the law anymore because of Christ. From the context, not being 'under' the law means something very different than what most in the church thinks it means. Not being under the law means not being under the authority of the law to keep us in sin and condemn us for being in that sin.

Oh, and by the way, I'm seeing the 'Like' button in this thread.

How long ago did you learn this?

It seems the "like" button is not available to everyone.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How long ago did you learn this?

Oh, maybe 8 to 10 years ago. I learned it through discussions with Messianic believers in another forum. I had to be honest and acknowledge that they were right--Paul teaches the end of the condemnation of the law, not the end of the righteous requirements of the law themselves. And what they shared about the history of the church that starts with a 'C' and ends with a 'c' (lol) and how they are largely responsible for outlawing the law and misleading the church about the role of the law in this New Covenant was a real eye opener.

It seems the "like" button is not available to everyone.

That's strange. I wonder why.

 

[Roro1972]

well I'm learning a lot even though I have not used the like button on all Jethro's post.

 

[JLB]

No. They were created naked:

The command had not come yet so as to expose the shame of their nakedness. That's what the command does--it exposes our lack of clothing (to us, not God--he already knows that).

The became [aware they were] naked, because of the sin, not because of the commandment.

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew [were aware] that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Genesis 3:6-7



JLB

 

[JLB]

I learned it through discussions with Messianic believers in another forum.

Is that where you got the idea that the "husband" Paul is talking about, is the "sinful nature", and not the Lord who gave the law?

Clearly the Lord was the Husband to the children of Israel.

For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. Isaiah 54:5


Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:1-4


Jesus is the Law [Word] who became flesh, and when His body died, the law died with Him.

Which is why Paul says... you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ...

and again

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14


What got nailed to the cross?

The body of Christ... and with it the handwriting of requirements.

Those of us who were Baptized, were Baptized into His death, so we also have become dead to the law.

and again

...having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances.
Ephesians 2:15



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, maybe 8 to 10 years ago. I learned it through discussions with Messianic believers in another forum. I had to be honest and acknowledge that they were right--Paul teaches the end of the condemnation of the law, not the end of the righteous requirements of the law themselves. And what they shared about the history of the church that starts with a 'C' and ends with a 'c' (lol) and how they are largely responsible for outlawing the law and misleading the church about the role of the law in this New Covenant was a real eye opener.


That's strange. I wonder why.

Hi Jethro,

This isn't a debate forum and I'm not sure what that means.
But the New Covenant has everything to do with what you've brought up.
What do you think IS the role of the Law in the New Covenant?

The N.C. is an unconditional covenant. Well, you have to accept it, that would be the only condition - but after that there are none placed on us.

The O.C. (Mosaic) required that we follow the Law. This was not possible.
The N.C. teaches that God will forgive the sins of those in the N.C. immediately. No waiting around in Abraham's Bossom after death. It also teaches that there'll be an internal transformation with the POSSIBILITY of obedience which did not exist in the O.C.

I could get into it more but I'm not even sure I should be here...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry Jethro, also you say:

Paul teaches the end of the condemnation of the law, not the end of the righteous requirements of the law themselves.

We are no longer CONDEMNED by the Law. The dominion of the Law has been put to death.
We are STILL under the righteous requirements of the Law.

That's why we can still sin. We are still required to keep the Law. (but now it's possible to).
If it's SIN that died, it means we wouldn't be able to sin anymore. Do you think born again believers don't sin?

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is that where you got the idea that the "husband" Paul is talking about, is the "sinful nature"

No. I got that from just reading the text.

We are no longer CONDEMNED by the Law. The dominion of the Law has been put to death.
We are STILL under the righteous requirements of the Law.

That is exactly what I've been saying. Exactly.

If it's SIN that died, it means we wouldn't be able to sin anymore. Do you think born again believers don't sin?

Your sin nature is what died. It died in that it's power to rule and control you has been defeated at the cross. That sin nature has been replaced with the new nature. That is what now rules inside of us. We are new creations in Christ.

You wouldn't make the same argument about the new nature that you are making about the sin nature, would you? IOW, if we apply your reasoning to the new nature then righteousness can not really be alive in us because we don't always act righteously. Of course you know that's not true. Likewise, just because we still sin doesn't mean the sin nature has not died. There has been a change in ownership and authority. We now rightfully belong to a new Master/Husband because old master/husband has been knocked off his throne as though dead. He is dead in that we don't have to obey him anymore. That being true we are no longer provoked to serve him by the law. We are no longer 'under' the law in that regard. But the church hears it as 'we are no longer under the law in that we don't have to keep it anymore'. That is NOT what Paul is teaching. The new nature seeks to fulfill the law, not destroy it. This should not even be a point of discussion since Paul plainly said it is the body of sin that died with Christ on the cross. I posted where he plainly said that.

The became [aware they were] naked, because of the sin, not because of the commandment.

The commandment provoked their sin, arousing it to life, exposing their nakedness:

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead." (Romans 7:7-8 NASB capitals in original)

"through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20 NASB italics in original)

Through the law we gain knowledge of our propensity to sin--our nakedness, our lack of righteous covering.

Those of us who were Baptized, were Baptized into His death, so we also have become dead to the law.

and again

...having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Ephesians 2:15

Exactly. We are dead to the law. It has no more authority over us to condemn us. Because of the new creation it can't condemn us and keep us out of fellowship with and worship of God in the ways the law did that.

Just think of any law that would stand between you and closeness and fellowship with God and then think about how being in Christ and being a new creation lifts you above that law so that it's judgment doesn't apply to you anymore. Instead of the old creation that solicits the judgement of the law, the new creation actually satisfies it's requirements. For example, Moabites can now enter the assembly because they aren't Moabites anymore, they are new creations in Christ the one new man, and are a member of Christ's body himself. Christ can enter the assembly, and since a (former) Moabite who believes is attached to the body of Christ the law of the Moabite doesn't have any authority over him anymore to judge him and keep him out of the assembly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the New Covenant has everything to do with what you've brought up.
What do you think IS the role of the Law in the New Covenant?

Well, I knew we'd get to this subject soon enough.
Let's talk about it later after I knock out a few brain surgeries at work today.
Talk to you soon.

 

[JLB]

The commandment provoked their sin, arousing it to life, exposing their nakedness:

Brother, I haven't found where the bible mentions any sin Adam and Eve had, to be provoked... could you point this out?

Their first sin was disobeying God and obeying Satan.

Until they actually ate of the tree, they had no sin to provoke.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. Genesis 3:6-7


Maybe you meant to say, "their desire was aroused"?

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:6

To me this desire was aroused by Satan, who out of the "issue" of his heart, poured forth defilement into Eve as she conversed with him, and enticed her with a defiling desire.

20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:20-23

and again

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore“put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:6-13


Satan spreads his defilement through immoral people, which can weaken a whole church community, in this manner.


What comes out of immoral people's heart, is what defiles a person who associates with them.


"Granny" said it this way - birds of a feather, flock together.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Until they actually ate of the tree, they had no sin to provoke.

They were naked. Because of that nakedness they sinned. They had no sin guilt on their account before they sinned. But they also didn't have any righteousness to their credit either--they were naked.

Maybe you meant to say, "their desire was aroused"?

That's what I'm saying. Sinful desire was aroused by the commandment. And because they had no covering of righteousness they were were easy game for the deceitfulness of that desire. And so it is with each of us. We are born naked, without any righteousness. So when the commandment comes sinful desire is conceived and gives birth to sin (Romans 7:9, James 1:14-15) and we die. The law is what provokes this birth of sin in a person.

To me this desire was aroused by Satan, who out of the "issue" of his heart, poured forth defilement into Eve as she conversed with him, and enticed her with a defiling desire.

James says a person is "dragged away by their own evil desire" (James 1:14 NIV), but surely, as Paul says, "evil is right there with me" (Romans 7:21 NIV) helping every inch of the way. The point is, though, it is through the commandment that this whole process of exposure and death gets set into motion.

"11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (Romans 7:11 NIV)

 

[JLB]

And so it is with each of us. We are born naked, without any righteousness. So when the commandment comes sinful desire is conceived and gives birth to sin (Romans 7:9, James 1:14-15) and we die. The law is what provokes this birth of sin in a person.

The law of Moses died when the body of Christ died on the cross.

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thusmaking peace, Ephesians 2:15

They were naked. Because of that nakedness they sinned. They had no sin guilt on their account before they sinned. But they also didn't have any righteousness to their credit either--they were naked.


That's what I'm saying. Sinful desire was aroused by the commandment. And because they had no covering of righteousness they were were easy game for the deceitfulness of that desire. And so it is with each of us. We are born naked, without any righteousness. So when the commandment comes sinful desire is conceived and gives birth to sin (Romans 7:9, James 1:14-15) and we die. The law is what provokes this birth of sin in a person.


James says a person is "dragged away by their own evil desire" (James 1:14 NIV), but surely, as Paul says, "evil is right there with me" (Romans 7:21 NIV) helping every inch of the way. The point is, though, it is through the commandment that this whole process of exposure and death gets set into motion.

"11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (Romans 7:11 NIV)

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:6

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Jethro,
You answer to two persons in one post and I can't work the "reply", or at least I don't know how to.

You're really confusing me and that's not easy to do!

In answering me, you say:

Your sin nature is what died. It died in that it's power to rule and control you has been defeated at the cross. That sin nature has been replaced with the new nature. That is what now rules inside of us. We are new creations in Christ.

Then to JLB you say:

Exactly. We are dead to the law. It has no more authority over us to condemn us. Because of the new creation it can't condemn us and keep us out of fellowship with and worship of God in the ways the law did that.

Seems to me you're saying two different things here. First you say it's the sin nature that has died. Then you say we are dead to the Law. So, I guess, because we are dead to the Law it must mean that the sin nature has died.
But you agree with me that it's the DOMINION of sin that has been killed, the authority it has over us.

Isn't this saying two different things?

Just go to Romans 8:1-10
In short it's saying that the Law kills but the Spirit gives life. Why would we still have to keep it if it kills? Jesus said in Mathew 5:17 that He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it and that everyone is to keep the Law.

Fulfill the Law means to make whole or to complete. It wasn't complete before because it could not be kept.
Jesus, the perfect lamb of God, satisfied the Law of the old covenant. He was the perfect sacrifice and none other would be needed.

Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on things of the flesh, but those who are according to the spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Once you are saved, you're no longer walking in the flesh but in the spirit. kRomans 8:10 says that if Christ is in us the body could be dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. The body is not really dead - it's dead t sin because God no longer sees our sin but sees His Son. The spirit is alive because of righteousness. Jesus is that righteousness - the perfect Lamb of God sacrificed for us.

If we need to be In Christ to be righteous, it must mean that we still need Him after salvation. If we still need Him after salvation it must mean that we still sin. If we're still sinning, how did the sin nature in us die? If the sin nature in us died WHY are we still sinning? To bring your theory to a logical conclusion we'd have to go ahead and say that we don't sin anymore.

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins He will purify us from all unrighteousness.

Because He IS our righteousness.

So, if we're still sinning, how was the sin nature put to death??

Wondering

 

[JLB]

So, if we're still sinning, how was the sin nature put to death??

It's not. But we can put to death the "deeds" of the flesh, by the Spirit.

The "deeds" arise from the law of sin, dwelling in out flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Sin (nature) dwelling in our flesh, desires to gratify its lustful cravings.

We can mortify, put to death, the manifestations of these lustful cravings, by The Spirit; i.e. By being filled with the Spirit.

Make no mistake, the sin nature will be there in the morning, trying to express itself through the human will and body.

This will continue until Jesus returns, and we receive our new immortal bodies that will never die, as they will be just like The Body Jesus has.

This will truly be the rest we all are longing for.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If we live to satisfy the lustful cravings of the sin nature in our flesh, we will die... Eternal death.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi JLB

Yes. I agree with your above post no. 57.
I'm spending some time looking into the "husband" idea and what it is we're married to.
Lata...

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Seems to me you're saying two different things here. First you say it's the sin nature that has died. Then you say we are dead to the Law.

The law is what gave power to the sin nature to rule over and control you and I (1 Corinthians 15:56). But sin nature is no longer in control of us (like a husband over a wife--1 Peter 3:5-6) because he died and got replaced by new Husband/ Master, Jesus Christ. He now controls and rules over us and leads us into righteousness. The old husband 'sin nature' led us into sin and unrighteousness.

So, I guess, because we are dead to the Law it must mean that the sin nature has died.

Bingo! You win the four slot toaster.
We are dead to the law in that it has no hook in us anymore to arouse sin in us. That hook was our sin nature, our old propensity to sin. It got replaced by the new nature, the nature of Christ. Now the law--the righteous requirements of God--stirs up the desire to love and serve God according to those requirements. Paul talks about that here:

"those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. " (Romans 8:5 NASB)

Those who are still in the flesh--that is, the sin nature--have their minds set on doing wrong. But transformed new creations in Christ who have the Holy Spirit have their mind set on doing right. That's because a change of ownership has occurred. We belong to a new master/husband now. One who bears in us the fruit of righteousness and life, not the fruit of unrighteousness and death that the old husband bore in us (Romans 7:4-5).

But you agree with me that it's the DOMINION of sin that has been killed, the authority it has over us.

Yipper.
And because the dominion of 'sin nature' has died the law can't enforce an intimate relationship with 'him' anymore--like how a legal marriage certificate can't enforce the dominion of a now deceased husband. So it is in that sense that we are dead to the law--like when a husband dies the wife is dead to the law of marriage. It no longer has any authority over her to keep her in intimate relationship with that deceased husband. She is free to be legitimately married to another. One who will then bear children in her in his likeness.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hi JLB

Yes. I agree with your above post no. 57.
I'm spending some time looking into the "husband" idea and what it is we're married to.
Lata...

Wondering

Hi wondering, Paul says he uses the examples of men because of the infirmity of our flesh, so it is easier to understand., yet men still struggle with it's understanding. The illustration is that once we were slaves to sin and it's end results. But now we are free from being slaves to sin and have become slaves to righteousness. We are freed from the one master of sin in our soles to another master of our souls of and to righteousness. (Rom. 6: 19-23) All that the law did was to magnify sin in man.