THE BAPTISM, with, of, or in, THE HOLY SPIRIT

[stovebolts]

In other words, does baptism have to be an either or, or can it encompass a bigger picture?

I am not limiting anything. I am simply quoting scripture, StoveBolts.

Hi John.

We're straying a little bit away from my first question.

Peter said: Acts 2:38 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter makes it clear to those who were responsible for sending Jesus to the cross.
1. Repent. In other words, admit that they were wrong in having Jesus crucified and proclaiming (as they had already done) that Jesus was the Christ.
2. Be Baptised for the forgiveness of sins.
3. This would result in the promise, thus an assurance that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, there are other passages in Acts, such as the household of Cornelius where they received the Holy Spirit and then Peter says, Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

So we see this connection between water baptism and the promise to those who have not received the Holy Spirit as an assurance that by way of repentance and baptism, they are assured the Holy Spirit.

Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Again, we see this connection between baptism and the death of Christ. We see this picture of dying with Jesus as we are being put under the water. Buried with Jesus as we are fully immersed into the water and raised with Jesus as we are lifted out of the water. If we are crucified and raised in Christ through Baptism as Paul says, then isn't that like being born again?

Now then, I do know that there are people who demand that salvation is only for those who are baptized, and for them, I think they have a lot of issues to sort through. But that is not my concern. Still, others believe that baptism is just a dry ritual, and for them I'd say that they are probably right in many cases. But.... I'd also say that there is another view.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

Of course, the "Water" spoken about above is the water in Noah's day that fully immersed the earth. Does the water save you? Absolutely not but God did use water in Noah's day to save him so we do have a connection by way of example. Regardless, what we can get out of this verse as it pertains to what I'm trying to articulate, is that when one goes into the baptismal waters, they must have a clear conscience. Perhaps like those who were at one time against Jesus, they must repent.. change their ways, change their thoughts. Change their lifestyles. Maybe, some who come to the baptismal waters come with a heavy conscience because they have done wrong and their hearts are pricked. They are assured that all of their sins are forgiven and they are assured that they will receive the Holy Spirit.

This, in part I believe is a healthy and rounded view of Baptism. It does not limit the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once can receive the Holy Spirit before being baptized like the household of Cornelius and later be baptized, or one can come to the waters and receive the Holy Spirit as they experience the death, burial and resurection of our Lord. Still, others may receive the Holy Spirit after they have been baptized.

I'd like to look at John 3:5-8
The greek word for Spirit is pneuma

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the pneuma. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the pneuma gives birth to pneuma. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The pneuma blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the pneuma.

 

[Chopper]

Thread moved to the Ye Olde Aplogetics forum

Thank you StoveBolts, good move! By the way, awsome car

 

[Chopper]

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the pneuma gives birth to pneuma.

Wow, there is nothing that I would disagree with in your post. I know of a couple that will though....Question, There are several interpretations on this verse in John three. Some say that "born of water" means a human birth, others say water baptism. You said born of Spirit is pneuma. Could you expand on that or should I ask in a different forum?

 

[Brother Mike]

The problem here is not with the bible being called a liar, but rather with the idea that the bible writers were applying these words to us as opposed to those of Jesus' generation. There's only a problem with the Bible when we read ourselves into those promises. Apply the words to the 'last day' audience and we have no such problems.

The eternal word never Changes, this is where I see things your not looking at here. God put it in the Word, it's for everyone, not just a select few or just those places we want to believe.

There is more to being a believer besides getting dunked in water. Life starts there and all things are new, so there is also the Holy Spirit to seek, and the way God operates from that point on. We just don't get saved and wait around to zip to heaven or something.

We are not trying to mislead you here, but help.

Mike.

 

[stovebolts]

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the pneuma gives birth to pneuma.

Wow, there is nothing that I would disagree with in your post. I know of a couple that will though....Question, There are several interpretations on this verse in John three. Some say that "born of water" means a human birth, others say water baptism. You said born of Spirit is pneuma. Could you expand on that or should I ask in a different forum?

I'll step out on a limb... knowing I'll be away until probably Monday.

Short and sweet. John writes with a style known as first mention. When you read something from John that strikes a cord with the Jews, you look back in the Bible to where that first word is used.

Example: For God so loved the world... The first place we find the word Love is when Abram go to offer his only son, whom he loved. Do a little study and you will see that there is a connection between Jesus and Isaac / God and Abraham. The promise came through Isaac, as it came through Jesus (generically speaking)

Another easy example: When Mary goes to the tomb, who is the first person she thinks she encounters? Right, a Gardner. And where do you find a Garden? That's right, and Paul writes that Jesus was the second Adam.

Spirit.. Where do we see this word for the first time? Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

So we see both Water and Spirit. Later in the early chapters of Genesis, we see this Hebrew word for Spirit being translated as wind, just as Jesus does in John 3. In Jewish thought, the earth is alive with God's spirit (Romans 8) and it's almost synonymous at times with the wind and the act of breathing.

Sorry this is so off the cuff... I'm late.

Enjoy your weekend.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The eternal word never Changes,

What is this "eternal unchanging word" you speak of? Surely it is not the Bible, a compilation of writings that underwent changes via addition for hundreds, if not over a 1000 years. It was changed the NT was added to the OT for instance.
I never meant to imply that it's message changes. I also don't see a reason to believe its audience changed to us. Projecting ourselves into it does more to change its actual message(s) than anything I've said.

God put it in the Word, it's for everyone, not just a select few or just those places we want to believe.

So says you or God? I see no scriptural evidence to support the underlying message your comment implies and that is that all promises were meant for all people.

 

[Brother Mike]

So says you or God? I see no scriptural evidence to support the underlying message your comment implies and that is that all promises were meant for all people.

We are on page 6 here. Do I have to go over "ALL" those scriptures again??

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If God is your father (And He is) then this means you. The condition to receive the Holy Spirit is that God be your father through the adoption. We meet that condition first.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(Mar 16:16-17)

Do you believe in the name of Jesus? If so, do you speak with new tongues? If not, then you met the first condition and need to seek to achieve the 2nd condition because it's for you also.

Act_2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Those that hear the word, believe what happens?

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

We see that getting saved by Water baptism is not the same of getting baptized by the Holy Spirit. In fact it's possible to get filled with the Spirit of God before getting dunked in water. That was my case as I got dunked in water 2 years after confessing the Lord Jesus and speaking in tongues.

Now go after what is yours!!!

Mike.

 

[JLB]

The New Covenant is between God and Israel.

Do you believe the New Covenant is for Gentiles?


JLB

 

[ezra]

There are volumes written about this subject accompanied with a lot of confusion. Having studied and participated in both Baptist and Pentecostal doctrines, the following is what I feel is a biblical position between both of them. Both views have truth and error, and this doctrinal statement takes the biblical, and refuses their traditions that I find is in error. I personally feel that Satan has been quite successful in hiding and distorting biblical truth concerning the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Lets consider John 20:22 as a springboard into this subject. The disciples would have to be considered biblically saved at this point but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus remedies this prior to His ascension by "breathing on them and said receive the Holy Spirit". Church doctrine overlooks this important passage because they don't see two separate baptism's, one at Salvation and another at Pentecost. In Acts chapter 2 Jesus was making sure that prior to His ascension the disciples would be saved, sealed and filled with the Holy Spirit, a type of what happens to us at the moment of Salvation. Then later, the baptism in the Holy Spirit followed. Traditional Baptist's refuse a second baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Notice that in Acts 1:5 Jesus says "for John baptized with (better translated Gk ev or in water), but in a few days you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit". The moment I was saved I was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is when the Holy Spirit came into me to seal and fill me. At the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when I go in the Holy Spirit for power to minister. You might say it is when I go into the ministry or purpose of the Holy Spirit, see 1 Cor. 12 for some of His ministry gifts. So we have a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit. We go in the water and in the Holy Spirit. The Bible presents two separate baptism after salvation. Has Satan deceived most of the Church of Jesus Christ in that they have discounted this second baptism and placed the emphasis on the first and thus robbed the Church of the power of the Holy Spirit as it was designed to flow from the Holy Spirit through the believer to our neighbor? YOU BET!

The question that remains is "How did Satan do it? I believe he did it through man made traditions! Matthew 15:9 says "They worship Me in vain, their teachings (doctrines) are but the rules (or traditions) taught by men".

Now lets consider what the baptism in the Holy Spirit is for. Acts 1:8 holds the answer. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (notice not in you) He is already in you "and you will be witnesses...." It's clear! The result of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is power!! Power to be bold, power to heal, power to cast out demons, power to power to interpret Scriptures Power to be involved in miracles etc. If refused by dumb traditions, NO POWER! Remember, Jesus commanded these disciples to tarry or wait in Jerusalem for the gift the Father promised, Acts 1:4. The question each of us must answer is "am I refusing this gift of the Father?" If the disciples had refused to wait or refused in some way the baptism in the Holy Spirit, then the result would have been doing the work of God in their own power or might, not in the power of the Holy Spirit, much like the anemic church of today....Sad! Sad!

I suppose much more could be said about this subject but I wanted to present a short but accurate biblical statement of what I feel is a drastic and sad robbery of Holy Spirit power to the Church of Jesus Christ of which I remain a faithful witness to. May God Himself bless this statement.

we are baptized by the spirit into the body of Christ the moment we are saved 1 Corinthians 12:13

1 Corinthians 12:13.


For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. yes the gifts of the spirit are for us today...

 

[JLB]

There are volumes written about this subject accompanied with a lot of confusion. Having studied and participated in both Baptist and Pentecostal doctrines, the following is what I feel is a biblical position between both of them. Both views have truth and error, and this doctrinal statement takes the biblical, and refuses their traditions that I find is in error. I personally feel that Satan has been quite successful in hiding and distorting biblical truth concerning the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Lets consider John 20:22 as a springboard into this subject. The disciples would have to be considered biblically saved at this point but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus remedies this prior to His ascension by "breathing on them and said receive the Holy Spirit". Church doctrine overlooks this important passage because they don't see two separate baptism's, one at Salvation and another at Pentecost. In Acts chapter 2 Jesus was making sure that prior to His ascension the disciples would be saved, sealed and filled with the Holy Spirit, a type of what happens to us at the moment of Salvation. Then later, the baptism in the Holy Spirit followed. Traditional Baptist's refuse a second baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Notice that in Acts 1:5 Jesus says "for John baptized with (better translated Gk ev or in water), but in a few days you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit". The moment I was saved I was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is when the Holy Spirit came into me to seal and fill me. At the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when I go in the Holy Spirit for power to minister. You might say it is when I go into the ministry or purpose of the Holy Spirit, see 1 Cor. 12 for some of His ministry gifts. So we have a baptism in water and a baptism in the Holy Spirit. We go in the water and in the Holy Spirit. The Bible presents two separate baptism after salvation. Has Satan deceived most of the Church of Jesus Christ in that they have discounted this second baptism and placed the emphasis on the first and thus robbed the Church of the power of the Holy Spirit as it was designed to flow from the Holy Spirit through the believer to our neighbor? YOU BET!

The question that remains is "How did Satan do it? I believe he did it through man made traditions! Matthew 15:9 says "They worship Me in vain, their teachings (doctrines) are but the rules (or traditions) taught by men".

Now lets consider what the baptism in the Holy Spirit is for. Acts 1:8 holds the answer. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (notice not in you) He is already in you "and you will be witnesses...." It's clear! The result of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is power!! Power to be bold, power to heal, power to cast out demons, power to power to interpret Scriptures Power to be involved in miracles etc. If refused by dumb traditions, NO POWER! Remember, Jesus commanded these disciples to tarry or wait in Jerusalem for the gift the Father promised, Acts 1:4. The question each of us must answer is "am I refusing this gift of the Father?" If the disciples had refused to wait or refused in some way the baptism in the Holy Spirit, then the result would have been doing the work of God in their own power or might, not in the power of the Holy Spirit, much like the anemic church of today....Sad! Sad!

I suppose much more could be said about this subject but I wanted to present a short but accurate biblical statement of what I feel is a drastic and sad robbery of Holy Spirit power to the Church of Jesus Christ of which I remain a faithful witness to. May God Himself bless this statement.

we are baptized by the spirit into the body of Christ the moment we are saved 1 Corinthians 12:13

1 Corinthians 12:13.


For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. yes the gifts of the spirit are for us today...

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

The "moment you are saved" is not in this scripture.

Here is the key to being Baptized into one body...
... and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Which is why Paul asked this question -

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19:2

How can someone drink of the Holy Spirit if they themselves have not received the Holy Spirit?

Here is an example of these people receiving the Holy Spirit -

And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:6

Here is another -

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Acts 10:44-47

another example -

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4


JLB

 

[Mike W]

Not under the new covenant?? 1 Cor. 11:23-26. We have NT disciples, Jesus, and the new covenant. Thanks but I'll stay with the Church age being in the new covenant.

Hi Chopper
There are several reasons why we are not under the New Covenant or ANY covenant.
1 Cor. 11:20 which is right before what you quoted says when they come together it is NOT for the Lord's Supper. That being said the New Covenant is prophesied in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 31:31-34. Notice whom God says the New Covenant will be made with. Israel and Judah. Since the New Covenant was prophesied in the Old Testament than it could NOT be part of the mystery Gospel of Grace. This is clearly stated in Ephesians 3:9 and many other of the Apostle Paul's letters. The New Covenant is still on hold until the Dispensation of grace is over. Notice in Hebrews (written to the Jews and will be happening AFTER the rapture) that the New Covenant is quite different than what Paul taught in the mystery Gospel. Hebrews 8: 8-12. In the New Covenant which will take place at the Second Coming of Christ, they will no longer have to study. They will not need teachers anymore where in the Gospel of Grace Paul says to study and show thyself approved "rightly dividing the Word" 2 Timothy 2:15. I know this is something we have been taught by pastors and teachers everywhere but if someone will read the scripture and take God at His Word by "rightly dividing the scriptures" then that person will see that there are no contradictions and no verses that need to be "spiritualize" to fit someone's doctrine. Israel will inherit the earth after they go through a tribulation period and then they will receive their promised New Covenant. We as the Body of Christ will be raptured to rule with Christ in the heavenlies. We are promised heavenly home while Israel and the Jews are promised earthly rule and prieshood.

thanks
Mike W

 

[Mike W]

So how does that exclude us? You're being too legalistic. Are we not grafted into the vine? Is there not one body? Even if what you say is true (which I disagree with)...what makes you think that we're not in the last days?

Great thought provoking questions!!

I'd add this question as well; Where do we post-last day peoples fit into the plan of God according to the scriptures? That is the big question for us that can help us understand whether or not we are heirs according to the promise, as well as whether or not we are part of the body of Christ, and whether we live in the last days?

We were grafted in to the vine because Israel rejected the Messiah in unbelief. Romans 11:24 says that Israel will be grafted back into "their own tree". Romans 11:25 tells us that this is part of the "mystery" given to Paul. Israel would be blinded for a time. They will eventually be saved but at the time of the New Covenant Romans 11:27. Where we as the Body of Christ fit in is that we are in the Dispensation of Grace in which a person must only believe in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved. NO WORKS involved. Romans 4:5. I believe we are living in a time where the rapture could take place at any moment. Then the LAST DAYS will begin once we are in the heavens with Jesus.
thanks
Mike W

 

[Mike W]

Do you believe the New Covenant is for Gentiles?


JLB

I believe the New Covenant is between God and Israel. God called out the Nation Israel when He called Abraham. All throughout the Old Testament God promised Israel that they would be a Nation of priest to bring the Gentiles to salvation. If a gentile was to be saved in the Old Covenant he had to go through the nation Israel. He had to be circumcised and become a part of the Jewish religion. When Jesus came he came to the house of Israel. He came to prepare the nation for the Kingdom. The Kingdom was offered in the first part of Acts but they rejected it at the stoning of Stephen. God put the Kingdom plans on hold and called Paul to reach the Gentiles in a new Dispensation of Grace. This was not prophesied about as it was "hid" in God from all others until it was revealed to Paul. All the confusion people have about water baptism comes because they are mixing Israel plan with our plan. Peter and the original Apostles were called to reach the nation Israel first and then the gentiles could be reached. When they rejected the Messiah than God put on hold that program which is the New Covenant. He called Paul to be our messenger and we are to follow what God revealed to Paul which IS NOT water baptism. No where does it say water baptism is for the Body of Christ. Some say you need water baptism for salvation and some say you need it to prove you have faith. Either way is wrong and it confuses the people who are saved and the ones who are not. 1 Corinthians 1:17. Paul WAS NOT sent to baptize. That was revealed to Paul AFTER he had baptized some and they were probably either Jews or Jewish converts. Either way while Peter and the other 11 were sent to baptize Paul was NOT sent to Baptize. Since Paul is OUR messenger today than we are to follow what God revealed to Paul.

thanks
Mike W

 

[JLB]

Not under the new covenant?? 1 Cor. 11:23-26. We have NT disciples, Jesus, and the new covenant. Thanks but I'll stay with the Church age being in the new covenant.

Hi Chopper
There are several reasons why we are not under the New Covenant or ANY covenant.
1 Cor. 11:20 which is right before what you quoted says when they come together it is NOT for the Lord's Supper. That being said the New Covenant is prophesied in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 31:31-34. Notice whom God says the New Covenant will be made with. Israel and Judah. Since the New Covenant was prophesied in the Old Testament than it could NOT be part of the mystery Gospel of Grace. This is clearly stated in Ephesians 3:9 and many other of the Apostle Paul's letters. The New Covenant is still on hold until the Dispensation of grace is over. Notice in Hebrews (written to the Jews and will be happening AFTER the rapture) that the New Covenant is quite different than what Paul taught in the mystery Gospel. Hebrews 8: 8-12. In the New Covenant which will take place at the Second Coming of Christ, they will no longer have to study. They will not need teachers anymore where in the Gospel of Grace Paul says to study and show thyself approved "rightly dividing the Word" 2 Timothy 2:15. I know this is something we have been taught by pastors and teachers everywhere but if someone will read the scripture and take God at His Word by "rightly dividing the scriptures" then that person will see that there are no contradictions and no verses that need to be "spiritualize" to fit someone's doctrine. Israel will inherit the earth after they go through a tribulation period and then they will receive their promised New Covenant. We as the Body of Christ will be raptured to rule with Christ in the heavenlies. We are promised heavenly home while Israel and the Jews are promised earthly rule and prieshood.

thanks
Mike W

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:1-4

The Covenant that The Lord made with Abraham has always include Gentiles.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

And again -

Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1-6

Baptism is for both Jew and Gentile -

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" [B]Acts 10:44-47[/B]

Here we see Gentiles receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism in water.

...just as we have, is the proof.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

when they come together it is NOT for the Lord's Supper.

Of course it was not the Lord's Supper. Paul is saying that those believers were not coming for the sole purpose of celebrating the Lord's Supper. They were coming to show their superiority in their fancy food and lording it over poor people who had very little. They stuffed themselves and got drunk and the poor had little to eat or drink. Paul issued warnings to everyone who treats the Lord's Supper with such disdain.

Of course Israel will have a new covenant. The mystery that the Scriptures speak about is that Gentiles will be considered equal or no distinction between the two, Gentiles & Israel. See Gal. 3:28. The age of grace or Church age started potentially with the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and had its reality of function at Pentecost. The new Covenant started with Jesus shedding His own life blood. That is when Jesus said a new Covenant was established. See Matt. 26:26-29 Jesus plainly says that this is "My blood of the Covenant". (some manuscripts add new)

Israel had it's Covenant which was established with Abraham in Gen. 17. It was the Covenant of circumcision. God calls it an everlasting Covenant.

So we have an "Old Covenant" and a "New Covenant".

In our new Covenant, we have both Jews and Gentiles with no difference between them, thus says Gal. 3:28. The Great tribulation or "Jacobs Trouble" is to bring unbelieving Israel to it's knees in order to recognize Jesus as the Christ and their Messiah.

It seems to me that sufficient NT Scripture is absolutely clear as to when the New Covenant had it beginning. The Jew must repent of refusing Jesus as their Messiah. Gentiles must repent of refusing Jesus as their Savior. Both became children of God under the New Covenant. Later, after the great tribulation, Israel comes into the New Covenant.

I see no point in arguing your point that we are not under any Covenant. Scripture is not saying that. I would suggest that you concentrate on NT doctrine. Personally I think that it is an insult to the Blood of the New Covenant and the work of God to establish the Covenant that Jesus Christ gave His life blood to establish.

This is my last statement on the New Covenant for I see no argument here. I think I have defended this doctrine.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: THE BAPTISM of Joy, transforming water into wine, the fruit of the earth.

Did anyone watch that video about Empowering of the Spirit?

I have watched this, yes. Greetings Edward and thread. Pardon as I take a breath for I may speak should the Lord give it to me to do so. If so, it will be personal. You have my word, but I may not say that you have nothing more than my word on the things that are in my heart to say here.

For now? The wait is upon me. Enter this waiting and seeking for it is only by our agreement as touching that we too may be touched.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Mike W]

Not under the new covenant?? 1 Cor. 11:23-26. We have NT disciples, Jesus, and the new covenant. Thanks but I'll stay with the Church age being in the new covenant.

Hi Chopper
There are several reasons why we are not under the New Covenant or ANY covenant.
1 Cor. 11:20 which is right before what you quoted says when they come together it is NOT for the Lord's Supper. That being said the New Covenant is prophesied in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 31:31-34. Notice whom God says the New Covenant will be made with. Israel and Judah. Since the New Covenant was prophesied in the Old Testament than it could NOT be part of the mystery Gospel of Grace. This is clearly stated in Ephesians 3:9 and many other of the Apostle Paul's letters. The New Covenant is still on hold until the Dispensation of grace is over. Notice in Hebrews (written to the Jews and will be happening AFTER the rapture) that the New Covenant is quite different than what Paul taught in the mystery Gospel. Hebrews 8: 8-12. In the New Covenant which will take place at the Second Coming of Christ, they will no longer have to study. They will not need teachers anymore where in the Gospel of Grace Paul says to study and show thyself approved "rightly dividing the Word" 2 Timothy 2:15. I know this is something we have been taught by pastors and teachers everywhere but if someone will read the scripture and take God at His Word by "rightly dividing the scriptures" then that person will see that there are no contradictions and no verses that need to be "spiritualize" to fit someone's doctrine. Israel will inherit the earth after they go through a tribulation period and then they will receive their promised New Covenant. We as the Body of Christ will be raptured to rule with Christ in the heavenlies. We are promised heavenly home while Israel and the Jews are promised earthly rule and prieshood.

thanks
Mike W

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:1-4

The Covenant that The Lord made with Abraham has always include Gentiles.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

And again -

Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1-6

Baptism is for both Jew and Gentile -

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" [B]Acts 10:44-47[/B]

Here we see Gentiles receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism in water.

...just as we have, is the proof.


JLB

I am sorry you misunderstood my intention. I am not here to argue but to spread the Good News about the Gospel of Grace given to OUR Apostle Paul. The problem is most people have been imbedded with the message that the New Covenant started at the cross or at Pentecost. That may very well be so but the New Covenant which was being brought in by the Gospel of the Kingdom has been put on hold for a while until the Dispensation of Grace is finished. I know that most people do not realize that there is a division in Acts where God put Israel program on hold and that God gave a new message to the Apostle Paul. But the one question you must ask is why was it against the Jewish law for Peter to go to eat with Gentiles? Peter went to Cornelius only because he had a vision from God. Cornelius was a God fearing man who followed the Jewish God. Yes Gentiles could be saved under the Old Covenant but had to become as a Jew. The nation Israel would be saved FIRST then the mass of Gentiles will follow because Israel will be the light. Cornelius was water baptized as he was saved under the Kingdom Gospel. Remember Peter and the others were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and that message was to repent(change your mind that Jesus is the Messiah) and be baptized for the remission of sins. Also this saving of Cornelius and his family set up the foundation of the meeting in Jerusalem where Paul came to explain his ministry to the ones in charge because of the problems with Jewish believers under the Kingdom Gospel were trying to put Paul's converts that were under the grace Gospel under the Jewish Gospel. They wanted Paul's believers to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses.

Anyway if you want to understand the Bible please divide it correctly. People use the division of Old Testament and New Testament but never see that there is a division in the New Testament. Paul is our messenger for today NOT the other Apostles.

Matthew through John The Gospel of the Kingdom. Looking for an earthly Kingdom with Jesus as ruler.
Acts 1-Acts 9 The Kingdom is at hand and being offered to the Jews first. Had the Jews not rejected Jesus as Messiah then all Israel would have been saved and become Priest to be a light to the Gentile nations.
Acts 9-Acts 28 the Transition period where the Gospel of the Kingdom would be put on hold and the Gospel of Grace dispensation would begin. Israel would be blinded and the message would be a FREE GIFT only having to believe to be saved. No water baptism for anyone. Even Paul stated once he had received revelation From God that he did not come to baptize. We are all now baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at the time we are saved. This is the one and only one baptism we have during this dispensation.
Romans - Philemon Our instructions from the Lord through our messenger Paul
Hebrews - Revelation The instructions for the ones living during the tribulation AFTER the rapture. God starts dealing again with Israel.

You may choose to believe in rightly dividing the Word or not but I tell you there is grave danger in preaching a different Gospel than what God expects for us to preach during this dispensation. Read Galatians and you will see what I mean.

Thanks and please do not take this as me trying to debate. My life changed when I finally understood how to study the Bible and not having to depend on someone else's opinion in trying to "spiritualizing" verses that seemed to contradict them selves.

Mike W

 

[Chopper]

but the New Covenant which was being brought in by the Gospel of the Kingdom has been put on hold for a while until the Dispensation of Grace is finished.

Scripture please.

 

[Mike W]

In our new Covenant, we have both Jews and Gentiles with no difference between them, thus says Gal. 3:28. The Great tribulation or "Jacobs Trouble" is to bring unbelieving Israel to it's knees in order to recognize Jesus as the Christ and their Messiah.

Hi Chopper
I am not arguing but just trying to shed some light on why water baptism has no place in this Dispensation of grace. I agree that there is a New Covenant. The verse you quoted in Galatian 3:28 is talking about the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is the new creature and the mystery Gospel that was hid from the Old Testament. Anyone whether Jew or Gentile could be and can be saved by this new mystery Gospel. The New Covenant was not a mystery as I have showed you scripture that it was prophesied in the Old Testament. From the beginning God called out the nation Israel to be priest in the Kingdom and then these priest would be a light to the Gentiles. Priest had to be water baptized as part of the law. The Gentiles are never called to be priest. During the 1000 reign of Christ Gentiles will come to Jerusalem each year by way of the Jewish priest. The Body of Christ goes up in the rapture before the 7 year period of Jacobs trouble.
The New Testament is not all for our doctrine but it is for our learning. A simple approach to understanding is by dividing it properly.
Matthew - John- written to the Jews preparing them for the Kingdom
Acts 1-Acts 7 The Kingdom being offered if they would repent and be water baptized
Acts 9-28 The Gospel of Kingdom being phased out and the Gospel of Grace being brought in called "mystery Gospel" , "Gospel of uncircumcision" "my Gospel"
Romans - Philemon Our instructions through our messenger Paul
Hebrews - Revelation picks back up after the rapture for the people living during the tribulation.

You do not have to respond to me. All I ask is that you look at what I say and verify it with God's Word. It will clear a lot of things up and make your Bible study more enjoyable.

thanks
Mike W

 

[Mike W]

Yes, let's see that scripture...

The scripture has been given. Hebrews 8:8-13. This is written AFTER the resurrection and says the New Covenant is still future. The writer says the covenant is between God and the house of Israel and the House of Judah. No where does he mention a covenant with the Gentiles here. This is because Gentiles are under the mystery revelation given to Paul. The Bible flows so smoothly when it is rightly divided. Please read the scripture in Hebrews and tell me what it says.

thanks
Mike W