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Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

wondering said:
So, if we're still sinning, how was the sin nature put to death??
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His ownership of us, his dominion has ended. He is dead to us, and we to him, like a deceased husband who can't rule over us anymore. Romans 6 is all about reckoning that as truth, so that by faith we say 'you're dead, buster, you no longer own me. I'm no longer obligated by the law to obey you' when the temptation to sin comes. Here's what Douglas was pointing out...

17 ...thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms (slave/master, wife/husband) because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:15-19 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

As Douglas is pointing out, getting a visual through the illustration of natural marriage helps us understand and believe the truth that the sin nature has been removed from his place as husband and master over us and we are now free to obey the dictates of our new husband and master Jesus Christ, who conceives in us the fruit of righteousness in his image according to his seed.
 
Jethro,

Would you say the "sin nature" is our "old man"?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.​
 
Great discussion.. I agree with your points (including many will disagree)
In the last post you skipped the verse where Paul said specifically what you are saying.
ROMANS 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
 
Warrior4Jesus said:
If I understand this correctly. If our sin nature is our old man then those who still sin after accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit must not really be a christian or have Christ in them? Please correct/comment.
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Oh, Jethro might beat on my head for this but then he knows I am a knot headed old man.

W4J, partially so! But be careful where you tread! In some holes the water is less than half an inch but in like appearing holes it can be 10 foot deep. When you see this issue in anyone, it is cause for careful and quiet examination.

On the other hand the examination must be or should be thorough because we still are bound to the old man until we ascend into Heaven. It has been a long, long time since I preached or taught this lesson and I have lost track of the scriptures for the message but,

When we are saved we become much like unto a murderer that, in some Roman States, when caught soon after crime, the body of the deceased was tied with ropes, plural, to his back. It remained there until the rotting dead man, literally, made the guilty man pay for his crime by killing him from the corruption, puss and the insects killed him.

In this illustration we carry the Old Man, though dead, on our backs until we pass over. I relate to this because though I do not do the crimes today, that temptation, the old man, is still there! So take care with this.
 
th1b.taylor said:
When we are saved we become much like unto a murderer that, in some Roman States, when caught soon after crime, the body of the deceased was tied with ropes, plural, to his back. It remained there until the rotting dead man, literally, made the guilty man pay for his crime by killing him from the corruption, puss and the insects killed him.

In this illustration we carry the Old Man, though dead, on our backs until we pass over. I relate to this because though I do not do the crimes today, that temptation, the old man, is still there! So take care with this.
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Actually, I like the illustration. It's accurate, so you're safe from having your head beat on.......this time. :lol (Love ya, bro).

An illustration that I was tossing around in my head yesterday was that of a widow. She still has a photograph of her abusive, now deceased husband on her night stand, and in the parlor, and in the hallway, even in her wallet. Everywhere she goes, at every turn is the reminder of this old relationship. She's often reminded of him through the day and she can still hear his voice, bellowing from the grave, startling her into instant mindless fearful submission again. But Paul is assuring us, that clod is dead. Take the pictures on the walls and the reminders in your head down and know with surety on God's Word that he is dead. He has no more authority over you to cause you to crumble in fearful submission to his bellowing voice, and his manipulative ways. Any authority he has is being manufactured in your own mind. It's a lie. And out of that conviction, rise up in love and obedience to your new husband and master, Jesus Christ.
 
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Warrior4Jesus said:
If I understand this correctly. If our sin nature is our old man then those who still sin after accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit must not really be a christian or have Christ in them? Please correct/comment.
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I think taylor's got it covered. The stinking carcass, the stinging memories, the pattern of our old ways, won't stop affecting us, like a corpse tied to our backs, until we get to glory.

I touched on this point earlier in this thread with wondering. To keep this post short (I'm heading out the door to work), Paul talks about the sinner becoming more and more sinful, while the saint is becoming more and more righteous (reference forthcoming). The point being, if an ever increasing move toward wickedness in the sinner doesn't mean he's not really in the sin nature (that is, he's not totally wicked all of the time), surely then an ever increasing righteousness in the saint doesn't have to mean he does not really have the new nature. Are you following me?

I always use the encouraging words of scripture with my fellow saints that righteousness in the new nature is that of an ever increasing righteousness. That's the signature of the new nature--progression towards perfection (reference available upon request).
 
RevSRE said:
Great discussion.. I agree with your points (including many will disagree)
In the last post you skipped the verse where Paul said specifically what you are saying.
ROMANS 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
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"has made me free"
Amen, amen, and amen.
 
As usual an entire scriptural entity class is missing in the study of law.

The Word of God inclusive of Law does move Satan into action "in" man's heart.

Mark 4:15.

The instant any believer "truthfully" says within themselves: "Yes, this does happen to me" rather than lying to themselves saying, "No, this doesn't happen to you because you are a believer" they will never see or understand the Law the same again.

IF any believer does manage to stumble into this fact they will also figure out why "we" can never be legally obedient. Because there is no individual. There is the person and there is the tempter, the deceiver in heart.

Scripture is quite unique in this depiction of man i.e. there is no such thing as just a person as an individual in the text. There are two parties engaged by every Word of God.

Every fibre of every person's "flesh" will fight this disclosure, automatically, every single time. And this is because it is not just "them" as an individual involved. Satan or his minions will resist this disclosure. That is what they do "in" man. Man is their house, their "hiding place."

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

It's pretty easy to attack a blindman. Believers struggle to not sin, but they struggle in vain. The tempter, Satan, can do no other thing in "their house." All have sin and sin is in fact of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

A person who sees their flesh house "honestly" WILL SEE the occupants, and RULE over same, in truth.

When it is "your time" to see, if there ever is such an "honesty time" in any person's flesh life, then they will see. Only God in Christ can grant this sight. To most it will remain locked tight. It is a door that can not be opened by any man/person.

Once this is seen the person seeing will laugh at the notion of the "flesh" being legal.

The Divine Joke is and remains upon the flesh. More importantly, the wicked occupants therein.

Psalm 2
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
 
Warrior4Jesus said:
I have a hard time following what your saying smaller. Is there a simpler way you could describe it?
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The Law(s) of God are not directed to man only.

What I've generally observed is that Satan is moved into action in man's heart by the law, the Word of God. Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables point directly to that activity.

The law is also directed to the lawless. 1 Tim. 1:9. Satan, the devil and his messengers are assuredly lawless as well as "sinners." 1 John 3:8.

This lawless activity of these bad actors does transpire "within" the hearts of mankind. Therefore these law questions/equations that are void of the other parties are void sights.

The devil and his messengers were made to resist the laws of God, and are even empowered by them, to resist. 1 Cor. 15:56.

There is however a BLOCK put into the scriptures. Anyone who denies that their sin is of the devil will not be able to see much of anything regarding the law and what is being pointed to.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Actually, I like the illustration. It's accurate, so you're safe from having your head beat on.......this time. :lol (Love ya, bro).

An illustration that I was tossing around in my head yesterday was that of a widow. She still has a photograph of her abusive, now deceased husband on her night stand, and in the parlor, and in the hallway, even in her wallet. Everywhere she goes, at every turn is the reminder of this old relationship. She's often reminded of him through the day and she can still hear his voice, bellowing from the grave, startling her into instant mindless fearful submission again. But Paul is assuring us, that clod is dead. Take the pictures on the walls and the reminders in your head down and know with surety on God's Word that he is dead. He has no more authority over you to cause you to crumble in fearful submission to his bellowing voice, and his manipulative ways. Any authority he has is being manufactured in your own mind. It's a lie. And out of that conviction, rise up in love and obedience to your new husband and master, Jesus Christ.
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Amen, and we must never again submit to the fool.
 
smaller said:
The Law(s) of God are not directed to man only.

What I've generally observed is that Satan is moved into action in man's heart by the law, the Word of God. Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables point directly to that activity.

The law is also directed to the lawless. 1 Tim. 1:9. Satan, the devil and his messengers are assuredly lawless as well as "sinners." 1 John 3:8.

This lawless activity of these bad actors does transpire "within" the hearts of mankind. Therefore these law questions/equations that are void of the other parties are void sights.

The devil and his messengers were made to resist the laws of God, and are even empowered by them, to resist. 1 Cor. 15:56.

There is however a BLOCK put into the scriptures. Anyone who denies that their sin is of the devil will not be able to see much of anything regarding the law and what is being pointed to.
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Sounds to me like you are trying to use a "the devil made me do it" type of rationale. Explain sexual sin.. Sexual sin originates in the body. Explain how we all know how to sin at birth and don't have to learn how to do it, the nature is already there. Please explain.
 
Warrior4Jesus said:
Sounds to me like you are trying to use a "the devil made me do it" type of rationale.
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And it sounds like people who say that are missing the points entirely. It's about what the devil does. Not as your claim states.

fwiw I met Flip Wilson personally before he died. Great comedian. Not a theologian.

Explain sexual sin.. Sexual sin originates in the body. Explain how we all know how to sin at birth and don't have to learn how to do it, the nature is already there. Please explain.
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All sin is connected to the devil. There is no logical way to avoid that conclusion. And sin is also linked to transgression of the law, which the devil and his messengers do. Transgress. 1 John 3:4.

There is no accurate discussion of law or sin without "all" the parties involved. I consider any discussion that purposefully denies these links of sin and law to the devil to be demonically inspired at their core.
 
I believe the enemy can do no more to me than he did to Jesus in the wilderness. He can tempt but he cannot cause. He is also not in me or he would be able to hear my thoughts which he cannot only my reaction to his temptations. To say The devil is inside of us causing us to do things is preposterous. It is however possible I don't understand what you mean still as I already mentioned your post seemed like a riddle to me.
 
Warrior4Jesus said:
I believe the enemy can do no more to me than he did to Jesus in the wilderness.
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God Himself in the flesh and everyone else is not an accurate comparison. Satan had nothing "in" Jesus. None of us can make that same claim.

He can tempt but he cannot cause.
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Many claim that they don't have evil thoughts or they'll deny that such thoughts are sin or they'll deny that such thoughts are not demonically inspired. None of these types of claims are truthful to the scriptures. Jesus said that evil thoughts do defile us. What is evil and defiling is assuredly sin. Matt. 5:28, simple example of demonic thought/law violation.

He is also not in me or he would be able to hear my thoughts which he cannot only my reaction to his temptations. To say The devil is inside of us causing us to do things is preposterous. It is however possible I don't understand what you mean still as I already mentioned your post seemed like a riddle to me.
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Once anyone sees the connection they will understand that the types of responses you provide are actually predictable. They'll also find out it's impossible to persuade the resistance parties in the flesh otherwise. 2 Cor. 12:7.
 
The authority of the Law will show anyone that when it is upheld, the devil and his messengers "in man" resist.

That is the power of the law, God's Words. And this power will either now in this life or later at final judgment make everyone shut up, as guilty.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Every mouth and all the world encompasses everyone.
 
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