THE BAPTISM, with, of, or in, THE HOLY SPIRIT

[JohnD]

Then Matthew 3:11 and Ephesians 4:5 are wrong.

In your quote of Matt. 3:11 I'm not sure what you're getting at. That verse depicts two baptism's. John says "I baptize you with water for repentance. That's one. He says Jesus is coming and He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. That's two.

In your quote of Eph. 4:5....In order to understand this verse, Eph. 4:5, it has to be viewed in context with the other verses. In verses 1-16 we are looking at the body of believers. The baptism spoken of here is strictly the baptism (water) that places us into the family of God, seals us, and assumes repentance. There is only one water baptism which accomplishes several functions, thus "one baptism".

Nope. In Matthew 3:11 one baptism that does not count and one that does count. John the water baptist defers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Ephesians 4 you proved my point. There is one baptism that counts. The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[gr8grace]

Hi JohnD, I think you are saying that there is only one baptism and this is for Salvation. Is this correct?

I know some Baptist Pastors that went.......... oooopsssss.......... boy did I understand wrong on that once they got filled with the Holy Spirit and started to speak in tongues. Some Baptist Pastors never even mention it to their congragation because of what their peers might say but they want to stay in there with the Spirit of power as it's better than no power.

Lots of threads on this have come up, we have the confused crowed of course but God is trying to get more to his people, and for those seeking and paying attention will find, those that already know everything and think they have all they are going to get will stay the same, no power.

My hope is to all that seek, Get filled with the Holy Spirit of Power and go do what God called you to do.

The indwelling or baptism of the Spirit does not distinguish one believer from another; it does not make one believer superior or inferior to another. It is a unifying factor in the Body of Christ.

Right........... There is being born by the Spirit, Saved, like the 12 Apostles who waited at Pentecost.

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

All saved, all had worked by faith in the commision of Jesus to do healing and cast out devils........ None yet anointed with Power like Jesus yet. They all operated by faith. All were saved and Baptized with Johns Baptism. All believed on Jesus. None filled with the Holy Spirit, but all born again by the Holy Spirit.

There is a Powerful witness though the Baptism of the Holy Spirit though, the anointing, the Power to do what Your called to do for God. It's power, and demonstration, not Jesus loves you pamphlets.

I plead that the ignorant learn and not talk anyone out of what God has for them. I think we can set a higher standard on at least one Christian forum out of how many?

Learn from those that know, not the ones who don't speak in tongues or operate regularly in the gifts.

You don't take the car to your hairdresser to get the engine worked on do you?

Blessings to all, keep seeking.

Mike.

Mike,

We are brothers and I believe we are saved and this is a "minor" in my opinion. But I believe that people who think they have the gift of tongues are hairdressers who think they are mechanics.

Bible doctrine and the word shows us that tongues were for the Nation of Israel and they ceased in 70 AD.......An earlier post:

I believe tongues ceased in 70 AD. I do not deny the reality of tongues today, I do deny the biblical validity of it though.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

Tongues, they.....plural will cease.

So if we know Gods purpose for tongues and the purpose has been fulfilled, they have ceased.

What was Gods purpose for tongues? To be a sign for unbelieving Jews that were in the 5th cycle of discipline from God.

1st cycle: Leviticus 26:16-17
2nd cycle: Leviticus 26:18-20
3rd cycle: Leviticus 26:21-22
4th cycle: Leviticus 26:23-26
5th cycle: Leviticus 26:27-38; amplified in Deuteronomy 28:49-67

Isaiah 28:11 Indeed, He [ God ] will speak to this [ specifies a specific group of people; remember the word “this” when you read and interpret 1 Corinthians 14:21 ] people [ Israel as a nation; not the church; not Christians, but Israel and Israel alone ] through stammering lips [ speech that when miraculously spoken by persons who had never learned the language make the speakers sound like drunkards ] and a foreign tongue [ all tongues were Gentile languages ],

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the Law it is written [ a reference to Isaiah 28:11 ], “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this [ the word “this” is the same word used in Isaiah 28:11 and is a reference to Israel as a nation; not the church; not Christians, but Israel as a nation; in other words, “Jews” ] people [ Israel ], and even so they [ Israel ] will not listen to Me,” says the Lord.

On the day of Pentecost 30 AD Tongues began and were for the unbelieving nation of Israel. Because in 70 AD God was going to administer His 5th cycle of discipline to the nation of Israel.

Paul can teach about tongues in corinthians(55 or 56 AD) because there were approximately 15 years left until the 5th cycle of discipline for the Nation of Israel( 70 AD).Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus ( A.D. 40-81), Roman emperor, son of Vespasian, took Jerusalem in 70 AD.

 

[Brother Mike]

I believe tongues ceased in 70 AD. I do not deny the reality of tongues today, I do deny the biblical validity of it though.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

Tongues, they.....plural will cease.

That is certainly a very different perspective on tongues. I have seen some of the same scriptures used about tounges passing away and such, but not the extensive history with it. Most don't even have all that extra History information you do.

What was Gods purpose for tongues? To be a sign for unbelieving Jews that were in the 5th cycle of discipline from God.

I have been praying in tongues now for .... Well, time goes by fast it seems but a very long time. I can tell you that it's a awesome gift and very useful to pray things we don't know about in the natural.

My hope is that you reconsider your position from someone that knows it's not passed away. I will save you all the scriptures and pages out of respect because I am sure you have seen it all before.

Be open to the Lord, go after what He puts on your heart to go after, even if it's something you might have believed has passed away. God has lots more for all of us.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Some get the Baptism of the Holy Spirit sooner than others. Some wait years. Some perhaps never get it, they failed the apprenticeship? Have sin in their heart? Know not God?

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance, so there is nothing to be done on our part to fail anything that would be considered a gift. I mean my friend Raised someone from the dead, 3 professional witness, and several not so worthy witness standing right there with the body in the bag. The thing is my friend was High on Heroin when he unzipped the bag and told his dead friend to come back to life right now in the name of Jesus. How does that work?? I don't know but I can tell you it was not his obedience or doing things pleasing to God.

The Holy Spirit tells us the reason many are saved, many have no idea they can be filled with the Holy Spirit, hear God, speak in tongues and all the other cool stuff that comes with this free gift.

Act_19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

"WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD WHETHER THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST"

They had the same problem we have in this thread, We have not heard or understood there is more than just being Baptized in water. We figured we got all the Holy Spirit we are going to get.

Greater in use then He that is in the World and This is one of those things Satan must fight people on tooth and nail because He can't understand a thing that you pray in tongues and He does not want to run smack into the Holy Spirit filled believer.

The Holy Spirit already gave us scriptures that stand the test of eternity to show us what the issue is here.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

Why would God grant power to one not approved? To one with sin still in him?

I think if you study about the church at Corinth you may see that many operated in the gifts, enough that it was disorderly and filled with confusion. They were mostly gentiles and they had others problems as well. They were not sinless. They were still working out their salvation, too.

The Lord will give gifts to whomever He chooses to. But Paul says to seek the gifts, so we should seek the gifts. I think the main thing for one to look at is why do they want the gift? Gifts are for the edification of the church.
So even if we only pray and sing in the Spirit when we are alone does it edify the church? Well who is the church? The church is the people as well as the corporate group. So when we pray in the Spirit, in tongues we may be praying for ourselves but we may be praying for someone who needs prayer or a church that needs prayer about a particular thing that we don't know but the Spirit does.
I also believe that sometimes we are just worshipping God in a very pure way. I don't know quite how to explain that...
But it can be very different for different people.
So I don't think a born again Christian should ever think they haven't received because they aren't good enough!!

 

[JLB]

Bible doctrine and the word shows us that tongues were for the Nation of Israel and they ceased in 70 AD.......An earlier post:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, Acts 10:44-46

The proof that the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles was that they heard them speak in tongues.


So your statement that Tongues was for the Nation of Israel, is contradicted by the Word of God.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Everyone should pray for and pursue these gifts then.

Tongues is the only one Paul said I am glad I speak more tongues than ya all. The Only one out of the gifts Jesus said believe on my name and you shall speak with new tongues. Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover was more in the name of Jesus and faith in the Word and his Name, not the gifts of Healing in operation where we see things happen just suddenly. RECOVER, does not mean right away always but getting stronger and stronger to where there is nothing missing or broken left.

The Word of God is spirit and does accomplish that in which it was sent.

So tongues would be the gift..... We see it in Romans 8 because we don't know the things we should pray for. (Like what happened to me on Sunday with that couple that ran down the cliff on their motorcycle) both the wife and I prayed in tongues and knew it was about an accident but just did not know who. Through that the Lord led me right there where the accident was, and the couple had been prayed over and good to go.

http://www.krzk.com/17032/south_dakota_couple_hurt_in_branson_crash.html

We pray in tongues to build ourselves up in the Holy Ghost, to get wisdom from God. Getting home from Church the wife felt burning in her stomach and just knew we were suppose to pray and we just prayed in tongues. We both got some kind of accident but where? Who? We prayed until we got that release, that (It's OK NOW) inside. When the Lord got me to the accident right when it happened I was there with the couple, and telling them it's going to be just fine. The report said they hit several tree's but they only ran over the small brush type tree's their path to the bottom missed all the big solid tree's it was like someone steered their bike in the perfect place to miss those big trees to the bottom. That was the first thing I noticed.

Believers need to understand the concept that we are the Body, and the Lord (head) works here on earth through the body. Even in the OT God had men speak what God wanted to come to pass because God gave the Earth to man, and God through man bring about the will of God. It's like a legal system where God won't just stomp on the god of this world of his own accord be we being flesh and blood, having a right to be in this World have the authority through God.

Even the devils tried to rebuke Jesus in the name of God as they felt he was operating illegally by telling them what to do, but Jesus had a birth certificate and had every right to operate as He did. The thief of the World came another way, but we born of blood and water, we have the right to be here.

I hope I did not get to deep here, but that God operates by rules He set and he won't break. The devil will never be able to accuse God of being unjust.

Yes, that makes all sorts of sense.

But still...

Study to show thyself approved unto God............. Study............ Study............ Study........... A workman that needs not be ashamed but rightly dividing the Word of Truth. We divide the Word, each scripture of understanding must match another scripture with the same understanding. We take no one scripture and make a doctrine and this is where the study comes in to be approved unto God to be a workman.

The gifts and callings of God though are free and without repentance.

Mat_7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works

They might have done all that with the Holy Spirit, but free gifts are not fruit of repentance and operating in any gift does not denote one's spirituality or right standing with the Lord.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I would only add that unity is not uniformity.

That's a good word brother....one that I'll keep in mind, I hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[stovebolts]

indeed. Just like the Bible says. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And do you think that perhaps this could occur in the water where we, as Paul would say, "die, buried and raised in His Resurrection?" Could this possibly be part of that grand and expansive "One Baptism"?

In other words, does baptism have to be an either or, or can it encompass a bigger picture?

Um, not according to John the Baptist. He contrasted water baptism to the baptism Jesus would give us the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So, are you limiting the Holy Spirit to say that the Holy Spirit cannot be given when one is immersed in the water?

When then are you assured that you have received the Holy Spirit?

 

[stovebolts]

I would only add that unity is not uniformity.

That's a good word brother....one that I'll keep in mind, I hadn't thought of it that way.

Glad you were able to see that. I see much division within the body of Christ because we want everyone to conform to our interpretation of scriptures. Some mandate that you have to be baptized as an adult while other as an infant. Some don't require baptism at all, but demand one speak in tongues. There is even a small church in Tn. that demands one picks up deadly snakes and believe that if you get bit and die, you didn't have the holy spirit. All of this (and much more I didn't mention) comes from the scriptures and how people understand them.

The sooner we let the wind blow where it blows instead of trying to pinpoint exactly when one receives the Holy Spirit the sooner I believe we can become unified as a body. Scripture says, Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Does that mean that one recieved the Holy Spirit upon their water baptism? No, but it clearly shows that if one repents and is baptized, they will receive the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6 says, 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Chopper]

I believe tongues ceased in 70 AD. I do not deny the reality of tongues today, I do deny the biblical validity of it though.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

I have heard that argument for years, in fact I taught that certain gifts would cease. I was a fundamentalist Baptist Pastor/teacher for 16 years. I was a true Baptist of Baptists. All that changed in the Spring 1991. As I said in another post, four days of the presence of God anointing and separating me from my Baptist traditions and opening up my mind to the validity of what I had been preaching against all those years. I had to let go of doctrine that was anti-Christ. I studied under President James Reynolds of the Deliverance Bible Institute in Portland, Maine for a couple of years.

Experience is not everything, but many times it is the Lord Himself and that can't be ignored. I was flirting with the "unforgivable sin" that is, teaching against the ministry of Holy Spirit. I know that a Christian cannot commit that sin but we can certainly approach it. God forgave me because, like Paul, I did it out of ignorance. I must warn my Brothers to be very careful how you teach on these matters, warning, warning!

I do not believe that certain gifts, tongues etc. have ceased. Scriptures are very clear on this matter. 1 COR. 13:8 - 12 plainly says in verse 10 "But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away." (ESV) The best theologians explain that the "perfect" is none other than Jesus Christ at His coming. Therefore all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the 5 fold leaders of the Church are still valid. Our problem is the Church of Jesus Christ needs to figure out how to use these leaders and gifts, not deny their existence. I have noted that many pastors are too jealous to allow men of greater authority to rule over them like Diotrephes in 3 John 9.

 

[Chopper]

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling? Why? If all one has to do is to say the sinners prayer and get water Baptized and they are saved...where is the fear and trembling? What has been worked out?

Very good Edward, I like your post very much and I'm going to ponder your thoughts very carefully, I think you're right!

 

[Chopper]

The sooner we let the wind blow where it blows instead of trying to pinpoint exactly when one receives the Holy Spirit the sooner I believe we can become unified as a body.

Oh boy, ouch, that's going to leave a mark! :tongue OK, I'll cool my jets, you're right. Good one Brother.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Now lets consider what the baptism in the Holy Spirit is for. Acts 1:8 holds the answer. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (notice not in you) He is already in you "and you will be witnesses...." It's clear! The result of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is power!! Power to be bold, power to heal, power to cast out demons, power to power to interpret Scriptures Power to be involved in miracles etc. If refused by dumb traditions, NO POWER! Remember, Jesus commanded these disciples to tarry or wait in Jerusalem for the gift the Father promised, Acts 1:4. The question each of us must answer is "am I refusing this gift of the Father?" If the disciples had refused to wait or refused in some way the baptism in the Holy Spirit, then the result would have been doing the work of God in their own power or might, not in the power of the Holy Spirit, much like the anemic church of today....Sad! Sad!

I hear what you're saying here and it makes sense BUT, we must not be so quick to presume that the promises in scripture about who was to receive the Holy Spirit were promises that were directed at you or I. We need a good reason to read ourselves into these promises before we start applying things to us that may not have been designed to be applied to us.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The best theologians explain that the "perfect" is none other than Jesus Christ at His coming.

Theologians do not the truth make, especially on matters such as this that causes dissention among theologians. Many say the perfect is a reference to the completed Word of God in scripture, while others say the perfect in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 can be nothing other than the love spoken of by Jesus and Paul in this very letter, and thee are others that say the perfect is refering to a complete and total understanding of the ways of God and Jesus' expectations for his elect.

 

[Chopper]

We need a good reason to read ourselves into these promises

I hear what you're saying Brother, what concerns me is, if we jump into the camp of distinguishing what ministry was only for the Apostles and what is passed through them to us, well, that's going to really open up a can of worms. I rely on the Scripture found in 2 Timothy 3:16 "all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. (17) that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work".

I'll stick with all Scripture unless said Scripture says different.

 

[Chopper]

Theologians do not the truth make, especially on matters such as this that causes dissention among theologians. Many say the perfect is a reference to the completed Word of God in scripture, while others say the perfect in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 can be nothing other than the love spoken of by Jesus and Paul in this very letter, and thee are others that say the perfect is refering to a complete and total understanding of the ways of God and Jesus' expectations for his elect.

I guess the theologians that you refer to didn't read "face to face" in verse 12 which the better theologians did.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

All of those promises are ours brother. I am certain of this. Scripture supports this.

Where is this scriptural support you speak of? There are many promises in scripture and assuming all of those are applicable to all can not only be a misapplication, but also create doctrinal conflicts among believers that the scriptures themselves do not present. Reader must be careful to rightly divide the written word before being quick to assume they know the audience for whom certain messages and promises are made to. We should read with certain questions in mind with the hope of learning what instructions, promises, etc. are directed at me and what are simply things that can be read to learn life lessons though the specifics of the directives and/or promises were not intended for me to specifically apply.

God does not change.

What He promises, don't promise or makes available to people has nothing to do with Him changing. God does not have to change for Him to have differing expectations, different rules, and different promises for different people who live at different times.

I hear what you're saying Brother, what concerns me is, if we jump into the camp of distinguishing what ministry was only for the Apostles and what is passed through them to us, well, that's going to really open up a can of worms.

Sometimes it's a VERY good thing to open up such a can. Doing so can make us uncomfortable in where we stand at the moment but ultimately may be a learning experience that leads to growth and better understanding.

 

[Chopper]

God does not change. Old Testament, New Testament, doesn't matter. Freely we have been given, we have only to receive and accept His promises. The only reason that people do not receive more gifts from the Lord is because they either ask not, or satan has tricked them into believing that the promises are for others and not us. Not True! This holds true for everything. Healing, salvation, strength, and the Gift of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It has to be or God is a liar. God is no liar.

Hi my knowledgeable Brother Thank you so much for your research and taking the time to enter all those undeniable facts. In my opinion, I should refer to you Dr. Ed. You must have your PhD in theology. You hit more of the supporting Scriptures than I did. Your post should remove any doubt as it comes to promises and who they are for.

Thank you my learned friend.

 

[Brother Mike]

I hear what you're saying here and it makes sense BUT, we must not be so quick to presume that the promises in scripture about who was to receive the Holy Spirit were promises that were directed at you or I. We need a good reason to read ourselves into these promises before we start applying things to us that may not have been designed to be applied to us.

God is no respecter of persons. If tongues for example has blessed others by me praying for things I don't know or understand but to just pray, then you as a believer also have this same gift available to bless and help others.

If tongues edify me and build up the faith I have, then you also as a believer have that option.

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If Jesus said that God being your father through the adoption unto children through believing on his name you have a right to ask for the Holy Spirit also, then if God is your father you have that right, just Like I have that right.

We have not because we ask not, and we don't seek.

It's not complicated at all, you are used to operate in the gifts or you are not used. You speak in tongues or you don't.

If you don't, then it's time to seek after some things. The believers life should be filled with Power, the same Power and greater God used me and the wife for the other day about praying in tongues for a serious accident. We both knew to just pray in tongues and we both got to praying. We both got from the Holy Spirit a accident of some kind, so we kept praying until it was fixed and we had that release in our spirit.

I was going to take my son to his Gma's but the Lord said wait........ Just wait....... then I got a go take him now. I did, not knowing why I had to wait, but on the way back to home some lady flagged me down on the side of the road. She was frantic (I think she caused the accident by the way she was acting) and she told me a older couple on a motor cycle had went off the side of the road, all the way down the cliff and tree's.

It was at that moment I knew what accident the Lord was speaking about and made my way down to see If I could find them. (Lots of rock and trees with brush)

The guy was missing part of his face but conscience and I was at least able to assure him everything was going to be OK, His situation had already been prayed for, and the Lord had it under control. his wife was thrown pretty far but she did not appear to be injured or bleeding much.


Now, I find it hard to believe that somehow Mike is just so special to be used in this way, when God could have used anyone that can hear him, and pray in tongues when instructed to do so.

I also find it hard to believe that just because we don't want to seek tongues or believe it's for us that God just somehow exempts us from all responsibility, especially when God puts people in our path telling us to go after these things.............

Couple from South Dakota Injured in Motorcycle Accident
A couple from Del Rapids, South Dakota was injured in a motorcycle accident at about 5:15 Sunday evening on Shepherd of the Hills Expressway in Branson. A motorcycle operated by 63 year old Stevan Lynch ran off the roadway at a curve and struck several trees, ejecting Lynch and 63 year old passenger Bonnie Lynch. Stevan suffered serious injuries and Bonnie sustained minor injuries. They were both transported to Cox Springfield for treatment.

(He actually did not hit any big tree on the way down, His bike went between all the trees somehow, I traced the path down. They did not have helmets, and by the grace of God considering how far they went down that both will survive and are alive.)

Just one example of why we need everything God has for us as his Children.

http://www.klfcradio.com/News-Weather.htm


Mike.