'The Bible tells me so' is wrong

[GodsVoice]

You might be interested in this article by Dr Albert Mohler Jr: For the Bible Tells Me So: Biblical Authority Denied … Again

'Jesus loves me this I know, the Bible tells me so', is the problem according to Andy Stanley, that drives believers away from Christianity. So what does Stanley do?

Dr Mohler takes on this issue raised by Stanley: 'In a recent message delivered at North Point Community Church and posted online, Stanley identifies the evangelical impulse to turn to the Bible in our defense and presentation of Christianity as a huge blunder that must be corrected'.

Has Dr Mohler hit the mark in exposing Stanley's devaluation of the Bible?

Oz

There is one thing I know for sure that most people do not understand when it comes to the Bible. Any liar or false prophet, even atheists can use the words from the Bible without the Bible knowing that they are using the words for their own selfish purposes or that they interpreted the prophecies incorrectly. The Bible cannot stop any liar from reading it, interpreting the words wrongly and then standing in front of a large congregation of people who think they're going to listen to a godly man preach the truth to them.

 

[Jim Parker]

There is one thing I know for sure that most people do not understand when it comes to the Bible. Any liar or false prophet, even atheists can use the words from the Bible without the Bible knowing that they are using the words for their own selfish purposes or that they interpreted the prophecies incorrectly. The Bible cannot stop any liar from reading it, interpreting the words wrongly and then standing in front of a large congregation of people who think they're going to listen to a godly man preach the truth to them.

ANd there you have it.
Well said.

 

[Free]

John Piper just said this on Facebook today:

"One good, solid, contextual, grammatical argument for what a text means outweighs every assertion that the Holy Spirit told me the meaning."

 

[Jim Parker]

John Piper just said this on Facebook today:

"One good, solid, contextual, grammatical argument for what a text means outweighs every assertion that the Holy Spirit told me the meaning."

I agree totally considering some of the totally asinine tripe that I have heard people say the Holy Ghost told them.

iakov the fool

 

[K2CHRIST]

There is one thing I know for sure that most people do not understand when it comes to the Bible. Any liar or false prophet, even atheists can use the words from the Bible without the Bible knowing that they are using the words for their own selfish purposes or that they interpreted the prophecies incorrectly. The Bible cannot stop any liar from reading it, interpreting the words wrongly and then standing in front of a large congregation of people who think they're going to listen to a godly man preach the truth to them.

Yes, I love it. The Bible is not a person but rather a book, so it can't think and take action. God the Father, Son, and Spirit can think and take action. That is why we don't say because the Bible tells me so, but rather because the Lord our God tells me so. We must listen to Him, and especially when we read and study the Bible.

Nice post GodsVoice

 

[smaller]

Yes, I love it. The Bible is not a person but rather a book, so it can't think and take action. God the Father, Son, and Spirit can think and take action. That is why we don't say because the Bible tells me so, but rather because the Lord our God tells me so. We must listen to Him, and especially when we read and study the Bible.

Nice post GodsVoice

And the guy who made that post has some seriously off the wall claims that amount to his own imaginary scripturally unsupportable narratives that aren't what the Holy Spirit or God or the scriptures told him, but that he himself is the voice of God, hence his handle. He does exactly what he's complaining about what others do, himself.

Our imaginations can and do get us into many troubles, with or without the Bible.

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The fact that the above is required shows us the problems are internal and we have legitimate reasons to "not trust" ourselves.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Casting down out imaginations and bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ means that you must hear from Christ and what He has to say about them. Yet some are reading the Bible, coming up with their own thoughts and are failing to realize that they are their own thoughts. They think their thought about the Bible are God speaking to them because they don't hear from God. And if someone tries to explain about how being born again means hearing the wind, they think that person is coming up with their own thinking because that is what they do. Yet the message is difference from the two:

One tells others to listen to Jesus Christ and has words that He personally told him, and the other winds up saying, "Because the Bible tells me so" because they know inside they have never actually hear from the Lord to be able to say, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ told me so".

They fail to realize that; thought they read about brining every thought to the obedience of Christ, to them it means bring every thought captive to their understanding of the Bible. They try to follow the Bible instead of trying to follow the One the Bible tells them to follow.

It becomes obvious to anyone who really knows the Lord, because they never have a personal word from the Lord. If they did they would tell people about Him and sometime gives examples to others in hope that they will understanding what Jesus meant when He said my sheep hear my voice.

He once was talking to me, and telling me,

"Karl, so often people ask Me for more but they won't use what I've already given them. I give them ears to hear, but instead of using the ears I gave them to hear Me they just ask for more.

I do want to give them more and do, yet if they are not listening to Me are they going to know about the more I give them? So perhaps they already have the more they were looking for? Perhaps I have already spoken more into their lives but don't know it because they don't listen to Me?

If they listen, they will find the more they were looking for, and I will add more on top of that. The eye has not seen nor the ears heard all I have planned for them, but the eyes and ears should at least be trying to find out what I have already given them."

Perhaps someone thinks the above is my imagination, but how will they know if they can't hear from the Lord themselves?

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand'...

I find it amazing that telling people about actually hearing from God sometimes tends to drive them father from God and they become more stubborn and determined not to seek the voice of God but to lean on their own understanding of the Scriptures. They then put their faith in knowing the Scriptures and become determined to follow them instead of listening by faith for the Lord Jesus Christ with their spiritual ears; and it is all just like is written in the Scriptures.


Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

If they believed in Jesus Christ they would be saying, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ told me so", but they prove that they are still shut up under sin when they say, "Because the Bible tell me so."

 

[smaller]

Casting down out imaginations and bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ means that you must hear from Christ and what He has to say about them. Yet some are reading the Bible, coming up with their own thoughts and are failing to realize that they are their own thoughts. They think their thought about the Bible are God speaking to them because they don't hear from God. And if someone tries to explain about how being born again means hearing the wind, they think that person is coming up with their own thinking because that is what they do. Yet the message is difference from the two:

It may be fair to say that the Word, as recorded, is entirely reliable. The hearers however are another story altogether, as reality proves to be the case.

One tells others to listen to Jesus Christ and has words that He personally told him, and the other winds up saying, "Because the Bible tells me so" because they know inside they have never actually hear from the Lord to be able to say, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ told me so".

God directly advised us to listen to Jesus in more than one citing. There are only 3 avenues to go down here. Either His recorded Words, the potential of speakings being of our own imaginations/thoughts, or some mix of the the 2 prior.

Out of those selections most sane approaches lean to the recorded version for consistent reliability and also those same "as it is written" as a measure of accuracy/comparisons to the potential of our deceiving imaginations/thoughts being not accurate whatsoever OR the claims of others saying "God told me."

There is no accounting of God told me unless we "go check it out" for accuracy comparisons.

We don't need direct communications from Jesus to get directions already provided, as duly noted prior. Jesus doesn't have to repeat, for each individual, directly, His written Dictates.

They fail to realize that; thought they read about brining every thought to the obedience of Christ, to them it means bring every thought captive to their understanding of the Bible. They try to follow the Bible instead of trying to follow the One the Bible tells them to follow.

And that would be you trying to make some divide between Jesus and His Own Word, written. Which is often if not always the claim of those who have no respect for what is written or those who try to make such divides when there is none to be had.

It becomes obvious to anyone who really knows the Lord, because they never have a personal word from the Lord.

Or a personal imagination/thought. Most who claim to hear directly from Jesus, from my own experiences, didn't hear a thing but their own contrived fancies and fantasies. They actually refuse to put such claims under any scrutiny or accountability for legitimacy.

If they did they would tell people about Him and sometime gives examples to others in hope that they will understanding what Jesus meant when He said my sheep hear my voice.

Hearing His Voice and hearing what He said that is "recorded" is no different.

He once was talking to me, and telling me,

"Karl, so often people ask Me for more but they won't use what I've already given them. I give them ears to hear, but instead of using the ears I gave them to hear Me they just ask for more.

I do want to give them more and do,

Part one would be you talking in circles. Jesus has already provided more than ample written Word, but you take that to mean their personal ears rather than His Word.

The second is a good example of poor old God who just can't seem to get the job done.

fwiw I don't buy any of those types of claims to start with because it's nothing but an imagination of the speaker proposing it.

yet if they are not listening to Me are they going to know about the more I give them?

Do you know how many "imaginary God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit is speaking to me" people I've heard blame MAN? All of them. It's a common denominator. And the usual translation is "listen to ME" instead.

So perhaps they already have the more they were looking for? Perhaps I have already spoken more into their lives but don't know it because they don't listen to Me?

Yep, poor old Jesus just can't seem to dial in everyone's channel to His personal voice.

That is such a yawner argument.

If they listen, they will find the more they were looking for, and I will add more on top of that. The eye has not seen nor the ears heard all I have planned for them, but the eyes and ears should at least be trying to find out what I have already given them."

The "God assist" program. God wants to do all this stuff for you you you if ONLY you you you would listen.

Did it ever occur to you to listen to what is already there to "listen to?"

Perhaps someone thinks the above is my imagination, but how will they know if they can't hear from the Lord themselves?

I can assure you that the poor old Jesus who just can't seem to dial in His Own believers channel to "speak to them directly" is no Jesus of mine.

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand'...

Yeah, the divine irony of citing His Written Word to prove not to hear the Written Word and listen instead to the supposed Jesus channel that Jesus can't seem to deliver on. I do hope you might see the circle of illogical claims involved.

I find it amazing that telling people about actually hearing from God sometimes tends to drive them father from God and they become more stubborn and determined not to seek the voice of God but to lean on their own understanding of the Scriptures.

You don't seem to be able to grasp that there isn't any difference between God and His Own Words unless we like to turn God into some massive contradictions between what is written and what God MIGHT happen to say to any and every individual that can't hold up to a LICK of what He already said.

And that is pretty much exactly where it all lands in the end. It's also why I don't fellowship with the imaginary Jesus talks to me in my head people (largely in the charismania camps) anymore because they all have half baked notions when such claims are held up to the accounts of what Jesus already recorded to make comparisons of legitimacy for such claims.

In the final analysis nearly all of them are following their own half baked notions and imaginations that either make God/Jesus a contradictory liar or that have just enough dose of truth to written scripture to make them swallow all the half baked portions.

None of these types of folks have any interest in 'fact checking' the God in their head to His Own Words.

I'd dare call them personally imagined carved god idols that these people follow.

They then put their faith in knowing the Scriptures and become determined to follow them instead of listening by faith for the Lord Jesus Christ with their spiritual ears; and it is all just like is written in the Scriptures.

Again and again that is only YOUR imagination trying to make a difference between Gods Word and the supposed alternative God in your head. I'd suggest the there is only one reliable Word and it's not the word in our heads.

Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

If they believed in Jesus Christ they would be saying, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ told me so", but they prove that they are still shut up under sin when they say, "Because the Bible tell me so."

Whether they agree with Gal. 3:22 won't change the fact of Gal. 3:22, which provides even more cause to distrust "little voice in our heads claiming to be GOD SPEAKING."

If we can't "HEAR" the reality fact of Gal. 3:22 and recognize our issues, little voices in our heads telling us otherwise should be trusted even LESS because it would be LYING.

 

[K2CHRIST]

It may be fair to say that the Word, as recorded, is entirely reliable. The hearers however are another story altogether, as reality proves to be the case.

It is fair to say that those who wrote the Scriptures (the Greek word of Scriptures is Graphe and is not translated "Word" in your Bible) did hear from God extremely well and so they are indeed a reliable source to compare and learn from. That is why Paul wrote, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16 Note it does not say the Word is inspired by God, but rather All Scripture, In case you are actually willing to be reproved by what is written.

Anyway, I would fully agree that we must read and study the Scriptures. It help us discern what we hear with our spiritual ears. However if you came to the conclusion that we follow the Scriptures and say "Because the Bible says" instead of following the Lord Jesus Christ who is recorded as saying His sheep hear His voice and that He lead them out with His voice, so that a person would say, "Because the Lord Jesus Christ told me so", how well are you at comparing what is written in the Scriptures with your life?

Out of those selections most sane approaches lean to the recorded version for consistent reliability and also those same "as it is written" as a measure of accuracy/comparisons to the potential of our deceiving imaginations/thoughts being not accurate whatsoever OR the claims of others saying "God told me."

So someone might think they should lean on the recorded instead of seeking the voice of the Lord who said His sheep hear HIs voice and He leads them out with His voice, but that would be insane, not sane, if you actually believe what it recorded. That is exactly why Jesus told the Jews, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." ( Jn 5:39,40)

There were and still are those that think it is sane to search the Scriptures instead of seeking the voice and instructions of the Lord, and they actually believe that is going to save them, but it is not according to the very Scriptures they are placing their faith in. If indeed they had believed the writings they would have been seeking the Lord, but they don't even believe what is written as can be seen in their not seeking to hear from the Lord by faith. Which is why Jesus told the Jews. "For if you believed Moses you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words." (Jn 5:46,47)

So some think it is wise and sane to not try and hear from the Holy Spirit by faith, and instead depend upon the writings. They say, "Because the Bible tells me", because they don't believe that the Lord is with them to be heard from. They don't actually believe in the sacred and Holy writings either, because those writing tell them over and over to hear the Word of God. They don't do that and not think that their reading the Scriptures is the same as their hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ.

So they write silly things like:

Yeah, the divine irony of citing His Written Word to prove not to hear the Written Word and listen instead to the supposed Jesus channel that Jesus can't seem to deliver on. I do hope you might see the circle of illogical claims involved.

You don't hear something that is written, you read it. But if you are born again you hear the sound of the wind and what the Spirit of God speaks to you. That is what Moses, did. That is what Abraham did. They is why Paul wrote about hearing with faith. It takes some faith to hear with your spiritual ears. It does not take faith to read your Bible. It would take some faith to hear the Lord tell you where to open in the Bible and to have a discussion with Him about what you read after you read it. But you don't do that if you think the reading of it was hearing. You do that if you know that the Lord can and will talk to you about what is written.

He once told me, "Karl, they call me Wonderful Counselor, and so I am. But I am not a wonderful counselor to those that don't listen to Me." So you can read where Isaiah wrote that He is called Wonderful Counselor, but if you think the reading was the hearing you will never know Him as the Wonderful Counselor!!! You will be saying, "Because the Bible tells me so", because you won't be hearing and taking His personal advice and counsel for your life. If you were doing what He was telling you, you would be saying, "Because the Lord Jesus Christ told me so". I go to the church I do "Because My Lord Jesus Christ told me so." I wanted to go to a smaller Charismatic church, but He told me to go to a larger Charismatic church that was close to me. He told me He needed me to do some things for Him there, and He did hook me into a couple of ministries that He (not me) wanted me doing for Him. But what would someone that depends on reading the Scriptures for their eternal life instead of believing He can, will, and does talk to them know about such a thing. They can even believe anyone could live by faith like that, because they can believe enough to seeking HIs voice for themselves.

I can point it out to them, but they can't accept it, can they?

The Jesus I serve is not poor, He is powerful. I see Him perform miracles when I serve Him and do what He asked. He set up devine appointment to minister when I listen to Him and go where He tells me. I have seen so so many incredible things by simply listening to HIs voice and following His instructions. That is why I persistently tell people about Him. Jesus Christ is the Word of God we preach, meaning we are telling people that He is indeed the Great I Am and wants to talk to them personally. He didn't just leave us with some writings. He left us the writings to explain that He would never leave us and that He stands at the door knocking and if any will hear His voice and open the door He will come into them and eat with them.

 

[smaller]

It is fair to say that those who wrote the Scriptures (the Greek word of Scriptures is Graphe and is not translated "Word" in your Bible) did hear from God extremely well and so they are indeed a reliable source to compare and learn from.

Is it fair to say that God Himself has spoken to US from the prophets, His Son and His Apostles?

Heb. 1:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2 Peter 3:2
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

That is why Paul wrote, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16 Note it does not say the Word is inspired by God, but rather All Scripture, In case you are actually willing to be reproved by what is written.

I see no distinction.

Anyway, I would fully agree that we must read and study the Scriptures. It help us discern what we hear with our spiritual ears. However if you came to the conclusion that we follow the Scriptures and say "Because the Bible says" instead of following the Lord Jesus Christ who is recorded as saying His sheep hear His voice and that He lead them out with His voice, so that a person would say, "Because the Lord Jesus Christ told me so", how well are you at comparing what is written in the Scriptures with your life?

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Did I hear Jesus from my imagination? No. Neither did any of us. We heard "The Word" and we believed "The Word." Some may have even felt the LOVE of God in their hearts accompanying same.

So someone might think they should lean on the recorded instead of seeking the voice of the Lord who said His sheep hear HIs voice and He leads them out with His voice, but that would be insane, not sane,

Unlikely. The sheep hear what is written. The sheep also have vivid imaginations and thoughts that need to be taken captive as well as evil thoughts. Hearing voices in our heads claiming to be Jesus on that basis of facts is a landmine waiting to be stepped on.

if you actually believe what it recorded. That is exactly why Jesus told the Jews, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." ( Jn 5:39,40)

They didn't HEAR.

What you think you are hearing in the above is to listen to voices in your head claiming to be Jesus talking to you, and then trying to justify that stance via written Word.

Pardon me if I remain suspect of such voices, particular when they double talk, using written Word to justify ignoring written Word in favor of voices in our heads, and then BLAMING people for not "hearing directly" from God.

Seems to me your positions just have a different set of stocks to hang around peoples necks.

Of course since YOU don't have that problem, then people need to listen to K2.

 

[WIP]

Let's not get personal!

 

[K2CHRIST]

Is it fair to say that God Himself has spoken to US from the prophets, His Son and His Apostles?

The above is the attitude with many "Christian", but it is wrong, but they don't understanding it. It is not that "God Himself has spoken to US" it's that God Himself speaks to US"!

I once heard Benny Hinn say, "It is not, 'Thus said the Lord', It is 'Thus saith the Lord', He is still speaking today"

But if you are not thinking God still speaks to us, perhaps you will believe what the prophets wrote?

Isaiah wrote, Is 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the Lord speaks,

And this misunderstanding is the crux of the matter. The Pharisee believe the Lord spoke to the prophets, but they did not listen by faith, believing and hearing God speak to them. And this was exactly the problem Jesus Christ covered with the Pharisees.

Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word

Jesus talked with Nicodemus, a Pharisee and teacher of the law who studied the Scriptures, and told him,

Jn 3:10,11 "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

And this is exactly what is happening here. I have been testifying that we can hear the sound of the wind (the Spirit) and the words that He speaks to us, yet there are some that do not accept our testimony.

It is not that God has spoken, it is that God speaks. It is not "Because the Bible tells me so", it is "Because the Lord tells me so." I am testify that God speaks, while other do not accept that testimony and only believe the God has spoken.

There is nothing new in under the sun. The same things is happening that happened. That is why the Bible can be of great value, "It is able to give you wisdom lead to salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ." 2 Tim 5:16 But if you mistakenly thought faith in the Bible was going to give you salvation you are heading toward a huge problem. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, whose name is called the Word of God because He speaks to us. And salvation does not come from the Scriptures which is a record of what He spoke to others. You must personally know Him. And you don't if you think it is about what was said instead of it being about that that He says.



Ps, if you are really thinking I am asking people to listen to me, you are wrong!! You clearly have not been paying attention to what I am writing. My purpose is to get people, all people, to listen to the word the Lord has to say to them. Of course part of the reason you missed that is because you don't think that will speak to us today, so you rejected my testimony that He does speak to us today.

The Lord once told me, "Listen to me. Listen to me, Karl, why do they say listen to me? Isn't it because they don't listen to Me."

If you check out what I have been writing it is to get you (as in all people who read this forum) to listen to the Lord. The sayings I got and presented as being from Him were testimonies of what I have heard Him say and are meant to convince you that the Lord still speaks to His people today. Yet some reject my testimony

 

[smaller]

The above is the attitude with many "Christian", but it is wrong, but they don't understanding it. It is not that "God Himself has spoken to US" it's that God Himself speaks to US"!

I have no issues with God speaking to us through His Word, written.

When it comes to claims of God speaking to us specifically, a whole nuther matter.

What is your position trying to do? Condemn those who have no "specific personal dialog" in their heads with Jesus?

I once heard Benny Hinn say, "It is not, 'Thus said the Lord', It is 'Thus saith the Lord', He is still speaking today"

Benny Hinn would be about the last person on my list to listen to for solid teachings. You might understand my general disdain for all such claims had you hung out in the charismatic arenas as long as I did and witnessed the gross distortions and vile manipulations of every such claimer, which I have witnessed.

But if you are not thinking God still speaks to us, perhaps you will believe what the prophets wrote?

Isaiah wrote, Is 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the Lord speaks,

And this misunderstanding is the crux of the matter. The Pharisee believe the Lord spoke to the prophets, but they did not listen by faith, believing and hearing God speak to them. And this was exactly the problem Jesus Christ covered with the Pharisees.

IF the intentions of God in Christ were to hook up every believer up to a personal specific voice in our heads I'd suggest that God is Christ is nothing but a massive failure.

Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word

Jesus talked with Nicodemus, a Pharisee and teacher of the law who studied the Scriptures, and told him,

Jn 3:10,11 "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

All of which refers to the "recorded Word." The Word of God, "recorded" was never delivered "willy nilly."

And this is exactly what is happening here. I have been testifying that we can hear the sound of the wind (the Spirit) and the words that He speaks to us, yet there are some that do not accept our testimony.

And I have said no differently. There is however a dramatic difference between being "moved" by the Spirit and being moved by "voices in our heads" claiming to be Jesus speaking to us.

They are not the same. I'm NOT discounting that believers do receive from time to time, specific dictates. But the claims that Jesus has specific ongoing conversations with us in our heads over coffee and donuts is a little over the top.

And IF you witnessed as many people as I have who had their lives derailed by "voices in their heads" claiming to be Jesus and giving specific directions that turned out NOT to be Jesus whatsoever, but a trainwreck, you'd understand.

Personally I think people who make such claims have issues. And I tend to avoid them because I know the trainwreck is chugging down the track.

It is not that God has spoken, it is that God speaks. It is not "Because the Bible tells me so", it is "Because the Lord tells me so." I am testify that God speaks, while other do not accept that testimony and only believe the God has spoken.

We have written Word and we have Spirit of God in Christ. I do not consider them to be at odds, different, or in contentions with each others.

So, the reasonable math involved here is that IF anyone wants to claim Jesus is speaking to them in their heads with specific discourse, they best hold such claims up to written records for accuracy. Which such claimants NEVER seem to be interested in doing, preferring their own imaginary Jesus concoctions. It's a quite predictable pattern every time. No accountability whatsoever.

There is nothing new in under the sun. The same things is happening that happened. That is why the Bible can be of great value, "It is able to give you wisdom lead to salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ." 2 Tim 5:16 But if you mistakenly thought faith in the Bible was going to give you salvation you are heading toward a huge problem. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, whose name is called the Word of God because He speaks to us. And salvation does not come from the Scriptures which is a record of what He spoke to others. You must personally know Him. And you don't if you think it is about what was said instead of it being about that that He says.

Yes, I very much have faith in the record that God has provided through His Word, His Prophets, His Apostles.

Everyone else claiming to be THE WORD OF GOD or Jesus in their heads, inclusive of myself and little voices in my head claiming to be Jesus ARE going to be held to the account of both Spirit and Word, written.

If others want to be led by little voices in their heads, I might suggest, invariably, that such little voices prove to be out of line and unaccountable, the majority of the time.

And there are multiple "ways to test" these matters given to us by the Apostles.

 

[Free]

Casting down out imaginations and bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ means that you must hear from Christ and what He has to say about them. Yet some are reading the Bible, coming up with their own thoughts and are failing to realize that they are their own thoughts. They think their thought about the Bible are God speaking to them because they don't hear from God. And if someone tries to explain about how being born again means hearing the wind, they think that person is coming up with their own thinking because that is what they do. Yet the message is difference from the two:

One tells others to listen to Jesus Christ and has words that He personally told him, and the other winds up saying, "Because the Bible tells me so" because they know inside they have never actually hear from the Lord to be able to say, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ told me so".

They fail to realize that; thought they read about brining every thought to the obedience of Christ, to them it means bring every thought captive to their understanding of the Bible. They try to follow the Bible instead of trying to follow the One the Bible tells them to follow.

It becomes obvious to anyone who really knows the Lord, because they never have a personal word from the Lord. If they did they would tell people about Him and sometime gives examples to others in hope that they will understanding what Jesus meant when He said my sheep hear my voice.

He once was talking to me, and telling me,

"Karl, so often people ask Me for more but they won't use what I've already given them. I give them ears to hear, but instead of using the ears I gave them to hear Me they just ask for more.

I do want to give them more and do, yet if they are not listening to Me are they going to know about the more I give them? So perhaps they already have the more they were looking for? Perhaps I have already spoken more into their lives but don't know it because they don't listen to Me?

If they listen, they will find the more they were looking for, and I will add more on top of that. The eye has not seen nor the ears heard all I have planned for them, but the eyes and ears should at least be trying to find out what I have already given them."

Perhaps someone thinks the above is my imagination, but how will they know if they can't hear from the Lord themselves?

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand'...

I find it amazing that telling people about actually hearing from God sometimes tends to drive them father from God and they become more stubborn and determined not to seek the voice of God but to lean on their own understanding of the Scriptures. They then put their faith in knowing the Scriptures and become determined to follow them instead of listening by faith for the Lord Jesus Christ with their spiritual ears; and it is all just like is written in the Scriptures.

What you don't seem to understand about the Bible is that it is inspired, it contains the words that God wanted us to know for Christian belief and practice. The Bible is primarily how God speaks to us. That is the whole point of having the Bible.

The problem is those who say we don't need the Bible, just listen to Jesus or the Holy Spirit or God. I have stated many times in these forums, and perhaps even earlier in this thread, that many have come here saying such things but yet they all disagree with each other. Take the person you quoted for example. Clearly states and believes that he hears directly from God, yet believes that we live in something akin to The Matrix--all "reality" is an illusion and it's just programs and stuff. Do you think he is correct, and if not, on what basis then can you claim he is wrong?

Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

If they believed in Jesus Christ they would be saying, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ told me so", but they prove that they are still shut up under sin when they say, "Because the Bible tell me so."

That is patently, completely, utterly false and a misuse of Scripture as it is dealing with something quite different. What we should look at is 2 Tim. 3:14-17:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

Here we see that Scripture is sufficient for the Christian, with Paul even stating that the OT was able to make Timothy wise for salvation. Can you provide even one verse stating that we are to listen for Christ's voice?

 

[Jim Parker]

Casting down out imaginations and bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ means that you must hear from Christ and what He has to say about them. Yet some are reading the Bible, coming up with their own thoughts and are failing to realize that they are their own thoughts.

And there are many who "hear" their own thoughts and the devil convinces them that they heard from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus spoke directly to the apostles who wrote the New Testament.
They taught the next generation of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
And those people taught the next generation and so on.
They did as Paul instructed: (2Ti 2:2 NKJV) And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

The result of that process is that the Church was able to preserve the teachings of the apostles which enabled them to refute the heresies of the coming centuries. They new teaching would simply be compared to the scriptures and the apostolic tradition. It had to perfectly fit with both to be accepted.

Now, we have the situation where every Tom, Dick and Harriet thinks that they have a direct line to God because the Holy Ghost talks directly to them and teaches them things that the Church has never taught before but, according to them; "It's right there in the Bible." (The Bible tells me so.)

It is the Church which is the pillar and ground of the truth (1Ti 3:15) not every owner of a copy of the Bible and the Holy Ghost's private number.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
2




DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[K2CHRIST]

And there are many who "hear" their own thoughts and the devil convinces them that they heard from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice! And the Scriptures are important to read and study to make sure it is His voice! 1 Jn 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God... By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh if from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

Now the Bible gives us great advice, but who uses it? To use the above test you must first be able to hear with your spiritual ears. So who hears with their spiritual ears. From my experience and time spent talking to other Christians I find that very few actually have used this test! I wonder if Mr. Jim Parker can honestly say he has used this test and asked a spirit that he has heard talking to him if they will confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I have. Most of the time I get a confirmation and there have been times when suddenly the voice is gone, and what's more amazing to me is that at times I have been told "I can't tell you that."

Now I have talked to quite a few other Christians about this test and what they hear, and virtually none that hear ever use this test. Some, do use 1 Cor 12:3 ...no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus Christ is accursed" and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. And those using that test (which are not most Christians) have told me that they run across spirits that have told them they can't say that or have instantly gone away.

And there is always the question as to when it is you and when it is a spirit. That can be a problem, but with practice listening all of this becomes easily to figure out. Heb 5:14... who because of practice have their sense trained to discern good and evil.

Now I don't mind and even love to talk about hearing with our spiritual ears. But what's harder to do is talking honestly about hearing with our spiritual ears with people who claim they are trying to do what is written in the Bible and they are clear not!!! They don't practice listening with their spiritual ears, they don't make sure that what they are picking up is declaring Jesus Christ as their Lord, they don't test the spirits by making sure they confess the Jesus Christ came in the flesh as commanded to do in the Bible, and basically they are not keeping the commandment the Father gave us about listening to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mar 17:5... This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!

And when that happens and Christian are not trying to seek His voice and listen to Him, then they fall back into questioning whether others can heard from the Lord, and start confessing they believe in the Bible and are going to follow the Bible. The problem is that the Bible clear states that we are supposed to following Jesus Christ as our Lord, but listening to Him. He said He leads His sheep out with His voice.

If that happens and they say things things like, "Because the Bible tells me so", because they are trying to follow the Bible instead of reading the Bible and studying the Bible because it will help them follow the Lord by hearing with they spiritual ears. If they are indeed following the Jesus Christ as their Lord they will be saying, "Because my Lord Jesus Christ tells me so," because is in fact what's happening.

The interesting thing about the person the says, "Because the Bible tells me so", is not actually confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord, and they fail the test in 1 Cor. Sometime the will tell you Jesus Christ is Lord, because "The Bible tells them so," but because He is actually their Lord. He is actually their Lord when they hear instructions from Him and they do it. When they are hearing Him talk to them and do those things He tells them they Confess Jesus is Lord, but if they are depending on what the Bible tells them they don't actually confess Jesus Christ is Lord, they just say He is "Because the Bible tells them so."

And when that happens they tend to question whether others can actually hear from Him, simply because they don't. So they wind up saying in one way or another, "Indeed has God said?" And that by no coincidence is what the snake first said. If you don't practice hearing with your spiritual ears you are not able to discern between good and evil. Evil always is trying to convince people the God doesn't talk to them. But he doesn't mind you studying the Scriptures. Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the devil, (Jn 8:44) and they studied the Scriptures

So the Pharisees believed that the Prophets and those in the past hear God, but they did not want some Tom, Dick, Harriet, or even a Jesus, telling the people that they could hear from God. Never-the-less Jesus Christ said, "I stand at the door and knock and if anyone (which would include all those Tom, Dick, and Harriet's out there) hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into them and eat with them and them with me." So hearing from the Lord Jesus Christ is an option and even a command from the Father. Still Jesus told the Pharisees, " He who is of God; hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear the, because you are not of God."

So what do you see when reading the Bible? Didn't you see over and over that we (every Tom, Dick, and Harriet) should be seeking the voice of our Lord Jesus Christ and it is written that all those who seek find, but also that the religious leaders often didn't and even killed those that tried to tell them to listen to the Lord.

I'm not saying every Christian leader is like that, but those that know the Lord will be encouraging you to seek the voice of the Lord by faith for yourself, and those whose father is the devil will be trying to get you to question what hearing from the Lord is possible. So is there message like the Father's who said of Jesus Christ "Listen to Him", or is their message like the snakes, "Indeed, did God say."

Isaiah said, "Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth; For the Lord speaks, -- Yet those who killed the prophets read what was written, but didn't do it.

 

[K2CHRIST]

The problem is those who say we don't need the Bible, just listen to Jesus or the Holy Spirit or God

When I tell people to listen to the Lord, I find some that think I the Bible is not important. What's amazing is that I use the Bible over and over to prove my point. I find the Scriptures very important. And it is not just me. The very first words I heard the Lord tell me were "Read Your Bible." If you do read your Bible you would have seen that we are supposed to be listening to the Lord Jesus Christ. So I never said to just listen to the Holy Spirit. In fact I would say that if you can read and there is a Bible in your language you should read and study it. You will find that among other things the Scriptures are good for " teaching, reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. And that because it's writing was inspired by God. (2 Tim 3:16)

Still the Bible was written for a reason, and that reason was to tell you about Jesus Christ, and if you missed that you are probably going to miss the fact that we are not following the Scriptures but rather we are supposed to be following Jesus Christ, and that by hearing the instructions He gives us through the Holy Spirit.

And by the way, Abram did not have a Bible, but he was counted as being righteous because he heard from the word of the Lord and believe He was God. So actually saying that the Bible is necessary and that a person can't be saved by just listening to the Lord by faith won't get it done would be wrong, according to the Bible!!! But since God has now given us the Bible, it would be foolish not to think He doesn't want us to read it.

The Lord once told me:

WHAT TEACHER DOESN’T PUT A BOOK IN FRONT OF HIS STUDENTS TODAY; YET NOT JUST A BOOK BUT OVERHEAD TRANSPARENCIES, VISUALS, AND OTHER MATERIAL? FOR I TELL YOU TRULY, IF THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME THEY ARE NOT MY PUPIL, THEY ARE NOT MY STUDENT; I TELL YOU TRULY, THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLE UNLESS THEY ARE HEARING FROM ME. SO DON’T TELL THEM TO READ THE BOOK, THEM TO TAKE THE CLASS!”

It is written that they will all be taught of God. So since most people today can read it only makes sense that He would give us a textbook. Still it is not the textbook but the Lord our Teacher who we are following. So it is not "Because the Bible tells me so", it need to be "Because Jesus Christ my Lord and Teacher tells me so." And you will notice that I can and do give you some of the teachings He personally has told me. What do they say the Lord told them personally? I would suggest that if they were being taught by God they would have and want to tell you some of the great teachings the Lord has personally given them. But as it is many are saying, "Because the Bible tells me so", thereby indicating they are not hearing and being taught by God!

 

[K2CHRIST]

Anna and Simeon heard from the Lord and knew who Jesus was even though He was a child. The Pharisees and Sadducees didn't hear with their spiritual ears but were the teachers of the law. So Anna and Simeon did and said what they did "Because the Lord told them so." The Pharisees and Sadducees did and said what they did "Because the Scriptures and the tradition of there time told them so." And Jesus Christ wound up hanging on a cross.

The first words I heard the Lord tell me were, "Read Your Bible", but that was only the beginning. I hear from Him a dozen times a day. I go to the church I do "Because the Lord told me so." I wanted to go to a smaller church, but He choose a nice church. I do the work I do "Because the Lord told me so." The Bible doesn't even mention the type of work that I do. I serve in three ministries now and have served in many others, but always "Because the Lord told me to." Sometimes He changed the ministries He had me working in when I told Him I didn't like them. He sometimes tells me what clothes to wear or what foot to eat. We going waling and talking together often. He leads my life and I can clearly state that Jesus Christ is my Lord.

So when other "Christian" emphatically state and defend there position that they do things because "The Bible tells them so." doesn't make sense to me. I often hear my Lord talking to me about the Bible, but the Bible has never talked to me; I read it. If you are zealous for the Lord I believe you will read your Bible, but being zealous for the Bible is not the same things as being zealous for the Lord.

 

[WIP]

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice! And the Scriptures are important to read and study to make sure it is His voice! 1 Jn 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God... By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh if from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

I find it interesting that after Jesus was baptized he spent 40 days in the desert with Satan tempting Him. How did He test the spirits?
He answered and said, “It is written,...." Matthew 4

 

[K2CHRIST]

I find it interesting that after Jesus was baptized he spent 40 days in the desert with Satan tempting Him. How did He test the spirits?
He answered and said, “It is written,...." Matthew 4

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Jesus from the beginning did and said only what the Father told Him. Talk about a lot of practice!! Heck, even before Satan existed Jesus was. And all things, which would include Lucifer, were created through Him. So Jesus was in the flesh and tempted but this wasn't the first time Jesus was listening to Satan.

But honestly, how often do we practice listening with our spiritual ears? Most all of use go all day listening with our physical ears and perhaps a good faithful Christian turns and seeking what the Lord has to say to them a few times each day. Maybe we set for 20 minutes in the morning to listen to the Lord, but from what I have seen around the church most don't even do that. So do we even know when we are being tempted?

I'm not that different. I usually hear from the Lord about a dozen different times during the day, which is pitifully little. Usually I listen and talk to Him when I first wake up and getting ready to get out of bed. Then I get going. Then I tend to talk to Him while taking a shower, and again get going. Then I sit down with Him pray the Lord's prayer and listen to what the Father has to say to me which at that time often includes instructions to read certain sections of the Bible, And again I get going. I usually listen to Him while having breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

So those times make up about half the times during the day I listen to Him. But that is not like Jesus who did and said only what the Father told Him. And I don't get tempted during those times, but when I am busy going this way and that. And so I find that my little problems in life don't come when I am spending time listening to the Lord but when I am busy going about my business. Because I see that is what happens I tell myself I need to keep remembering to seek the Lord's voice as often as I can. Because I tell myself to seek the Lord's voice as often as I can, I also advise others to do the same things. So I preach Jesus Christ as the Word of God, because I spend my life trying to hear from Him, but I don't mean most of my life. I mean I spend my life trying to remember to seek the Lord's voice. I believe that make me more like Jesus who did and said only what the Father told Him, but I recognize I have a long way to go.

Still once while I was trying to commit myself to doing and saying only what He tells me, He started talking to me and said, "Karl, you weren't made to be the Word of God, I was." It is enough that you believe and try because of that belief." And even the angels in heaven don't say and do only what the Father tells them. They are not the Word of God, Jesus Christ is. And Jesus Christ is not the writings, He is someone we can all get to know, but not all know Him now. So a day shall come but is not now, a day that is just as it is written:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone His brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.

We are told to pray thy will be done on earth as in heaven, but do with will that? That day is not here yet, because how many really know the Lord and seek after Him when they are saying, "Because the Bible tells me so," instead of saying, "because my Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."???