'The Bible tells me so' is wrong

[jasonc]

Jim,

Before I begin teaching a class on introductory NT Greek, I have to teach basic English grammar. Why? Because our schools are not doing a very good job in teaching English grammar. If we don't understand the meaning or function of nouns, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, participles, infinitives, etc. and how they function in sentences, there is no possibility of comprehending the nuances of these parts of speech in Greek.

Then we have the added problem in the contemporary church (that manifests itself on this and other Christian forums) that there are those who claim that we don't need to understand grammar to establish the meaning of a sentence, clause or paragraph because 'the Spirit will tell me that'. This is what we are seeing in some posts here.

Seems as though we have wasted a lot of $$$ getting seminary and advanced training to try to better understand the Scriptures.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

Yet, I have found those posters struggle at my comments.

 

[Mike]

1 Corinthians 1
"26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,29 that no flesh should glory in His presence."

I agree with smaller's point. If the Bible is useful in correcting and instructing, it is so for all of His creation; not only those who teach or who take pride in their intellect.

2 Timothy 3
"16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It's useful to all of us, right? Otherwise, should take it out of the hands of lay people, and restrict it to the pulpit circa the 16th century.

 

[smaller]

1 Corinthians 1
"26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,29 that no flesh should glory in His presence."

I agree with smaller's point. If the Bible is useful in correcting and instructing, it is so for all of His creation; not only those who teach or who take pride in their intellect.

2 Timothy 3
"16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It's useful to all of us, right? Otherwise, should take it out of the hands of lay people, and restrict it to the pulpit circa the 16th century.

Bravo! History claims are part of what provided us numerous forms of "man authority" via separated/divided sacerdotalism, dead ritualism and all sorts of manipulations of the masses of believers. Dead practices i.e. IF you don't do things my way you're dead. It's very worldly oriented. I played the "worlds" game for a long time. THEY are much better at it.

Believers "naturally" get "fixated" on the worldly 'spirit of the flesh' which is contrary to and against the Spirit. The Spirit is AGAINST that carnal mind set. That natural law is called, accurately by some, SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. This is NOT the Law of The Spirit of Life. That law is antithetical to the Spirit of Life in Christ. It is the carnal spirit of the world that reigns in most assemblies.

IF some happen to think they found "life" in that, great. Move on. But that kind of spirit IS the basis for endless condemnation and divisions.

The Love of God in Christ IS meant to be lived every moment of our lives. History can not teach this. It is not possible. Ritualism can't either. No other person can "teach" this to another. Not even studying Gods Word can teach this. Each person seeks out The Spirit our Living Lord every day, to walk with them. Action of faith in faith.

How does our Lord Live and then HOW does that LIVING LIFE of HIM apply to each of us, today, is the main reason for Word studies.

I'm not going to overly denigrate any believer "talking to God." But we do have to (again personally) hold voices/thoughts in our heads to the accounts of the Spirit AND the Word because there ARE also adverse things that go on, even "within" us. And THIS Gods Word also "teaches."

It is no wonder that believers have a difficult time joining, in unity. The majority are too busy engaged in trying to "eternally" condemn one another and to justify themselves. I consider all of these types of practices false. Walking in faith requires the opposite. We get up every morning to "die" to ourselves, and LIVE in Him. His Law is in the opposite direction of "survival of the fittest." This isn't easy territory to maneuver.

Yet His Law is so Light. Love one another, as I have loved you. John 13:34. This ONE THING, this simple ONE THING, no divided assembly does. If we read the whole Bible, every day, and DIDN'T come away with only that, we wasted our entire time in studies. IF we read a single line of His Words, and came away with that, we came away with EVERYTHING there is to have.

I wasn't saved by a study of Biblical history. I wasn't saved by a priest or several, putting me through their ritualistic practices. I was saved when I read of Gods Real Love expressed, on the Cross of Christ, and Risen to Life, for ME. His Spirit showed me His Love, in writing.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

A lot of "believers" call the Word, written, wormy manna. Such a shame. Yet they too will run to it, to try to "prove their point." It's quite odd behavior. It's a form of Word denial and Word condemnation.

IF we find His Love, we will also see everyone who is locked up in condemnation, because it is also written across their own lips for all to see, and 'burned' into their minds. They will not escape until His LOVE finds them again.

There are posters who come here everyday for the sole purposes of domination and condemnation. And these are everywhere, "consistent." None of them really know or understand the worldly spirit that broadsided their flesh.

 

[Free]

The day any person claiming to "understand" the Bible puts on their big boy theological pants and walks into Paul's already written notices, and applies them personally, I'll be the first person to sit up, listen, and take note to what they have to say. Paul left "very certain" marks on how to identify a 'truth teller' from a liar/poser.

And one of those marks--whether Paul explicitly states or not--would be purposely twisting and misusing Scripture, which you have done at least twice, including once on the first page of this thread.

Pontifications about history or law or what have you pale in comparison to what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul opened the door to amazing understandings, but he did not dish out all the food in the container. He left plenty behind for others.

Look at Paul's Holy Ghost genius teachings in 1 Cor. 9:9-10 about a single obscure O.T. law sometime. A single law, with a mountain of understanding. He derived a meaning that was written exactly NOWHERE in the entire O.T. And HOW did Paul figure out that Israel was "baptised" in the RED SEA and the CLOUD and drank from the Spiritual Rock, which is Christ?! How did Paul figure out "how" the two covenants "worked" from the ALLEGORIES of the Law, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael?! In Gal. 4

Allegory!

These are the kinds of questions I ask GOD to teach me. HOW did Paul "get there?" And Paul will tell us: Follow ME as I follow Christ. How did Paul follow Christ? By, first, Gods Words. Of course there are "life" applications. Few know it, but we live, right here, right now, in the ALLEGORY.

We study the Word to follow Christ. We study Paul to follow Christ.

Moses was shown Gods BACKSIDE for what reason? (Exodus 33). To FOLLOW Christ. What do we see when we follow Jesus? His BACK SIDE. The "marks" He left on the trail in His Words. We are following from the BACK SIDE. Paul did no differently. He was "taught" by the Holy Spirit from what was already written. Jesus Himself BOWED DOWN His Own Positions and Understandings to what? Clear blue nonsense plucked out of thin air, or what was already written? Yep. Written. He was following His Own BACK SIDE. IF you ever figured out "how" Jesus pulled his PARABLES from the O.T. you'd be absolutely amazed. You think the "sheep and goat" account of Matt. 25 didn't come from the O.T? It DID.

We "follow" His Back Side until when? Until we SEE HIM FACE TO FACE. 1 Cor. 13:12

The Spirit WILL show those who are "led" to see. And these are the things we work for. To find "genuine" understandings. Applicable to our own lives. And should share. And yes, it is HARD work. Work that was NOT completed. Paul shows us the elders of the churches STILL "labored" in both Word and doctrine. 1 Tim. 5:17. IF as some propose, the APOSTLES taught them everything, why are they laboring in Word and doctrine? They should still be "laboring" today. Are they going to come up with NEW STUFF? NOPE! Whatever is built from that "labor" MUST COMPLY with what has already been laid down.

The book of Hebrews does an amazing job at delineating some of the finest salient measures in "how" this work, this "labor," transpired. It is fantastic LABOR. Because it is based on the O.T.

It is their marks, which our own "labor" must follow and "conform" with. If our "labor" can't cut their written mustard, then it's no good. They had to "labor" that understanding from what was already written.

Look at this piece of Holy Spirit genius from Hebrews 6:

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Where did this come from? The O.T.

People who don't understand ALLEGORY butcher this stretch so badly their sights are nearly incomprehensible. You can tell instantly, if someone understands ALLEGORY and who is talking out of their hat when they have NO basis of fact in ALLEGORY and WHERE this comes from out of the O.T.

Jesus put down some very "hard line" measures in these matters. IF we read the above, and we apply "vs. 7" to ourselves and "vs. 8" to others, whoever claims that doesn't have CLUE ONE. Here, Jesus puts on the filter to screen out the mad hatters of Word teachings. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Every Word MUST apply to THE READER. Emphasis. Every Word.

History is far down on the list of study priorities. History in the Bible is ALLEGORY. Did stuff really historically happen? Of course. But it's still ALLEGORY. I'd almost call hard history a petty side note. No one is 'saved' by history. History lessons are not what the Spirit teaches whatsoever. The Spirit will take "written history" and show SPIRITUAL THINGS. Just as Paul noted many many times. People can study all the in's and out's of Biblical Judaic law their entire life, and if they never understood it as ALLEGORY, as Paul clearly did, they wouldn't have learned A THING from it. The law is spiritual. Romans 7:14. It's not a history lesson. If you want to learn 'history' go study it with the world. They do a much better job of it.

But if you want to study Word and "follow Jesus", THEN listen to Jesus "allegorize" the entire Bible in ONE SENTENCE:

Luke 8:
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

IF there is any 'history' lesson in the Bible it is this: Jesus IS "the entire HIStory" of that Bible. Every line, every "jot and tittle" speaks of Him and His Ways in some way or fashion. He, of course is that SEED. But why would He describe Himself in "allegory" FORM? Now, if Jesus is in Spiritual terms SEED, which is obviously an allegory, and THE WORD is SEED, then it is all assuredly ALLEGORY.

If Jesus came back today, came up to you, looked you right in the eye, and said "I am The SEED." You'd probably think He was NUTZ.

Why would you think He wasn't NUTZ when He said it THEN? Allegory is serious theological territory.

Does anybody know that the RESURRECTION was sown in Adam, in the Garden? HOW?

Read about it in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Is history going to show any of us that? Nope. We can read the Gen. 1-5 accounts about Adam til we're blue in the face, and we won't see Jesus IN Adam. But Paul shows us He was there. I ask the Holy Spirit, HOW that is so. And, these things the Spirit will show.

Just as The Spirit shows us that Levi was "in" Abraham in Heb. Paying TITHES no less. A guy who wasn't even born yet PAYED TITHES.

Hebrews 7:9
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Anyone who says 'history' teaches these things is the real nut. There is NO WAY any history would derive that answer.

The Spirit has His Own Language. And yes, it IS written.

Provided I have understood you correctly, it seems as though you don't understand what allegory is. It seems as though you have suggested that the Bible is all allegory, in which case, we should throw it out. It is contradictory to claim that the stuff in the Bible actually happened but is allegorical. If it's all allegorical, there would be no way of knowing if any of it is historical.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allegory

And it seems as though, like K2CHRIST, you aren't following the arguments well and what is actually being said. The point is that the Bible is based on historical events. We are saved by believing in the literal, historical death and resurrection of Jesus. We know we need saving because we read of the historical event of the Fall of man.

 

[smaller]

And one of those marks--whether Paul explicitly states or not--would be purposely twisting and misusing Scripture, which you have done at least twice, including once on the first page of this thread.

I will acknowledge that I may see some things differently than you. I reject your spin of what you think that is, just because it doesn't run through your intended sifter.

Provided I have understood you correctly, it seems as though you don't understand what allegory is.

We've never even discussed particulars. It might seem appropriate to compare notes before throwing charge bombs?

It seems as though you have suggested that the Bible is all allegory, in which case, we should throw it out. It is contradictory to claim that the stuff in the Bible actually happened but is allegorical. If it's all allegorical, there would be no way of knowing if any of it is historical.

I don't deny the real events that transpired. Not whatsoever. And have said as much in this thread.

And it seems as though, like K2CHRIST, you aren't following the arguments well and what is actually being said. The point is that the Bible is based on historical events. We are saved by believing in the literal, historical death and resurrection of Jesus. We know we need saving because we read of the historical event of the Fall of man.

I've never denied that any event therein wasn't 'ACTUAL.' What meanings they convey however are NOT limited to only historical value equations by an stretch.

 

[OzSpen]

Yet, I have found those posters struggle at my comments.

Jason,

At this stage of my life, having been a Christian for over 50 years, I have to accept that this is the way it is. Therefore, I enjoy teaching the basics of English grammar before I get into Greek grammar.

The sadness is that I learned these English basics in primary school - before I got to grade 8. What I teach as an English grammar intro to the Intro to Greek class is grade 4 English grammar - way back when, but it is not taught today. Then I have to recap on a lot of English grammar as I go through the Greek course. I am blessed that my English teachers from the 1950s had a curriculum that taught these fundamentals.

Then I listen to the night time TV news and hear reporters who don't know that two nouns in the subject, joined by 'and' form a plural subject that requires a plural verb. But they give us a singular verb. The doozie to top it off is the journalists who don't know that after a preposition a pronoun takes the objective/accusative case. It is not, 'He gave His life for you and I', but, 'He gave His life for you and me'. These journalists don't seem to have a clue about these fundamentals.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

At this stage of my life, having been a Christian for over 50 years, I have to accept that this is the way it is. Therefore, I enjoy teaching the basics of English grammar before I get into Greek grammar.

The sadness is that I learned these English basics in primary school - before I got to grade 8. What I teach as an English grammar intro to the Intro to Greek class is grade 4 English grammar - way back when, but it is not taught today. Then I have to recap on a lot of English grammar as I go through the Greek course. I am blessed that my English teachers from the 1950s had a curriculum that taught these fundamentals.

Then I listen to the night time TV news and hear reporters who don't know that two nouns in the subject, joined by 'and' form a plural subject that requires a plural verb. But they give us a singular verb. The doozie to top it off is the journalists who don't know that after a preposition a pronoun takes the objective/accusative case. It is not, 'He gave His life for you and I', but, 'He gave His life for you and me'. These journalists don't seem to have a clue about these fundamentals.

Oz

Lol.The Press Journal. You would have to read the paper years ago.It often had spelling errors,and some grammar errors.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

Before I begin teaching a class on introductory NT Greek, I have to teach basic English grammar. Why? Because our schools are not doing a very good job in teaching English grammar. If we don't understand the meaning or function of nouns, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, participles, infinitives, etc. and how they function in sentences, there is no possibility of comprehending the nuances of these parts of speech in Greek.

Then we have the added problem in the contemporary church (that manifests itself on this and other Christian forums) that there are those who claim that we don't need to understand grammar to establish the meaning of a sentence, clause or paragraph because 'the Spirit will tell me that'. This is what we are seeing in some posts here.

Seems as though we have wasted a lot of $$$ getting seminary and advanced training to try to better understand the Scriptures.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveler.

Oz

Ah! Good point.
I am about to embark upon the teaching of Greek to a student.
I'd best check his English grammar first.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

Ah! Good point.
I am about to embark upon the teaching of Greek to a student.
I'd best check his English grammar first.

jim

Jim,

I use the 1965 edition of J W Wenham, The Elements of New Testament Greek (Cambridge University Press). The benefit of this edition is that the first 16 pages provide an 'Introduction: English grammar' which I use for teaching basic English grammar. You can read enough of this online to give you an idea of whether this is what you are looking for as a good summary of grammar. I have found it very useful - brief, but adequate as a revision of fundamentals of English grammar.

The 3rd edition of 2005 has a 'comparative English grammar' at p. 240. I haven't compared it with the good one in the 1965 edition.

Which English grammar summary would you favour?

Blessings from Down Under,
Oz

 

[WIP]

This discussion seems to be trailing away from the topic and some of the posts are a bit personal with sarcastic slams thrown back and forth. Let's try to get things back on track.

 

[OzSpen]

In the OP I highlighted how Andy Stanley complains about 'the Bible told me so' and gave you Dr Albert Mohler's response. Mohler is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the largest Southern Baptist seminary in the USA. In the article in the OP he wrote:

No problem, Schleiermacher responded — we can still salvage spiritual and moral value out of Christianity while jettisoning its troublesome doctrinal claims, supernatural structure, and dependence upon the Bible. He was certain that his strategy would “save” Christianity from irrelevance.

His ambition, in other words, was apologetic at its core — to defend Christianity against claims of its eclipse. The formula offered by theological liberals is the same now. Save what you can of Christianity by surrendering truth claims. Acknowledge the inevitable hostility that these doctrines face in the modern age and adjust the faith accordingly. No theological liberal declares himself the enemy of Christianity. To the contrary, he offers liberalism as the only means of avoiding Christianity’s demise in a secular age.

Of course, the “Christianity” that remains after this doctrinal surgery bears little resemblance to biblical Christianity and, as Scripture makes abundantly clear, it cannot save.

Let’s be clear — Andy Stanley does not mean to deny the central truth claims of Christianity. In his message, “Who Needs God? The Bible Told Me So,” he affirms the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. But he does so while undercutting our only means of knowing of Christ and his resurrection from the dead — the Bible.

And he does so directly and without risk of misunderstanding. In his message he stated: “So I need you to listen really carefully and the reason is this — perhaps you were taught, as I was taught, ‘Jesus love me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.’ That is where our trouble began.”

That is where our trouble began? What trouble?

I join with Mohler in calling on all of us to be discerning in how the evangelical church can undermine the importance of the Bible in the life of the Christian. Here in Australia, I see this happening in a number of ways:

• Yesterday I visited a church where there was not a Bible reading during the service.
• The pastor in his sermon used a mish mash of Scripture with PPTs that were barely visible in font size for older folks like me in the pew. He bounced from OT to NT to defend the virgin birth. I take my hat off to him that he was not trying to squirm out of the supernatural virgin birth.
• One of the greatest ways we diminish the importance of the absolute truth of Scripture is in life and death issues. So many Christians I know have gone soft on life in the womb (from conception), not accepting some of this material:

Foetus as fully human: Biblical arguments
1. Unborn babies are called “children,” the same word used of infants and young children (Luke 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; Exodus 21:22), and sometimes even of adults (1 Kings 3:17).
2. The unborn are created by God (Psalm 139:13) just as God created Adam and Eve in his image (Genesis 1:27).
3. The life of the unborn is protected by the same punishment for injury or death (Ex. 21:22) as that of an adult (Gen. 9:6).
4. Christ was human (the God-man) from the point he was conceived in Mary’s womb (Matt. 1:20-21; Luke 1:26-27).
5. The image of God includes “male and female” (Gen. 1:27), but it is a scientific fact that maleness or femaleness (sex) is determined at the moment of conception.
6. Unborn children possess personal characteristics such as sin (Ps. 51:5) and joy that are distinctive of human beings.
7. Personal pronouns are used to describe unborn children (Jeremiah 1:5 LXX; Matt. 1:20-21) just as any other human being.
8. The unborn are said to be known intimately and personally by God as he would know any other person (Ps. 139:15-16; Jer. 1:5).
9. The unborn are even called by God before birth (Gen. 25:22-23; Judges. 13:2-7; Isaiah. 49:1, 5; Galatians 1:15).
10. Guilt from an abortion is experienced, therefore, because a person has broken the law of God (sinned), “You shall not murder” (Ex. 20:13; Matt. 5:21; 19:18; Romans 13:9). Forgiveness can be received through confession to Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9).

“Taken as a whole, these Scripture texts leave no doubt that an unborn child is just as much a person in God’s image as a little child or an adult is. They are created in God’s image from the very moment of conception, and their prenatal life is precious in God’s eyes and protected by his prohibition against murder” (Norman Geisler 1989. Christian Ethics, p. 148).

This latter material is taken from my article, Abortion and Life: A Christian Perspective

A similar perspective applies to euthanasia and assisted suicide. I'm attending a university lecture this week where the Canadian professor is presenting in support of euthanasia. I expect to make a contribution at Q&A.

When we go soft on Scripture, churches will defend abortion, euthanasia, and LGBTI gender issues. I don't see them supporting theft, break and enters, and rape. However, why not if human beings are the arbiters of values. Relativism can creep into churches when the Bible is downgraded.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

I use the 1965 edition of J W Wenham, The Elements of New Testament Greek

That's what I have.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

That's what I have.

jim

Excellent! He's a Brit who built on Nunn's previous introductory Greek grammar. Speaking of the original Greek for the NT is important for this topic. 'The Bible tells me so' is dealing with what the original documents tell me so.

In a church cell group last week, we got into a discussion with the oldies about how to explain the use of Greek and Hebrew texts when we don't have the originals. I'm leading the study this week and I'll be sharing this example:

People commonly ask: We don’t have the original biblical documents so it is pointless to talk about the inspiration of documents we do not have. Do you think so? I have found R. Laird Harris’s explanation helpful in explaining the need to have authoritative original documents behind the copies, even though we currently do not have access to the originals (autographa). He wrote:

“Reflection will show that the doctrine of verbal inspiration is worthwhile even though the originals have perished. An illustration may be helpful. Suppose we wish to measure the length of a certain pencil. With a tape measure we measure it as 6 1/2 inches. A more carefully made office ruler indicates 6 9/16 inches. Checking with an engineer’s scale, we find it to be slightly more than 6.58 inches. Careful measurement with a steel scale under laboratory conditions reveals it to be 6.577 inches. Not satisfied still, we send the pencil to Washington, where master gauges indicate a length of 6.5774 inches. The master gauges themselves are checked against the standard United States yard marked on platinum bar preserved in Washington. Now, suppose that we should read in the newspapers that a clever criminal had run off with the platinum bar and melted it down for the precious metal. As a matter of fact, this once happened to Britain’s standard yard! What difference would this make to us? Very little. None of us has ever seen the platinum bar. Many of us perhaps never realized it existed. Yet we blithely use tape measures, rulers, scales, and similar measuring devices. These approximate measures derive their value from their being dependent on more accurate gauges. But even the approximate has tremendous value—if it has had a true standard behind it” (Harris 1969:88-89).​

Oz

Works consulted
Harris, R. L. 1957, 1969. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[Jim Parker]

Excellent! He's a Brit who built on Nunn's previous introductory Greek grammar. Speaking of the original Greek for the NT is important for this topic. 'The Bible tells me so' is dealing with what the original documents tell me so.

In a church cell group last week, we got into a discussion with the oldies about how to explain the use of Greek and Hebrew texts when we don't have the originals. I'm leading the study this week and I'll be sharing this example:

People commonly ask: We don’t have the original biblical documents so it is pointless to talk about the inspiration of documents we do not have. Do you think so? I have found R. Laird Harris’s explanation helpful in explaining the need to have authoritative original documents behind the copies, even though we currently do not have access to the originals (autographa). He wrote:

“Reflection will show that the doctrine of verbal inspiration is worthwhile even though the originals have perished. An illustration may be helpful. Suppose we wish to measure the length of a certain pencil. With a tape measure we measure it as 6 1/2 inches. A more carefully made office ruler indicates 6 9/16 inches. Checking with an engineer’s scale, we find it to be slightly more than 6.58 inches. Careful measurement with a steel scale under laboratory conditions reveals it to be 6.577 inches. Not satisfied still, we send the pencil to Washington, where master gauges indicate a length of 6.5774 inches. The master gauges themselves are checked against the standard United States yard marked on platinum bar preserved in Washington. Now, suppose that we should read in the newspapers that a clever criminal had run off with the platinum bar and melted it down for the precious metal. As a matter of fact, this once happened to Britain’s standard yard! What difference would this make to us? Very little. None of us has ever seen the platinum bar. Many of us perhaps never realized it existed. Yet we blithely use tape measures, rulers, scales, and similar measuring devices. These approximate measures derive their value from their being dependent on more accurate gauges. But even the approximate has tremendous value—if it has had a true standard behind it” (Harris 1969:88-89).​

Oz

Works consulted
Harris, R. L. 1957, 1969. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Evidence the Demands a Verdict has some good information on the transmission of scripture.
One bit was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (1947) which included a complete scroll of Isaiah that was 900 years earlier than anything existing at that time. Comparison of that scroll (~300 BC) with the previously oldest manuscript (~600AD) revealed not one significant difference.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

Evidence the Demands a Verdict has some good information on the transmission of scripture.
One bit was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (1947) which included a complete scroll of Isaiah that was 900 years earlier than anything existing at that time. Comparison of that scroll (~300 BC) with the previously oldest manuscript (~600AD) revealed not one significant difference.

jim

I've used Josh McDowell's material for years. On transmission of the text, he has some excellent material.

 

[K2CHRIST]

sigh
I hear that kind of nonsense over and over primarily from people with no theological training, a poor command of the English language and a very exaggerated opinion of their ability to hear from the Holy Spirit based on their weekly 10 minutes of prayer.

The Bible is literature. If someone does not understand how to understand literature, he will not understand the Bible. If a person cannot tell the difference between a metaphor and an literal, objective, description he has no business telling anyone what the Bible says.

The Bibles that people read in this forum is almost exclusively an English translations. If a person does not have a decent command of the English language then he will not understand the Bible. (A good example is the ongoing failure of a few in this forum to comprehend the fact that words like "forever" and "eternal" and "everlasting" all mean the same thing.)

Theology is NOT an area in which the average U.S. high school graduate (who generally requires remedial English if he enters college) can expect to excel. It actually takes years of specialized training which is why churches often require a seminary education in order to be hired as a pastor. They expect their pastors and teachers to be properly equipped. In fact, the first college founded in the USA (then British colonies) was Harvard. It was established as a seminary to train pastors as was Yale.

Now it seems that every Tom, Dick and Harriet with their King James Version (written in a language they do not speak) thinks they are expert theologians because "they got the HOLYghost."

So when I hear hear someone say, "The Holy Spirit revealed to me...." I cringe because I know from experience that those words will very likely be followed by a bushel of mixed confusion and nonsense.

iakov the fool

There is something written about "According to your faith". And also something about how you judge so shall you be judged.

If someone is thinking "based on their weekly 10 minutes of prayer." about another person, is it because that is how they view prayer.

That maybe true from some, but God is Omni-present and so it is possible that a person could pray unceasingly. And prayer is communion (a conversation back and forth) with God. As for me, I normally pick up a conversation about a dozen times a day. That is to say, the Lord and I talk (as in having a conversation back and forth) about a dozen times a day. That admittedly is not very good considering He is always with me, but it is how it is, and is less than the Scriptures say it should be. So what of the person that "cringes" when they hear a person testifying about hearing from the Holy Spirit regularly. Well that don't believe the Bible, because they don't believe it is even possible to think that a person could pray unceasingly like the Bible tells us to do!

When Jesus came in the flesh He told the Jews, Jn 5:46,47 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

A person can have all the "Theology" they want and not believe that the "Great I Am" will talk to them. So they will not know the Christ as the Word of God, meaning that He will and wants to talk to them. He wants them to listen, but they won't. They look to the writings, they look to teaching by other men, they look to traditions, but they don't actually look to Jesus Christ. With their spiritual ears they don't hear, and with their spiritual eyes they don't see. So what ability do they have to discern between good and evil?

They should be teachers, based upon their studying, but because they don't practice listening with their spiritual ears (and that because of their lack of faith that and Omni-present God actually does exist) they are not qualified to teach and again need someone to explain the elementary principles of the oracles (sayings) of God. But this is very hard to explain to them because they have gotten into pride. They think they know, so how will they now listen? If they truly had repented of their ways, they would seek God and what He had to say, but they don't even believe He can talk to others, so obviously they don't believe He will talk to them. So they don't practice listen to His voice and thus do not have their senses trained to discern good and evil. So the discourage people from seeking the Lord Jesus Christ instead of encourage people to seek the Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 5:11 - 14 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come again to need mild and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Of course not listening to the Lord never keep people from teaching what they wanted.

Jesus explained the He stood at the door and knock, and if anyone would hear His voice and open the door He would come into them. (Rev 3:20)

But Isaiah wrote "They have abandoned the Lord, they have despised the Holy One of Israel. (Is 1:4)

Someone might write "If someone does not understand how to understand literature, he will not understand the Bible", but the Bible explains that it is the Spirit that gives understanding. So what do they know the Spirit if they are looking to their understanding of literature to figure out the Bible instead of God?

So they read "Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right or to the left, but they can't comprehend it, or even how it could be possible. (Is 30:21)

They can read, "This is My believed Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!" (Mat 17:5) But it is just a historical fact and is of no concern to us today.

They can read "My son, give attention to my wisdom, Incline your ear to my understanding." but it comes across to them as 'incline your eye to my book'. instead of meaning listening to Jesus Christ.

So they read Paul's writings "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?" (that is to bring Christ down)"... and "But what does it say? 'THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart' -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (Rom 10: 6 & 8) Yet they tell themselves if they just memorize the Scriptures they will have the word in their mouth and on their heart. So they preach the Bible instead of Jesus Christ

So it is that the Lord told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word but not as it is so often preached today. I want you to preach I AM the Word of God."

And so it is that the Holy Spirit told me, "Karl, we don't use the Lord to preach the Scriptures, we use the Scriptures to preach the Lord."

So whose Theology is wrong? Who came to know the Lord Jesus Christ?

Well, I testify that there is One that I know. He talks to me. I have not always heard from Him, so I understand what it is like to not hear from Him. I spent over 40 years of my life before He first spoke to me and said to Me "Read Your Bible". So I am aware of what it is like to not hear from Him, but I also know about hearing.

 

[Jim Parker]

There is something written about "According to your faith". And also something about how you judge so shall you be judged.

"JUdge not lest you be judged" is about judging someone for their sins, not about their relative skills in interpretation of scripture.

A person can have all the "Theology" they want and not believe that the "Great I Am" will talk to them. So they will not know the Christ as the Word of God, meaning that He will and wants to talk to them. He wants them to listen, but they won't. They look to the writings, they look to teaching by other men, they look to traditions, but they don't actually look to Jesus Christ. With their spiritual ears they don't hear, and with their spiritual eyes they don't see. So what ability do they have to discern between good and evil?

(Edited by staff) I have repeatedly heard people with poor reading skills and less comprehension ability as well as slick televangelists state that "The Holy Ghost revealed to me...(followed by some ridiculous bit of drivel)".
A good command of the English language IS necessary to understand the communication of God to man written in an English translation of the Bible.
Would you trust a 4th grader's exegesis? Then why would you trust the exegesis of someone with 4th grade reading skills?

Of course the Holy Spirit is able to "lead us into all truth." But, my experience is that very few are actually in touch with the Holy Spirit on that level. And to depend primarily on one's alleged ability to be "led by the spirit" while disregarding or refuting the teaching which has come down to us in tact over the 2000 years of church, is foolishness and arrogance.

They can read, "This is My believed Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!" (Mat 17:5) But it is just a historical fact and is of no concern to us today.

Really???!
The fact that Jesus is the son of God is of no concern to us today?
Is that really what you believe?

 

[K2CHRIST]

"JUdge not lest you be judged" is about judging someone for their sins, not about their relative skills in interpretation of scripture.

(Edited by staff) I have repeatedly heard people with poor reading skills and less comprehension ability as well as slick televangelists state that "The Holy Ghost revealed to me...(followed by some ridiculous bit of drivel)".
A good command of the English language IS necessary to understand the communication of God to man written in an English translation of the Bible.
Would you trust a 4th grader's exegesis? Then why would you trust the exegesis of someone with 4th grade reading skills?

Of course the Holy Spirit is able to "lead us into all truth." But, my experience is that very few are actually in touch with the Holy Spirit on that level. And to depend primarily on one's alleged ability to be "led by the spirit" while disregarding or refuting the teaching which has come down to us in tact over the 2000 years of church, is foolishness and arrogance.

Really???!
The fact that Jesus is the son of God is of no concern to us today?
Is that really what you believe?

Frist, we making judgments all through the day, and very few of us actually sit behind a desk as a judge sentencing people for their crimes. So our judgments include a lot more than someone's sins. They become lead to our belief. If you believe that God is with you should believe He can talk to you, or do you think Him unable to communicate, or perhaps rude so as to not answer a question put to Him?

Now I have been explaining that we need to be listening to the Lord throughout the day and Mr. Jim Parker wrote "The Holy Spirit revealed to me...." I cringe", and also ", "a very exaggerated opinion of their ability to hear from the Holy Spirit based on their weekly 10 minutes of prayer." That is His judgments concerning my writings. Of course that is not what I wrote, but what I wrote concerning hearing testimony on hearing from the Lord regularly.

So how, why, or what caused Jim to make those conclusion. And by the way, Jim is not along in those conclusion. Many are thinking like that, so this is not about Jim, but about a problem in Christianity, and it is a problem with our conclusions about God.

We think that even if someone says they hear from the Lord regularly, they must be lying and they must only pray about 10 minutes a week. Jim shows his thinking not mine. He "cringes" at even the suggestion of being able to hear from the Lord regularly, and thinks other could only be praying 10 minutes a week, so his judgment concerning anyone testifying about regularly hearing from God is a liar. His belief leads to judgments and vice versa.

Our logic should make us aware that if God is always with us then we can always talk to Him and hear a reply, but out pride tells us we know all and thus won't even consider reproof. And Jesus says He reproves those He loves. And He says that in Rev 3:19, right before He says He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice.

Jim - I never said I pray 10 minutes a week, I have said I hear from the Lord a dozen times a day, and that as a confession because I should listen to Him more, So who told you 10 minutes? Why and how did that thought come to you? And why do you cringing at the suggestion of such a thing?

Now, Jim might have already answered the above question. He wrote: "Of course the Holy Spirit is able to "lead us into all truth." But, my experience is that very few are actually in touch with the Holy Spirit on that level. And to depend primarily on one's alleged ability to be "led by the spirit" while disregarding or refuting the teaching which has come down to us in tact over the 2000 years of church, is foolishness and arrogance.

It is also written that we all know in part, so the Spirit leading us into all truth is not accomplished here. But does that mean we should not be lead by Him or that we shouldn't believe others can be lead by Him. Maybe we can't actually depend on the Holy Spirit, and to believe so is "foolishness and arrogance".

Again I want to point out that it seems Jim is not alone in his belief, and I don't want to be seen a personally attacking Jim, but I believe what he has written demonstrates an issue that we all encounter. CAN WE TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT TO LEAD US - OR IS THINKING SUCH A THING "FOOLISHNES AND ARROGANCE"

That is the point I want to get at. And I believe that is the issue! If I believe He can be trusted I will turn to Him and listen to what Is said to us via the Holy Spirit. In fact, if I can trust God I will turn and ask Jesus Christ question a number of times each day and listen to what the Holy Spirit tells me. That would be a logical conclusion.

If I don't reach that conclusion, I will not seek answers from the Lord and will have trouble believing that other can get answers from Him also. I will judge that anyone claiming to do so is foolish and arrogant.

Of course the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit and we need to use discernment. And the Bible is helpful with that. For example it show that the first words from that snake in the garden were "Indeed, has God said". That snake has always been trying to get us to question our ability to hear from God?

So we are back to the questions I wrote above: So who told you 10 minutes? Why and how did that thought come to you? And why do you cringing at the suggestion of such a thing?

We all have battles with powers, principalities, and dark forces, and the Scriptures are important to study, but it is not "Because the Bible tells me so" but we are supposed to believe in Jesus Christ who does indeed talk to us and said He would never leave us.

Yes the devil is tricky. He gets people to say things they shouldn't say, including me at times. That doesn't mean the we should seek the voice of the Lord and believe He can and will talk to us. Perhaps the false prophet (which is a spirit and there are many of them see Rev 20:10 & 1 Jn 4:1) gets people who hear to say something wrong. And the devil get people to question whether God says. But none of that means we shouldn't seek the voice of the Lord, because the Father said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased, listen to Him". And He said He would never leave us.

So we are to encourage people to listen to the Lord everyday that is called "Today" But to do that we might have to believe it is possible for everyone to hear from the Lord and be lead by Him, regardless of the ability to read and write themselves.

So Jim poses a question "Would you trust a 4th grader's exegesis?

My friends, I work in a Christian healing room ministry. We once had children drawing pictures they felt the Lord gave them for the people waiting. Their pictures were awesome. For example, once a lady came in and one of the children gave her a picture of a leg with a spike in it. She had come in because she was having some pain she wanted prayed for. When she saw the picture she remembered that she had once had surgery where the doctors has put a bar in her leg. She went back to the doctors and found that the bar had a problem and that was what was causing her pain.

So do I believe a 4th grader can hear from the Lord and be lead by Him. You beat I do!! I have many more examples like the above. So who says they can't? Is that snake still around?

 

[K2CHRIST]

This thread caught my attention with the phrase "Because the Bible tells me so, is wrong".

Of course we as Christians need to read and study the Bible. It is important! But we are Christians if we are followers of Christ. Jesus Christ is alive and we can hear His voice. God is spirit and I understand we don't hear Him very well, but we are still supposed to be doing just that!!

So saying, "Because the Bible tells me so", is actually wrong. Not because we shouldn't read and study the Bible but because the Bible tells us that we are to listening to our Lord Jesus Christ, via His Holy Spirit.

It should be, "Because Jesus Christ tells me so", but we are often men of little faith. We need to recognize that about ourselves, and that recognition should lead us to seek Him more. Sadly it often people tend to seek Him lease and believe in Him less because it is not always easy to pick up what He is telling us. And that is compounded by the fact the devil doesn't want us seeking Him either so the devil has us questioning whether hearing from the Lord Jesus Christ is even possible, and the devils brings in confusion by pretending to be the Holy Spirit and whispering falsehoods into our spiritual ears.

Never-the-less, we still need to believe the Lord is with us and can be heard from We still need to seek His voice and instructions to us. We can not be followers of Jesus Christ unless we listen to His instructions. We can't be followers of Jesus Christ unless we seek His voice. We can't be followers unless we believe He can talk to us! This is what the Bible tells us. So if indeed your are going to say, "Because the Bible tells me so," it should be in reference to "That Jesus Christ talks to us."

The study is great, but if you (any of you) don't know the Lord Jesus Christ, meaning that you and Him talk back and forth, know that your study will not save you. There will indeed be many that cast our demons in His name, healed the sick in His name, and even prophesied in His name, only to be told by Him that He never knew them. It won't be me, though I have done those things. It won't be me because He calls me His friend and tells me He loves me. I hear that, and I hear so much more.

Some have clearly doubt me, but what's that to me. I know Him. But to them it could be a problem I do not wish on anyone. So I tried to correct that wrong belief. Jesus Christ is real. He is real for anyone that wishes to listen to Him. It is written, seek and you shall find and that all those who seek find. If you indeed find Him, you will know what I am saying. You will hear Him tell you He loves you. It brought tears to my eyes the first time I heard it. You will hear Him call you His friend, which is a great feeling. But remember, it is a relationship, and a relationship is something that is developed. You might not hear all that the first time you talk to Him, but keep listening to Him and seeking His voice. That is to say, get to know Him our Lord Jesus Christ!

And don't listen to the snake who says, "Indeed, did God say?" He just wants to create doubt in you.

 

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Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.