Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7

[Chopper]

wondering, I'm short on time to participate in the forums lately, so I'll just post these verses from the context of Paul's discourse here in Romans to show you that it is the sin nature that has died and which we were married to and which then releases us from the authority of the law to condemn us.

"17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin (husband sin nature), you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from (husband) sin, you became slaves of righteousness (Jesus Christ). 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness (ex-husband sin nature), resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness (new husband Jesus Christ), resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of (husband) sin, you were free in regard to righteousness (that is, Jesus, because you can't be married to someone else while you are presently married).
22But now having been freed from (husband) sin and enslaved to God (husband Jesus), you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." (Romans 6:17-20,22 NASB italics in original, parenthesis mine)

"6But now we have been released from the (authority of the) Law (to keep us in bondage to husband sin nature), having died to that by which we were bound (husband sin nature), so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You can see that the key to understanding 'who' we were married to, and what has now died, is the context of the discussion that Romans 7 is in. He spells out for us 'who' it is that we were bound and enslaved to in Romans 6, then uses the analogy of wife/ husband to further illustrate it in Romans 7. Our enslavement was to the sin nature, not the law. The law acted like the certificate of marriage that kept us bound to the sin nature because it aroused and enforced our relationship with husband sin nature.


Also, I have intended all along to open up another study about the law in regard to it 'passing away' and how that affects our relationship to the law in this New Covenant. Look for it. I'll save you a seat up front.

I'll be looking for that new thread Jethro.

 

[JLB]

No amount of choices are going to make anyone sinless.

Living according to the Spirit automatically comes with having resistance to the Spirit in the flesh. Gal. 5:17.

It is impossible to extend compliance to that which is contrary to the Spirit.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

Here is the scripture with it's context.


17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The choice to "practice" the works of the flesh, will result in not inheriting the kingdom of God...


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm hoping that Jethro will allow this as well JLB or perhaps you could frame a new thread that would be a little different than all others that have been presented.

My answer to your Question, "In short, I will ask you if you think James is writing to Christians or the world in these passages?" is the following Scripture....
James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." Within these twelve Tribes, there were true believers in the promises of God thru the Prophets and examples of the Patriarchs of Israel, and some who were not.

So, V.15 would apply to those who failed to believe by faith the promises of God.

Hi Chopper, back home now from out of town.

Thanks for your response.

• James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. James 1:1

• My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. James 2:1

• Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. James 5:7

James was writing to those Christians who he was called to, [since at the time of this writing and the persecution, no Gentiles had been presented the Gospel]. Those of the twelve tribes of Israel. Jews.

The scattering mentioned in verse 1 is those Christians, who were of the twelve tribes of Israel who were scattered because of the persecution of those days by unbelieving Jews, led by Saul of Tarsus.

This "in your face" confrontation by Stephen while being confronted by the high priest and the council, was the flash point of this persecution, ignited by him, and causing his martyrdom.


51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
8 Now Saul was consenting to his death.

At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial,and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.
Acts 7:51-8:3

The Point: James wrote his letter to Hebrew Christians who had been scattered by this persecution.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Death; Eternal Death is the result of full grow sin, not "loss of rewards".


Sin when it is full grown, brings forth death in the Christian.


John says for the Christian to confess their sin, so that they can be forgiven, and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. John 1:8-9

However, if I after having been cleansed and forgiven of my sins and trespasses, I then again return to the world and live again as I used to live as an unbeliever and never repent... Peter says it would be better for me if I had never known the way of righteousness.


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21


James also warns -

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4


A Christian can make himself an enemy of God, by returning to the world from which he was delivered.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

You are right in saying that if someone who disregards his salvation, he has lost it. After all, there will be a great apostasy in 2 Thess 2. I have no problem with that because he wasn't saved in the first place....I have a hard time believing that all the dispersed Jews were Christians.

 

[ezrider]

What was the weakness or fault found within the covenant of Law the Lord needed a new covenant?

There is nothing wrong or faulted in the law. The fault was found with "them," the people. That fault is sin indwelling the flesh which can not follow the law, ever.

It is not just that the fault was found with "them" being the people. It was a fault in the covenant in the way it actually interacts with the people.

You say the fault is sin indwelling the flesh, but how can that be a fault or flaw within the old covenant of laws and not be a fault with the new covenant because the same sin indwells the flesh under the new covenant that indwelt them under the old. The sin remains the same, but the Law influences the sin indwelling in our flesh much differently than does Grace.

The "letter" of the law can not instill The Spirit of the Law. The Spirit of the Law is spelled out quite sufficiently in Romans 13:8-10 among other similar citings.

I agree with you, the letter of the law can not instill the Spirit of the Law. It is the Lord who writes His Laws into our hearts. There is a tendency within us that when we read the letter of the laws within in the scripture we end up trying to write those laws into our own hearts by our self rather than let the Lord alone write his laws into heart.


So what was wrong with the Law under the first covenant that the Lord required a new covenant? Why was the new covenant necessary?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering, I'm short on time to participate in the forums lately, so I'll just post these verses from the context of Paul's discourse here in Romans to show you that it is the sin nature that has died and which we were married to and which then releases us from the authority of the law to condemn us.

"17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin (husband sin nature), you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from (husband) sin, you became slaves of righteousness (Jesus Christ). 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness (ex-husband sin nature), resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness (new husband Jesus Christ), resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of (husband) sin, you were free in regard to righteousness (that is, Jesus, because you can't be married to someone else while you are presently married).
22But now having been freed from (husband) sin and enslaved to God (husband Jesus), you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." (Romans 6:17-20,22 NASB italics in original, parenthesis mine)

"6But now we have been released from the (authority of the) Law (to keep us in bondage to husband sin nature), having died to that by which we were bound (husband sin nature), so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB parenthesis mine)

You can see that the key to understanding 'who' we were married to, and what has now died, is the context of the discussion that Romans 7 is in. He spells out for us 'who' it is that we were bound and enslaved to in Romans 6, then uses the analogy of wife/ husband to further illustrate it in Romans 7. Our enslavement was to the sin nature, not the law. The law acted like the certificate of marriage that kept us bound to the sin nature because it aroused and enforced our relationship with husband sin nature.


Also, I have intended all along to open up another study about the law in regard to it 'passing away' and how that affects our relationship to the law in this New Covenant. Look for it. I'll save you a seat up front.

Hi Jethro,

You're saying above that the sin nature is dead. That it was our husband and now is no longer our husband but Jesus is our husband. We were slaves to sin (17) and now we have been freed from that slavery (18).
What made us be slaves? It was our tendency toward sin, or the sin nature. The sin nature had power over us. It no longer has power, but we still have the sin nature. How could it have died if we still sin? Are you saying we don't sin anymore??

Using Mathew, just go to Mathew 7:14-25

Paul was already a believer when he wrote Romans. In verse 15 he says that he does the thing he hates. How could he be doing something he hates if he no longer has the sin nature? And verse 18 he says that nothing good dwells in his flesh because he wishes to do good but he does not.

We have to go back all the way to Adam and Eve. Sin entered, man became infected with the sin nature.
We become believers and enter into the family of God, we're baptized - we become new creatures. But the EFFECT of the sin nature remains. We still get sick, we still have weaknesses of character, we still have an inclination to sin. Of course we don't have to give in to sin, we now have the Holy Spirit to help us. 1 Peter 5:8 tells us to be alert because the devil seeks whom he will devour. Why would Peter give this warning if we didn't have to worry about sinning anymore because the sin nature is dead?

For we fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities- Ephesians 6:12
We are to fight the good fight until the end. 1 Timothy 6:12
What are we fighting against -- the sin nature.

When we become saved we're justified and sanctification begins. Sanctification is a process.
1 Peter 2:2-3 That we may GROW in our sanctification. So we can now live under the influence of the Holy Spirit but this does not mean the sin nature has been eradicated. Timothy and James and Peter exhort us to be righteous and not sin - that means we can still sin.

If you say the sin nature is dead, you're also saying we don't sin anymore.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

It is not just that the fault was found with "them" being the people. It was a fault in the covenant in the way it actually interacts with the people.

The citing from Hebrews 8's finding fault was about the people. Them refers to the people not the covenant.

There is no fault with God's Word, the covenant. Unless we make God's Word faulty and that isn't going to happen.

You say the fault is sin indwelling the flesh, but how can that be a fault or flaw within the old covenant of laws

That's the only direction to look. There is no fault in the covenant. If the covenant, among other workings, exposes that matter of sin indwelling the flesh it's not a fault of the covenant.

and not be a fault with the new covenant because the same sin indwells the flesh under the new covenant that indwelt them under the old. The sin remains the same, but the Law influences the sin indwelling in our flesh much differently than does Grace.

I don't think Grace has any different of an effect. If anything Grace can inflame sin just as much as any other Word of God. The Word of God works no differently in regards to being opposed to sin in the O.T. or in the N.T.

I agree with you, the letter of the law can not instill the Spirit of the Law. It is the Lord who writes His Laws into our hearts.

Well, it's interesting that you think there is a fault with the covenant and then claim same written upon our hearts. Doesn't compute.

I've looked at these various issues at length. If God in Christ is within us, then so is every Word of God, also in us.

There is a tendency within us that when we read the letter of the laws within in the scripture we end up trying to write those laws into our own hearts by our self rather than let the Lord alone write his laws into heart.

Pretty easy to blame man. There are other directions to look when matters of sin are on the table, as previously delineated from the scriptures in my prior posts on this matter.

So what was wrong with the Law under the first covenant that the Lord required a new covenant? Why was the new covenant necessary?

What you're attempting is splitting the Word of God or pitting the Word of God of the O.T. as being against God's Word of the N.T. That just isn't going to work. There is no fault with the Word of God, period.

There is however sin indwelling our flesh. That indwelling sin is exposed, aroused and empowered by The Word of God to resist same. The studies of Law/covenant should take into consideration it's adverse relationship with sin and with the devil and his messengers.

This is exactly why it's difficult sledding. Because sin takes a resisting posture to Law, automatically. It's very deceptive. And it is so because it's demonic.

 

[JLB]

You are right in saying that if someone who disregards his salvation, he has lost it. After all, there will be a great apostasy in 2 Thess 2. I have no problem with that because he wasn't saved in the first place....

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15


James plainly says when we have been approved, we will receive the crown of Life.

However in this life we must learn to avoid, and endure temptation, that leads to sin.

... and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Apostasy is not the topic here in James warning, but sin. Not just a mistake here and there, but sin that is neglected to the point it becomes full grown, and ends up bringing death to the Christian who is drawn away by their desires.

Paul says it this way -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Examine Paul's warning, and the language he uses.

....of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things...

Again, like the example James gives, about full grown sin, Paul says I have told you over and over, those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Practice; If I rescue someone from drowning and perform CPR on them and save their life, this doesn't mean I "practice" medicine.

A Doctor practices medicine, it's his life's work. He didn't just stumble into it either. he spent years giving himself over to this driving passion of being a doctor.

Likewise, those who become saved and Baptized, and filled with the Spirit, and go to Church and read the Bible, but then they begin to neglect the things of salvation, and spend time going to the wrong places and consorting with the wrong people, and are tempted and drawn away by their desires, and began practicing the works of the flesh, and like Peter says are overcome... they have become ensnared again by their own desires, as the present themselves as slaves of sin...


13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

and again

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:6

again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

I have a hard time believing that all the dispersed Jews were Christians.

How so?

They were dispersed from the persecution of unbelieving Jews, led by Saul of Tarsus.

• How else was the Lord going to get them out to begin the work He began with Abraham.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,“In you all the nations shall be blessed. Galatians 3:8

• The Lord was setting the stage for the Gospel to be spread beyond Jerusalem to other parts of the nation, including Samara and eventually the Gentiles.

Now Saul was consenting to his death.

At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial,and made great lamentation over him.

3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.

4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word.5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. Acts 8:1-8



JLB

 

[ezrider]

There is no fault with God's Word, the covenant. Unless we make God's Word faulty and that isn't going to happen.

That's the only direction to look. There is no fault in the covenant. If the covenant, among other workings, exposes that matter of sin indwelling the flesh it's not a fault of the covenant.

Well, it's interesting that you think there is a fault with the covenant and then claim same written upon our hearts. Doesn't compute.

What you're attempting is splitting the Word of God or pitting the Word of God of the O.T. as being against God's Word of the N.T. That just isn't going to work. There is no fault with the Word of God, period.

There is no attempt at splitting the Word of God on my part. That is the resistance to the truth that you so often talk about revealing in what appears to be an unwillingness to answer a simple question. Hebrews 8 used the word fault in relation to the old covenant and the necessity of the new covenant: I ask why then was the new covenant necessary? But from you quotes above, it is obvious to me that you have only been able to see the word fault in its usage as a cause of blame, but that is not what I am suggesting. So lets not use the word fault then so that it is not misleading. I could use the word flawed, but then you might assume I was saying the word of God is flawed, so that word obviously won't work. In fact I don't know that I can find a word that could not be construed in some way to imply I am impugning the Law. So instead let me ask the question in a different way.

In asking why was the new covenant necessary, I am then asking what did the Old Covenant and the Letter of the Law fail to deliver upon?

There is a very simple answer to this question. All you have to do is stop reacting to the impulse to resist the thought, and then consider what Paul has told you about the law.

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you say the sin nature is dead, you're also saying we don't sin anymore.

I mean it exactly the way Paul means it. And he definitely does not mean we don't sin anymore.

The analogy of master/slave, husband/wife is his, not mine. We have a new master/husband now. The old one told us to sin. The new one tells us to do right. We don't have to listen to the old one anymore because we don't belong to the old husband/master anymore that he somehow has power over us to make us sin.The better you and I understand this, the more obedient to Jesus we will be. That's Paul's point in the chapter under discussion. The authority of the law to act like a legal marriage certificate to enforce a marital relationship with our sin nature has ended. We are free to be married to and obey a NEW husband--Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

There is no attempt at splitting the Word of God on my part. That is the resistance to the truth that you so often talk about revealing in what appears to be an unwillingness to answer a simple question. Hebrews 8 used the word fault in relation to the old covenant and the necessity of the new covenant:

You are welcome to clarify the two questions posed.

A. Is the Word of God faulty?

B. Does "them" in the Hebrews 8 citing referring to "finding fault with them" mean "them, the people" or "them, the covenant." Obviously applying usage "them" can not refer to fault of the covenant but with the people.

I ask why then was the new covenant necessary? But from you quotes above, it is obvious to me that you have only been able to see the word fault in its usage as a cause of blame, but that is not what I am suggesting. So lets not use the word fault then so that it is not misleading. I could use the word flawed, but then you might assume I was saying the word of God is flawed, so that word obviously won't work. In fact I don't know that I can find a word that could not be construed in some way to imply I am impugning the Law. So instead let me ask the question in a different way.

Even using the word 'flawed' when connected with "them" it would still refer to the people.

In asking why was the new covenant necessary, I am then asking what did the Old Covenant and the Letter of the Law fail to deliver upon?

The Word of God didn't fail. It did and does exactly what it was/is supposed to do.

There is a very simple answer to this question. All you have to do is stop reacting to the impulse to resist the thought, and then consider what Paul has told you about the law.
.

Getting at what that might be in another person's head can be a difficult undertaking, particularly if they've staked out theology positions on a faulty premise, such as God's Word being ineffective or the problem and they land in the place of denying it.

So perhaps you can shoot your version out on how that might be?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I ask why then was the new covenant necessary?

It had no power to end sin in a person, only power to point it out:

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us..." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB)

It was weak to deal with the faults of people. Christ is a New Covenant that is not weak to deal with the faults of the people.

38“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:38-39 NASB)

 

[smaller]

I mean it exactly the way Paul means it. And he definitely does not mean we don't sin anymore.

The analogy of master/slave, husband/wife is his, not mine. We have a new master/husband now. The old one told us to sin. The new one tells us to do right. We don't have to listen to the old one anymore because we don't belong to the old husband/master anymore that he somehow has power over us to make us sin.The better you and I understand this, the more obedient to Jesus we will be. That's Paul's point in the chapter under discussion. The authority of the law to act like a legal marriage certificate to enforce a marital relationship with our sin nature has ended. We are free to be married to and obey a NEW husband--Jesus Christ.

Paul ended his discourse re: marriage in 2 distinctions in Romans 7:

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul never ceased considering the body dead because of sin. This is the death referenced earlier in the chapter:

3 but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

The dead husband is our own flesh, with the associated lusts and temptations thereof/therein. These remain under the exposure and condemnation of the law that ultimately results in the "real" death of our flesh body.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.

The mistake is to think he's saying we have no choice but to serve the law of sin with the flesh as if we are still slaves to the sin nature. What he's saying is when we walk in the flesh we serve the law of sin and death. When we walk in the mind of Christ we serve the law of God.

Since the authority of the law to arouse sin in us and make us follow sin is broken in Christ we don't HAVE to serve old husband/master sin nature anymore. If we do, it's because we lack faith and conviction and revelation in the truth that we don't have to. And I'm confident that we'll spend our entire lifetime growing up into that faith. But it's all about progress, not perfection. Progress according to what God expects of us based on the level of grace we are responsible for at any given time.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons..." (Romans 8:12-15 NASB)

 

[smaller]

The mistake is to think he's saying we have no choice but to serve the law of sin with the flesh as if we are still slaves to the sin nature. What he's saying is when we walk in the flesh we serve the law of sin and death. When we walk in the mind of Christ we serve the law of God.

The flesh remains a subservient slave to the law in adversity to the law. That's why we consider it dead til it's a reality.

And fwiw, no one is in a state of sinlessness to start with. The notion that sin forces itself on us or not is a moot point. We can't say we "have" no sin to begin with.

Since the authority of the law to arouse sin in us and make us follow sin is broken in Christ we don't HAVE to serve old husband/master sin nature anymore.

Scripture shows us how to differentiate. Sin indwelling the flesh operates in opposition to the law regardless of our actions to the contrary. Every last one of us retains this contrariness of the flesh, post salvation. Gal. 5:17. And the contrary action is against the Spirit. Most try to cover up the obvious when there is no covering. That's one of the traps set in the scripture. Indwelling sin tends to turn believers into lying hypocrites regarding this matter rather than speaking truthfully about this contrary/against the Spirit condition of the flesh and they seek to justify the entirety of themselves currently and ignore the obvious.

When we are not honest in this confrontation with the contrary/against the Spirit fact, we are subsumed to the deceptions of indwelling sin. The Law is a reminder for us of this reality.

 

[smaller]

The pride of sin indwelling the flesh always wants and desires to see the "whole" of itself with rosy glasses. It can not take the condemnation that the law sheds upon it. It resists that condemnation and the truth of these matters. And in the process becomes even more sinful. Paul understood these principles. The Word also makes sin grow in adversity. That's "how" Paul derived his sight of himself in 1 Tim. 1:15. It was not by accident. The Sun shines on both good and evil. Both grow, in different/opposing directions. This is the same principle of allegory that Jesus deployed here:

Matthew 13:29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

The wheat has no say so about what happens with the tare that grows in adversity by the Light of The Word. There are two separate plants growing in the same ground, which is our body.

 

[Chopper]

I believe that Jethro suggested that a new thread be started to continue this discussion. I won't comment further in respect to Jethro. If you wish JLB, start that thread. I might or might not participate.

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean it exactly the way Paul means it. And he definitely does not mean we don't sin anymore.

The analogy of master/slave, husband/wife is his, not mine. We have a new master/husband now. The old one told us to sin. The new one tells us to do right. We don't have to listen to the old one anymore because we don't belong to the old husband/master anymore that he somehow has power over us to make us sin.The better you and I understand this, the more obedient to Jesus we will be. That's Paul's point in the chapter under discussion. The authority of the law to act like a legal marriage certificate to enforce a marital relationship with our sin nature has ended. We are free to be married to and obey a NEW husband--Jesus Christ.

Jethro,

If you agree that Paul does NOT mean that we don't sin anymore, that means we still sin. Then tell me this:

What is it that makes us sin??

There's a difference in the two terms you bring up and this is causing the problem, in my opinion.
1. The sin nature is dead.
2. The power of the sin nature is dead.

Do you see a difference in these two statements?
I agree with you when you say that the power of the sin nature is dead.
I cannot agree that the sin nature is dead.

If the sin nature itself is dead, what is it that makes us sin?

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. The sin nature is dead.
2. The power of the sin nature is dead.

Do you see a difference in these two statements?

In the context of Paul's discourse, they are one and the same

If the sin nature itself is dead, what is it that makes us sin?

Our stupid, fearful, foolish, ignorant, perhaps even arrogant, submission to it. An obedience we no longer have to cave into because we are no longer under the authority and power of the law to arouse and enforce our slavery to that sin. Sin's power has been removed as the hook by which the law can arouse our obedience to that sin. We are no longer under the law in that sense.

"...consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 17...thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh."

(Romans 6:11-14, 17-19 NASB)

 

[GodsGrace]

Jethro,

Here's our exchange:
Wondering:
If the sin nature itself is dead, what is it that makes us sin?

Jethro:
Our stupid, fearful, foolish, ignorant, perhaps even arrogant, submission to it.

Our stupid, fearful, foolish, ignorant, perhaps even arrogant submission
to it...

SUBMISSION TO WHAT??

Wondering