ezrider
Member
So now your saying there is another way? There is more than one way? I thought Jesus was the way, the only way.
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Bible Study The authority of the law: Romans 7
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
So now your saying there is another way? There is more than one way? I thought Jesus was the way, the only way.
Chopper
Member
Yes, you have stated that the Jews were married to themselves, and I stated that they were married to the Lord.
Here are my scriptures.
For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; Isaiah 54:5
not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:32
Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. Jeremiah 3:8
Maybe you or Jocor could post some scriptures from the old testament, whereby it says Israel was married to themselves and not the Lord?
Since this is a bible study. :yes
Jocor has no scripture in His post.
JLB
JLB, I presume that you're still hanging on a false belief that "Christ was YHWH". I believe that Scripture identifies who was married to Israel, and it wasn't Jesus (Yeshua). it was Jehovah. You sited Isaiah 54:5, lets look....
Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker (plural, Elohim) is thine husband (plural, Elohim); the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer (Kinsman) the Holy One (singular) of Israel; The God (plural, Elohim) of the whole earth shall he be called.
I don't see Christ here except in the plural Name of Elohim. Oh I know that there are folk who don't believe that Elohim is plural, they're welcome to their opinion.
You also sited Jeremiah 31: 32. Lets look at that....
Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD (Jehovah)."
Jehovah is not the Christ!....Just my thoughts.
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smaller
Member
The Word of God, in Law(s) can not logically or remotely possibly be against The Word of God in the New Testament.
The Words of God in Law(s) were spoken by the Spirit of Christ, The Word, who spoke them to start with.
The Spirit of Christ is not an can not be against His Own Words. That is a completely nonsensical notion.
smaller
Member
And I would hope that you understand dividing Jesus from God (Jehovah) is a basic faulty/false posture.
They are not different Gods.
Chopper
Member
Thank you for your reply. Of course I know the difference. In my Scripture quotes I included reference to Elohim the plural trinity Name for God.
smaller
Member
Then you understand that dividing Jesus from God of the O.T. is impossible?
Jethro Bodine
Member
We know that Jesus is the only way to be made righteous. But the Israelites erroneously thought they could become righteous through the law (Romans 10:3-4 NASB), so there is 'another' way only in that sense, the way of the law to become righteous (which is really no way at all). This other way that the world needed to know about is the only true way to righteousness--faith in Jesus Christ and the removal of unrighteousness through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness. As Paul says, the Israelites did not know about this 'other' way to be righteous:
"3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own (by keeping the law), they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God (that comes by faith). 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:3 NASB parenthesis mine)
ezrider
Member
"Only in that sense" Yes, I agree with you in that aspect. As Jesus said unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees....
Do you suppose in any way that the righteousness they sought through the works of the law in any way might have blinded them to the righteousness of Christ and that is why the the righteousness of Christ is revealed apart from the law? Not by the works of the law, but through Faith in Jesus Christ.
Chopper
Member
I know where you're going with this and I'm not interested.
Are you saying you don't believe Israel was married to the Lord, in the Old Testament?
- Here are the scriptures that state Israel was married to the Lord God.
For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; Isaiah 54:5
not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.Jeremiah 31:32
Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. Jeremiah 3:8
- This same Lord God, who Israel was married to, will come with the saints on the Day of the Lord, and His feet will stand on the mount of Olives.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. Zechariah 14:4
Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I suppose so. The deceit being that if one is satisfied that they are righteous because they cleaned the outside of the cup according to the law (tithes, offerings, etc.) they may not see that they have not cleaned the inside of the cup according to the law (honesty, self-self control, etc.). The Israelites, especially the Pharisees, seem to have had the former down pat, but did not do the latter.
This being true, I don't think this is the point Paul is addressing when he said, "4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4 NASB). His point is, believing in Christ is the end of the way of thinking that the law is how one is declared righteous. The law is actually very useful in leading one to this truth. The law reveals our unrighteousness by showing us what the standard of righteousness is that we must have.
The righteousness that must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees is not necessarily a righteousness not revealed in the law (much of the righteousness Jesus said we must have is in fact in the law). It is a righteousness, most of which is taught in the law, that the Pharisees, being hypocrites, simply did not have. IOW, the righteousness of the Pharisees is not an inferior righteousness because it is the righteousness taught in the law, but is inferior because it is hypocritical and incomplete according to the law.
th1b.taylor
Member
smaller
Member
You'll have to pardon me for thinking you were solid on basics.
Chopper
Member
Ok Smaller, I do want to see if there is something missing in my knowledge of the Godhead so please open a new thread on whatever you want to call it and I'll participate. There is safety in numbers and I'd like to see what others have to say.
smaller
Member
I referred to the matter in regards to this thread.
Why?
Because God through the Spirit of Christ wrote the Words of God in the O.T. inclusive of the Words of Law(s).
So, when some observe that Jehovah was not Jesus, essentially making a different God/god writing the O.T. laws, it's usually a preamble to more interesting developments to come.
New thread? Nah. Just an observation on the Laws of God and who wrote them. They are in fact from Jesus.
Acts 7:
44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
1 Peter 1:10-11 corroborates the same matter.
smaller
Member
You inserted a comment relative to the matter of Law and it's authority. So did I, in counter to that comment, that is relevant to the thread topic.
Let's leave it at that.
Chopper
Member
I will honor your request....I have started a new thread in the Bible Study forum titled, "Who of the Godhead Did What In The Old Covenant (Testament)?" I'd be interested in what you have to say. Any Scripture to support your assertion?
smaller
Member
I've made this observation here and will note it again in your thread.
Jesus Is The Word of God. IF the Law is The Word of God, (it is) then that Word is every bit of God in Christ Jesus.
The best I have been able to see in this matter is that when and where there is an expression of God, The Father, either in "creation" or in Word Expression, it is through God's Image, His Son, His Expression, Jesus. Yet as we know, they are ONE, always have been, always will be. And all such expression is via the Holy Spirit of God Himself. It is impossible to divide what is One.
We might get into some trouble if we say God (what? The Father? The Holy Spirit?) ONLY spoke the Word of the O.T. Laws, but NOT Jesus. That doesn't hold water. Because it divides Jesus away from the Word of God. And it is Jesus who IS The Word of God.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
This immutably links Jesus, The Word of God, to every Word of God of the O.T.
So when we speak of the Authority of the Law, we can not take Jesus, The Word, away from those Words of Gods Law(s). He was The Word, speaking same.
ezrider
Member
The Lord gave unto Adam one command. Of all the trees in the Garden you may eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, or you shall surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
But the serpent said you shall not die, but your eyes shall opened and you shall be as gods knowing good and evil
Genesis 3:4-6
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The Law gives us the knowledge of good and evil. The Law gives us the knowledge is sin. We know the sting of sin is death, and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor 15:56).
Romans 7:9-11
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Do you say the same thing of the Law as the women did of the tree of knowledge, that it is a tree good for food, and it is pleasant to the eyes, that it is a tree to be desired to make one wise? Does the knowledge of the Law open your eyes to sin?
What happened to Adam and Eve when their eyes were opened to the knowledge of their sin? They took to themselves a covering to hide from the presence of the Lord.
Genesis 3:7-8
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
Does the knowledge of sin cause you to hide from the presence of the Lord, do you seek a covering for your sins?
1 Corinthians 15:54-57
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 25:6-8
And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people
a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees,
of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
And he will destroy in this mountain
the face of the covering cast over all people,
and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory;
and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces;
and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth:
for the Lord hath spoken it.