'The Bible tells me so' is wrong

[OzSpen]

That is simply postmodern relativism that is "speaking". There is no such thing as "propositional truth" to a postmodern "thinker", and that is NOT a cut on anyone, but a description of the thought process where one person can say "Well that is YOUR truth, but it is NOT mine.".

By Grace,

Who is the postmodern relativistic person speaking to whom you refer?

It doesn't matter whether a person is a postmodern relativist or modernist liberal, the facts are that when it comes to signing a court document of will, propositional truth does matter - is critically important.

No postmodern relativist or person promoting pneumatological experientialism can evade propositional truth in many facets of his/her life. Try evading the propositional truth that 5 + 6 = 11.

Oz

 

[smaller]

No postmodern relativist or person promoting pneumatological experientialism can evade propositional truth in many facets of his/her life. Try evading the propositional truth that 5 + 6 = 11.
Oz

You are dealing with two entirely different arenas above.

Christian theology is assuredly not the same field as worldly logic and the "spirit" of man's ethics applied in law and reasoning. They are not the same animal, as much as you try to force that to be the case.

Are we forced into dealing with the world and it's ways? Of course. That's an entirely different world. Any believer in their right mind will hate the world and it's ways and will come to understand that the world and it's ways hates us.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

The Spirit of Christ does NOT reason with the spirit of the world employing the "reasoning" of that world. He RESISTS it, actively. Gal. 5:17.

Partial sighted worldly intellect is that and nothing more.

1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

If you ever wonder why I resist worldly reasoning, now you know. I was forced to sit at their table, and detested their works and their ways the whole time. And still do. And I hated the "domination spirit" that world functions under. The spirit of legal ethics is not my friend, though I made it my limited servant to the extent that I had to pay extortion money to employ it for it's "protection services". In the world, we can have all justice we can buy. But if we don't have enough money to buy it, we won't get justice. The entities with more money will get their justice, as they buy and pay for. That's the reality of worldly justice. The spirit of scientific reasoning is only good to the extent of the limited input of data sets used to derive it's outcomes. Do these things have their places? Of course. No one has to deny the obvious when it stares us all in the face.

The reasoning your positions employ tries to blend these two arenas, reasoning one, with the other. It won't and can't happen regardless of how much "force" of worldly reasoning your positions try to apply. I might even say the red herring swam into your mind and resurfaces from time to time to try to make it's domination case against Spiritual Reasoning.

5+6 = 11. So what? Do you want God to come down and bow before that fact? If you saw Gods Hand in the equation you might see that there is also an infinite amount of space divisible between the figures that can't be reduced, logically, to zero and you'd see the equation for the reality of a very limited set of capture in time for what it is. Trying to beat up all the infinitesimals in the equation with that little stick is worthless.

 

[K2CHRIST]

You did not respond to the 'historical facts' that I gave you as to whether they are historical facts or something else.

You stated: 'Do we know what the historical facts are better than the current reality?' I find that to be an incoherent question?

The title of the thread is "'The Bible tells me so' is wrong". You are getting sidetracked. But let me help.

Columbus discovering American is certainly not a historical fact but rather a historical perspective. The Indians were already here, so how do you say he discovered it? It is because it was discovered from the perspective of a group of Europeans, and not all of them. It appears the Vikings had already found it also. So what you call an 'historical fact" was just from the perspective of some and not all.

This is important to this thread "Because the Bible tells me so' is wrong', because we all have our perspective, but it is a very limited perspective. It is only based upon the narrow set of information we pick up and only from the perspective of a person. God's perspective is not like that. He is and has been Omni-present from before time began. His ability to think, reason, and remember far exceeds what we could imagine. And He asked if we have ears to hear and concerning some He said with their ears they don't hear.

He also said He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door, He will come into them.

That brings us back to the question of whether it is because the Bible says or should it be because the Lord says?

Of course the Bible doesn't say, as in speak. It is a written record! We can have someone read the Bible, so they are speaking, nevertheless the Bible is a record and not a living and active being who can reason with us and answer our questions. But the One who has sometimes gone by "I AM" is a living and active being, and He is clothes with a robe dipped in blood; meaning He was crucified by people who refused to listen to Him, but He rose again. That means we have a curtain situation to where we can hear from Him. So while the history is important, it is only important because of what it means to us today!!

And what it means is that saying "The Bible tells me so," instead of saying "My Lord Jesus the Christ, tells me so" would be a wrong conclusion. WE NEED TO LISTEN TO HIS VOICE AND OPEN THAT DOOR!

 

[K2CHRIST]

Not sure how true this is but hearing conversations, some Christians were discussing that it is possible Christopher Columbus is Jewish???

I have to love your enthusiasm, but wonder who is Jesus to you if not the One who talks to you?

 

[K2CHRIST]

There is something that just baffles me:

I get up most morning and 'good morning' to the Lord and I get a response back. Though, honestly the conversation is often 'do I have to get up yet, Lord?" Still the point is, there is someone I have conversation with every day. It was not always like that. Most of my life I did not hear with my spiritual ears. The first words I heard were, "Read Your Bible", but they were certainly not the last words.

Now that I can use my spiritual ears, I can hear a lot of things. There is One who is my Lord. That means while we talk about lots of things, He gives me instructions, which I have the freedom to do or not do, but because I call Him Lord I try to do them or tell Him why I don't want to.

For example, I wanted to go to a small very spirit filled church, but He wanted me in a large slightly more conservative spirit filled church. He said He needed me there. So I go where He asked, and He put me with the more spiritual group in that church and all if fine for me.

Of course that is a bigger example. Perhaps I should give a smaller example. Yesterday He woke me up in the morning and told me it was time to get up. I started to get our of bed and He told me that I should kiss my wife first. I head Him tell me that, from that little small peaceful voice of His. Now I usually kiss my wife when I get up, but sometimes I try not to disturb her. It was dark out and I was not going to disturb her, but because He said I turned to give her a kiss and as I started to kiss her the alarm on her phone went off flashing light through the room. So because of the voice instructions of the Lord she was awoken with both the alarm and a kiss at exactly the same time.

Now there are people saying the believe because the Bible tells them so, and I wonder how they can say that? Don't they know what it is like living a life of listening to Him by faith? I don't believe in Him because the Bible tell me so, but because He talks to me.

There are people that believe I am just hearing myself when I tell them He told me something, but my timing is not so awesome to know when to get up and give my wife a kiss exactly when her alarm goes off when I didn't even know what time it was. So are they hearing from Him?

I see people get seemingly zealous for Him and talk about faith, but my faith comes from hearing Him talk to me. And that from the first words, "Read Your Bible" to the daily words about getting up and kissing my wife. And they don't seem to grasp anything about hearing form Him?

I see that they get zealous for the Lord, but is it according to their knowing Him or their knowing what was written about Him? My zealousness is for Him, because I know Him. From what I read on this thread, their zealousness seems to be based upon there knowing the Scriptures, not Him.

This is very sad to me. It is also very frustrating to me. I am trying to tell people about Jesus Christ the Him who wants to talk to them and those people that read and study the Bible are often them very ones who don't seem to know about this. He has become some 'historical fact', or they scoff at the very idea that God would ask me to go to the donut shop with Him so we can spend some time talking together before I get to working. Or they seem zealous for Jesus Christ but don't know how true this hearing things is.

Jesus explained that His sheep hear His voice. That is recorded. Jesus said His words were spirit and are life, and ink on some pages are not spiritual words. They are not that small voice speaking to you, they were that small voice speaking to those who wrote them down, and we should hear like those who wrote the Bible, right? And Paul testified about them that had a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. (Rm 10:2) And Paul's heart desire and his prayer to God was for them. So Paul explained the Word was near them, yet also quoted "God have them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not"

So I guess the Bible explains it all, but my heart still goes out to them. If they would only listen for the voice of the Lord and open that door. But if they scoff at the idea of hearing from Him and say they don't know about the hearing thing, how will they ever hear? Has believing in God come to mean He is in some far off place called heaven so we have to depend on following a book, or should believing in Him means the Bible tells us He is with us and will never leave us to we too can talk to and hear from the Great I Am?

I do not believe our faith is based upon what the Bible says, but rather the Bible clearly explains our faith is based upon hearing the our Lord Jesus Christ says! But many have gotten that wrong!

 

[Jesus_Is_His_Name]

I have to love your enthusiasm, but wonder who is Jesus to you if not the One who talks to you?

No need to wonder. I do know HIM. Thank you for asking.

 

[smaller]

I do not believe our faith is based upon what the Bible says, but rather the Bible clearly explains our faith is based upon hearing the our Lord Jesus Christ says! But many have gotten that wrong!

That is only you, claiming a difference.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Whatever "understandings" of God in Christ we have, are built by the Words of God, spoken, recorded, through the prophets who spoke His Words, the Apostles who did likewise. Their Words, OF GOD, are our "measure" of understanding truth from fiction.

Voices in our heads are not necessarily the 'same as.'

Here, Paul shows us some workings in his own head:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

So, you say, for example, that NONE of this transpires in you? I'd say you're probably not listening to what it's saying, written, recorded.

Here, Jesus tells us, what goes on inside the mind:

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Knowing this, how much do you trust your own "thoughts?" IF you say none of this happens, you are assuredly not listening.

The voices in our heads will always and only TELL half the story and half a loaf. But they are SELDOM truthful to the Word.

Did God tell you this morning, that when you got up, out of bed, that evil was present with you? I'd suggest the subject is NEVER brought up, because you haven't brought that up, nor have you even looked.

Paul tells us this. It's A LAW:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

IF the voices in our heads can't be honest with us, they are not to be trusted. The Word is trustworthy over 'dishonest' voices in our heads who tell half truths.

There are reasons to bring "every thought" captive, and hold it up to the Word for accuracy measures. IF the God who is present with us in our hearts/heads isn't honest about the whole package, then it's a dishonest partial truth teller in our heads.

Ephesians 2:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

That's why we look to WORD, written.

 

[Jesus_Is_His_Name]

That is only you, claiming a difference.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Whatever "understandings" of God in Christ we have, are built by the Words of God, spoken, recorded, through the prophets who spoke His Words, the Apostles who did likewise. Their Words, OF GOD, are our "measure" of understanding truth from fiction.

Voices in our heads are not necessarily the 'same as.'

Here, Paul shows us some workings in his own head:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

So, you say, for example, that NONE of this transpires in you? I'd say you're probably not listening to what it's saying, written, recorded.

Here, Jesus tells us, what goes on inside the mind:

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Knowing this, how much do you trust your own "thoughts?" IF you say none of this happens, you are assuredly not listening.

The voices in our heads will always and only TELL half the story and half a loaf. But they are SELDOM truthful to the Word.

Did God tell you this morning, that when you got up, out of bed, that evil was present with you? I'd suggest the subject is NEVER brought up, because you haven't brought that up, nor have you even looked.

Paul tells us this. It's A LAW:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

IF the voices in our heads can't be honest with us, they are not to be trusted. The Word is trustworthy over 'dishonest' voices in our heads who tell half truths.

There are reasons to bring "every thought" captive, and hold it up to the Word for accuracy measures. IF the God who is present with us in our hearts/heads isn't honest about the whole package, then it's dishonest.

:amen

 

[K2CHRIST]

Whatever "understandings" of God in Christ we have, are built by the Words of God, spoken, recorded, through the prophets who spoke His Words, the Apostles who did likewise. Their Words, OF GOD, are our "measure" of understanding truth from fiction.

Not that God has spoken but that He speaks!

A Rhema word is an utterance. The Greek word used in Rom 10:17 is Rhema. So it is an utterance from God. He spoke to those that wrote the Bible, but that was an utterance to them, not us. The record therefore is so we should listen to Him, like they did. That is why Jesus kept asking about having "ears to hear. And is why He told the Religious leader in that time, who studied the Scriptures, that they did not hear His voice.

Having faith in an Jesus Christ who said He sheep hear HIs voice, and also that He would never leave us, means we should be hearing words spoken directly to us. Faith comes from hearing those utterances He make to us. It is why Paul asked the Galatians if they received the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith. It is why Abram was counted as being righteous because He heard the Lord talking to Him in a vision (something you pick up inside you) and believe it was God talking to Him. It is why John explain that the Word (Jesus Christ) was in the beginning with God and was God and that His name is called, "The Word of God". It is why Isaiah wrote "Hear, O heaven, and listen of Earth" and explain that God had raised children but they did not know Him. It is why the Psalmist wrote "Listen, O my people, to my instruction; Incline your ears to the words of my mouth." (Ps 78:1) Why king Solomon wrote: For the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. (Prov 2:6) and also "Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice" (Prov 8:1)

Yet it is also written, "Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand." (Is 6:9)

So it was that Simeon and Anna heard the voice of the Lord and knew the Christ though He was just a child, yet to some it was said "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word"( Jn 8:43) And yet to all it was written, "I stand at the door and knock and if anyone hears My voice and opens the door" (Rev 3:20)

So it is not the Bible says, but the Lord says, just like is explained in the Bible.

Yet to Ezekiel is was said, "But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. (Ez 3:6,7)

So we need to take head to what is written in the Bible and seek the voice of the Lord and listen to Him like, Abram, Paul, John, Simeon, king Solomon, Anna, the Psalmist, and Ezekiel. His sheep do hear His voice. I testify to that!

 

[smaller]

So it is not the Bible says, but the Lord says, just like is explained in the Bible.

Well, at least you got the picture that there isn't any difference. Trying to say that God has relegated us to voice in our heads claiming to be God Words is not always accurate. When I hear these kinds of claims, the first place I go is, well, tell me the BAD stuff God told you about yourself. It is there that the head game usually falls apart.

Did God remind you to hate your self? To hate your life? Did He tell you WHY this hatred is needed? That's when we get to the 'good stuff.' But again, that's where the head games of Gods supposed speakings usually fall apart.

Did God perchance tell you that your flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit? Gal. 5:17. And this His Spirit is against YOUR flesh, actively so? And how and why that is?

Did God perchance tell you you died today and will again, tomorrow? 1 Cor. 15:31. Did God tell you WHY?

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

It's pretty easy to buy into all the good and nice things of God in Christ. There is much more difficulty in hearing the things we don't like or care to hear, from HIS WRITTEN WORD.

Did God ever show you, as he showed Paul, that Paul was the "chief of sinners" after salvation, and how Paul managed to make that quite factual conclusion? 1 Tim. 1:15.

Did God ever have the Divine Decency to tell you as Paul spoke, honestly, that he DID EVIL and things he hated, after salvation. Romans 7:15, Romans 7:19? And why and how this happens?

Did God ever have the Divine Decency to tell you, personally, that the sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us is and remains under DIVINE CONDEMNATION in Christ? Romans 8:3. Did God ever have the Divine Decency to tell you that "ye are dead?" And that our LIFE, that supposedly is speaking to us in our heads is in fact HIDDEN? Col. 3:3. Did God tell you that our body is DEAD because of sin? Romans 8:10. Did God EVER tell you that you are not one iota better than any other sinner? Romans 3:9. Did God ever tell you that sin is of the devil? 1 John 3:8. Did God ever tell you we can't say we have "no sin" and be IN TRUTH? 1 John 1:8.

These are the things that God tells us, if we're REALLY interested in HEARING what His Word has spoken. It ain't all a little bed of chatty talk over coffee and donuts.

I really wonder sometimes how many "believers" are interested in having a REAL conversation with God, and how many actually run away from HIS Revealings and deny them as fast as possible?

Do you know that if "we," any of us, spoke honestly about these things, that NOBODY would really listen anyway? Because everybody really only wants coffee and donuts talk.

 

[Sinthesis]

The bible tells me so isn't necessarily wrong, but it's an appeal to authority that isn't useful in some situations.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

What does Jesus tell the Jews in John 5:39, "Search the scriptures: for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and (but) they are they which testify of me." Did Jesus say that eternal life was in the scriptures? No, he said that it was in him and that the scriptures revealed that to us. When we pray, do we pray to the scriptures or to the risen Savior in heaven that makes intercession for us? We are to walk by faith. Faith in what? the scriptures or faith in our risen savior?

 

[OzSpen]

The title of the thread is "'The Bible tells me so' is wrong". You are getting sidetracked. But let me help.

I'm not getting side-tracked at all. I started this thread and part of the discussion has moved to historical fact in the Bible. Application of that issue relates to historical facts generally. We apply the same tests to historicity of the Bible that we use for historicity of Columbus coming to North America.

Columbus discovering American is certainly not a historical fact but rather a historical perspective. The Indians were already here, so how do you say he discovered it? It is because it was discovered from the perspective of a group of Europeans, and not all of them. It appears the Vikings had already found it also. So what you call an 'historical fact" was just from the perspective of some and not all.

So are you saying that the historical facts contained in this article are bunkum: 'Christopher Columbus discovers America, 1492'? Are all these details a fabrication that are not factual?

This is important to this thread "Because the Bible tells me so' is wrong', because we all have our perspective, but it is a very limited perspective. It is only based upon the narrow set of information we pick up and only from the perspective of a person.

It doesn't matter what your perspective is or my perspective. Do we know the historical facts of Columbus going to America and James Cook coming to the east coast of Australia in 1770. Our perspectives do not change that. Our perspectives generally relate to our world and life view. My perspective doesn't change the solid fact that Cook came to find Australia for the Brits in 1770. I hope you get the picture that my perspective does not change the fact that I had an accident with my car on Tuesday that meant I had to take it to a repairer yesterday on the advice of the insurer.

As an historian, I'm not restricted to knowing a 'narrow set of information'. On a number of historical subjects I've been exposed to world-wide information. That's because I pursue facts and more facts to discover historical details.

So while the history is important, it is only important because of what it means to us today!!

I disagree. History is important because if the Bible's history is not reliable, we might as well junk it. Trustworthy history is critical for understanding the authenticity of the Bible.

• Is it true that Noah and his family lived and survived a worldwide flood? Is this reliable information or a fairy tale?
• Was Abraham an historical person whose historical journeys can be documented?
• Did Jesus really die on a cross in Jerusalem or was it in Bethlehem, Damascus or Nazareth? Is it historically important to know this?
• Was Paul converted on the Damascus Rd or was it on the Via Dolorosa?
• Did Paul preach on the Areopagus in Athens or was that the hill outside Antioch or Rome?

Do you understand how serious it is to know the facts of history, not only in your country and mine, but in relation to the historical factual information contained in Scripture? Is this information trustworthy or am I to take it from view: 'we all have our perspective, but it is a very limited perspective. It is only based upon the narrow set of information we pick up and only from the perspective of a person'.

Should I forget about the accuracy of the factual history in the Bible? Or is there no factual history and most of it relates to the interpreter's 'perspective'?

Oz

 

[Free]

dirtfarmer here

What does Jesus tell the Jews in John 5:39, "Search the scriptures: for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and (but) they are they which testify of me." Did Jesus say that eternal life was in the scriptures? No, he said that it was in him and that the scriptures revealed that to us. When we pray, do we pray to the scriptures or to the risen Savior in heaven that makes intercession for us? We are to walk by faith. Faith in what? the scriptures or faith in our risen savior?

The point being made in this thread is that if the Scriptures aren't literal history, then any belief stemming from them is poppycock. It is hard to ignore the fact that you are appealing to Scripture in order to make your point, and appeal you must.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I'm not getting side-tracked at all. I started this thread and part of the discussion has moved to historical fact in the Bible. Application of that issue relates to historical facts generally. We apply the same tests to historicity of the Bible that we use for historicity of Columbus coming to North America.



So are you saying that the historical facts contained in this article are bunkum: 'Christopher Columbus discovers America, 1492'? Are all these details a fabrication that are not factual?



It doesn't matter what your perspective is or my perspective. Do we know the historical facts of Columbus going to America and James Cook coming to the east coast of Australia in 1770. Our perspectives do not change that. Our perspectives generally relate to our world and life view. My perspective doesn't change the solid fact that Cook came to find Australia for the Brits in 1770. I hope you get the picture that my perspective does not change the fact that I had an accident with my car on Tuesday that meant I had to take it to a repairer yesterday on the advice of the insurer.

As an historian, I'm not restricted to knowing a 'narrow set of information'. On a number of historical subjects I've been exposed to world-wide information. That's because I pursue facts and more facts to discover historical details.



I disagree. History is important because if the Bible's history is not reliable, we might as well junk it. Trustworthy history is critical for understanding the authenticity of the Bible.

• Is it true that Noah and his family lived and survived a worldwide flood? Is this reliable information or a fairy tale?
• Was Abraham an historical person whose historical journeys can be documented?
• Did Jesus really die on a cross in Jerusalem or was it in Bethlehem, Damascus or Nazareth? Is it historically important to know this?
• Was Paul converted on the Damascus Rd or was it on the Via Dolorosa?
• Did Paul preach on the Areopagus in Athens or was that the hill outside Antioch or Rome?

Do you understand how serious it is to know the facts of history, not only in your country and mine, but in relation to the historical factual information contained in Scripture? Is this information trustworthy or am I to take it from view: 'we all have our perspective, but it is a very limited perspective. It is only based upon the narrow set of information we pick up and only from the perspective of a person'.

Should I forget about the accuracy of the factual history in the Bible? Or is there no factual history and most of it relates to the interpreter's 'perspective'?

Oz

Maybe it is just me, but sometimes I just get a laugh at things.

The thread starts on the importance of the Bible. A few ideas were put forward concerning the Bible and it's importance to our moral values. In an article one man didn't think all the Bible was needed for us to have good moral values, and so another man put forth a position where he thought none of the bible was needed for us to have good moral values. The Op titled "Because the Bible tells me - is wrong" put for the idea that the Bible is needed for moral values. And I am putting forth the idea that Jesus Christ is needed for us to have moral values.

So I conclude that it is not the Bible but Jesus we need to be looking forth. Of course He tells us to read the Bible, but it is Him and not the Bible we need for good moral values. Thus all the conclusions in the article and OP are wrong, because they are all looking to the Bible and not Jesus Christ, like the Bible tells us to do.

So if we again turn to looking at the historical factually accuracy of the Bible, instead of important fact that we can turn to Jesus Christ we again are looking to the Bible instead of Jesus Christ. And that is a problem recorded as a historical fact in the Bible. And it is still a fact.

So what does Columbus discovering American have to do with this thread? Well pretty much nothing. It was presented in support of that value of historical facts, but the Indians of America would very much dispute that fact and rightly so. There were already here. So there is value at looking at our perspective, when we judge things. Our perspective obviously is poor. We need God's perspective, which bring us back to needing to listen to Jesus Christ, via the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ.

So to answer a decent question that was posed in the above post:

Should I forget about the accuracy of the factual history in the Bible? Or is there no factual history and most of it relates to the interpreter's 'perspective'?

We should not forget about the Bible, but it is not for us to interpret! That is a job for the Holy Spirit to do. The Bible explains that. We must take what is written in the Bible to the Lord and listen to what He has to say to us personally about it!!! He is the truth, not us.

So again I write that it is not "Because the Bible tells me so" , but rather "Because Jesus Christ our Lord tells us so"

We are to live by faith in the Lord, and because our faith says the Word (Jesus Christ - He is the Word we preach) is near us, we need to listen to Him. Doing that will give us good moral values, and leaning on our own understanding will not!

 

[OzSpen]

So what does Columbus discovering American have to do with this thread? Well pretty much nothing. It was presented in support of that value of historical facts, but the Indians of America would very much dispute that fact and rightly so.

You still miss the importance of historical facts! The criteria of historicity that apply to Columbus apply to the Bible's history and the history of Captain James Cook and Australia. Get it?

We should not forget about the Bible, but it is not for us to interpret! That is a job for the Holy Spirit to do.

You must be joking! Do you mean to tell me that I can throw away my understanding of English words, sentences and grammar when I read my English translation of the Bible and leave it to the Holy Spirit to interpret?

Are you giving the same message to the translators of the Greek NT to English? Tell them to discard their knowledge of Greek grammar and the Holy Spirit will interpret the grammar for them so that they can go from Greek to English with only the Holy Spirit's ability to interpret?
Come on K2! It's time for me to have a Coke and drink to that one.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

We should not forget about the Bible, but it is not for us to interpret! That is a job for the Holy Spirit to do.

sigh
I hear that kind of nonsense over and over primarily from people with no theological training, a poor command of the English language and a very exaggerated opinion of their ability to hear from the Holy Spirit based on their weekly 10 minutes of prayer.

The Bible is literature. If someone does not understand how to understand literature, he will not understand the Bible. If a person cannot tell the difference between a metaphor and an literal, objective, description he has no business telling anyone what the Bible says.

The Bibles that people read in this forum is almost exclusively an English translations. If a person does not have a decent command of the English language then he will not understand the Bible. (A good example is the ongoing failure of a few in this forum to comprehend the fact that words like "forever" and "eternal" and "everlasting" all mean the same thing.)

Theology is NOT an area in which the average U.S. high school graduate (who generally requires remedial English if he enters college) can expect to excel. It actually takes years of specialized training which is why churches often require a seminary education in order to be hired as a pastor. They expect their pastors and teachers to be properly equipped. In fact, the first college founded in the USA (then British colonies) was Harvard. It was established as a seminary to train pastors as was Yale.

Now it seems that every Tom, Dick and Harriet with their King James Version (written in a language they do not speak) thinks they are expert theologians because "they got the HOLYghost."

So when I hear hear someone say, "The Holy Spirit revealed to me...." I cringe because I know from experience that those words will very likely be followed by a bushel of mixed confusion and nonsense.

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

sigh
I hear that kind of nonsense over and over primarily from people with no theological training, a poor command of the English language and a very exaggerated opinion of their ability to hear from the Holy Spirit based on their weekly 10 minutes of prayer.

The Bible is literature. If someone does not understand how to understand literature, he will not understand the Bible. If a person cannot tell the difference between a metaphor and an literal, objective, description he has no business telling anyone what the Bible says.

The Bibles that people read in this forum is almost exclusively an English translations. If a person does not have a decent command of the English language then he will not understand the Bible. (A good example is the ongoing failure of a few in this forum to comprehend the fact that words like "forever" and "eternal" and "everlasting" all mean the same thing.)

Theology is NOT an area in which the average U.S. high school graduate (who generally requires remedial English if he enters college) can expect to excel. It actually takes years of specialized training which is why churches often require a seminary education in order to be hired as a pastor. They expect their pastors and teachers to be properly equipped. In fact, the first college founded in the USA (then British colonies) was Harvard. It was established as a seminary to train pastors as was Yale.

Now it seems that every Tom, Dick and Harriet with their King James Version (written in a language they do not speak) thinks they are expert theologians because "they got the HOLYghost."

So when I hear hear someone say, "The Holy Spirit revealed to me...." I cringe because I know from experience that those words will very likely be followed by a bushel of mixed confusion and nonsense.

iakov the fool

And the above represents a similar problem, in reverse. That only the 'educated' can really know anything from the Bible, for sure for sure. And only they can then tell everyone else. Which most believers would consider just as much utter nonsense.

IF the Word is effective, then it is reasonable to presume He also works things out for everyone who calls upon Him, even if they don't see or hear Perfectly, which NO ONE does.

 

[smaller]

The day any person claiming to "understand" the Bible puts on their big boy theological pants and walks into Paul's already written notices, and applies them personally, I'll be the first person to sit up, listen, and take note to what they have to say. Paul left "very certain" marks on how to identify a 'truth teller' from a liar/poser.

Pontifications about history or law or what have you pale in comparison to what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul opened the door to amazing understandings, but he did not dish out all the food in the container. He left plenty behind for others.

Look at Paul's Holy Ghost genius teachings in 1 Cor. 9:9-10 about a single obscure O.T. law sometime. A single law, with a mountain of understanding. He derived a meaning that was written exactly NOWHERE in the entire O.T. And HOW did Paul figure out that Israel was "baptised" in the RED SEA and the CLOUD and drank from the Spiritual Rock, which is Christ?! How did Paul figure out "how" the two covenants "worked" from the ALLEGORIES of the Law, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael?! In Gal. 4

Allegory!

These are the kinds of questions I ask GOD to teach me. HOW did Paul "get there?" And Paul will tell us: Follow ME as I follow Christ. How did Paul follow Christ? By, first, Gods Words. Of course there are "life" applications. Few know it, but we live, right here, right now, in the ALLEGORY.

We study the Word to follow Christ. We study Paul to follow Christ.

Moses was shown Gods BACKSIDE for what reason? (Exodus 33). To FOLLOW Christ. What do we see when we follow Jesus? His BACK SIDE. The "marks" He left on the trail in His Words. We are following from the BACK SIDE. Paul did no differently. He was "taught" by the Holy Spirit from what was already written. Jesus Himself BOWED DOWN His Own Positions and Understandings to what? Clear blue nonsense plucked out of thin air, or what was already written? Yep. Written. He was following His Own BACK SIDE. IF you ever figured out "how" Jesus pulled his PARABLES from the O.T. you'd be absolutely amazed. You think the "sheep and goat" account of Matt. 25 didn't come from the O.T? It DID.

We "follow" His Back Side until when? Until we SEE HIM FACE TO FACE. 1 Cor. 13:12

The Spirit WILL show those who are "led" to see. And these are the things we work for. To find "genuine" understandings. Applicable to our own lives. And should share. And yes, it is HARD work. Work that was NOT completed. Paul shows us the elders of the churches STILL "labored" in both Word and doctrine. 1 Tim. 5:17. IF as some propose, the APOSTLES taught them everything, why are they laboring in Word and doctrine? They should still be "laboring" today. Are they going to come up with NEW STUFF? NOPE! Whatever is built from that "labor" MUST COMPLY with what has already been laid down.

The book of Hebrews does an amazing job at delineating some of the finest salient measures in "how" this work, this "labor," transpired. It is fantastic LABOR. Because it is based on the O.T.

It is their marks, which our own "labor" must follow and "conform" with. If our "labor" can't cut their written mustard, then it's no good. They had to "labor" that understanding from what was already written.

Look at this piece of Holy Spirit genius from Hebrews 6:

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Where did this come from? The O.T.

People who don't understand ALLEGORY butcher this stretch so badly their sights are nearly incomprehensible. You can tell instantly, if someone understands ALLEGORY and who is talking out of their hat when they have NO basis of fact in ALLEGORY and WHERE this comes from out of the O.T.

Jesus put down some very "hard line" measures in these matters. IF we read the above, and we apply "vs. 7" to ourselves and "vs. 8" to others, whoever claims that doesn't have CLUE ONE. Here, Jesus puts on the filter to screen out the mad hatters of Word teachings. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Every Word MUST apply to THE READER. Emphasis. Every Word.

History is far down on the list of study priorities. History in the Bible is ALLEGORY. Did stuff really historically happen? Of course. But it's still ALLEGORY. I'd almost call hard history a petty side note. No one is 'saved' by history. History lessons are not what the Spirit teaches whatsoever. The Spirit will take "written history" and show SPIRITUAL THINGS. Just as Paul noted many many times. People can study all the in's and out's of Biblical Judaic law their entire life, and if they never understood it as ALLEGORY, as Paul clearly did, they wouldn't have learned A THING from it. The law is spiritual. Romans 7:14. It's not a history lesson. If you want to learn 'history' go study it with the world. They do a much better job of it.

But if you want to study Word and "follow Jesus", THEN listen to Jesus "allegorize" the entire Bible in ONE SENTENCE:

Luke 8:
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

IF there is any 'history' lesson in the Bible it is this: Jesus IS "the entire HIStory" of that Bible. Every line, every "jot and tittle" speaks of Him and His Ways in some way or fashion. He, of course is that SEED. But why would He describe Himself in "allegory" FORM? Now, if Jesus is in Spiritual terms SEED, which is obviously an allegory, and THE WORD is SEED, then it is all assuredly ALLEGORY.

If Jesus came back today, came up to you, looked you right in the eye, and said "I am The SEED." You'd probably think He was NUTZ.

Why would you think He wasn't NUTZ when He said it THEN? Allegory is serious theological territory.

Does anybody know that the RESURRECTION was sown in Adam, in the Garden? HOW?

Read about it in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Is history going to show any of us that? Nope. We can read the Gen. 1-5 accounts about Adam til we're blue in the face, and we won't see Jesus IN Adam. But Paul shows us He was there. I ask the Holy Spirit, HOW that is so. And, these things the Spirit will show.

Just as The Spirit shows us that Levi was "in" Abraham in Heb. Paying TITHES no less. A guy who wasn't even born yet PAYED TITHES.

Hebrews 7:9
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Anyone who says 'history' teaches these things is the real nut. There is NO WAY any history would derive that answer.

The Spirit has His Own Language. And yes, it IS written.

 

[OzSpen]

sigh
I hear that kind of nonsense over and over primarily from people with no theological training, a poor command of the English language and a very exaggerated opinion of their ability to hear from the Holy Spirit based on their weekly 10 minutes of prayer.

The Bible is literature. If someone does not understand how to understand literature, he will not understand the Bible. If a person cannot tell the difference between a metaphor and an literal, objective, description he has no business telling anyone what the Bible says.

The Bibles that people read in this forum is almost exclusively an English translations. If a person does not have a decent command of the English language then he will not understand the Bible. (A good example is the ongoing failure of a few in this forum to comprehend the fact that words like "forever" and "eternal" and "everlasting" all mean the same thing.)

Theology is NOT an area in which the average U.S. high school graduate (who generally requires remedial English if he enters college) can expect to excel. It actually takes years of specialized training which is why churches often require a seminary education in order to be hired as a pastor. They expect their pastors and teachers to be properly equipped. In fact, the first college founded in the USA (then British colonies) was Harvard. It was established as a seminary to train pastors as was Yale.

Now it seems that every Tom, Dick and Harriet with their King James Version (written in a language they do not speak) thinks they are expert theologians because "they got the HOLYghost."

So when I hear hear someone say, "The Holy Spirit revealed to me...." I cringe because I know from experience that those words will very likely be followed by a bushel of mixed confusion and nonsense.

iakov the fool

Jim,

Before I begin teaching a class on introductory NT Greek, I have to teach basic English grammar. Why? Because our schools are not doing a very good job in teaching English grammar. If we don't understand the meaning or function of nouns, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, participles, infinitives, etc. and how they function in sentences, there is no possibility of comprehending the nuances of these parts of speech in Greek.

Then we have the added problem in the contemporary church (that manifests itself on this and other Christian forums) that there are those who claim that we don't need to understand grammar to establish the meaning of a sentence, clause or paragraph because 'the Spirit will tell me that'. This is what we are seeing in some posts here.

Seems as though we have wasted a lot of $$$ getting seminary and advanced training to try to better understand the Scriptures.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz