The book of life and other books opened in Revelation 20:12

[for_his_glory]

Most of us have a favorite Bible teacher. Some have gone to be with the LORD. You can define any answer ChatGPT gives, by demanding it answers "as though it were xyz teacher." It will scan everything that person said on the Internet, and the answer it gives will likely be what the Teacher would have answered, if still alive. In seconds. Free.

We know how the internet can be misleading in many Biblical teachings. Again John 14:26 is what I will rely on for all truths.

 

[for_his_glory]

Who are the 24 elders in Rev 4:4

Rev 4:4 John sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles24:7-19; 25:6-31; 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as God’s witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.

Didn't need AI to teach me this, but sure needed the Holy Spirit to reveal this to me many years ago.​

 

[Alfred Persson]

Saying that “saved people rise on judgement day” not only is different than your initial argument—“That people are saved on Judgment Day is explicitly stated by the prophet Daniel (Dan. 12:2) Jesus Christ (John 5:28-29) and His apostle Peter (Acts 24:15)”—it makes it seem that only saved people rise, which is not the case.


You first have to prove your first premise.


Again, claims that you first need to prove.


Why would “Christians who are seated with God and His angels” need to have their names verified in the book of life? That makes no sense.


You have too many assumptions you need to clear up first.

I agree I had it wrong, they are saved before Judgment Day, but its made official when they rise from Hades to life. So the books are already finalized, they are opened to reveal contents on Judgment Day.

Christ said believers "shall not come into judgment (krisis)", they are saved when they believe. Rev. 20:11-22 is a KRISIS judgment. As Kings and priests, they are seated with Christ, not rising from hell and death or the sea.

I have proved people rise from hell who are not tossed into the lake of fire, that's not an assumption.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Just that statement alone should make one think twice about using this. When man refuses to think for themselves then they become fools. I don't need any AI to change the way I have been doing things for 68 years now that works for me.

If you want to know why flies like your beer just google it.

ChatGPT is useful, any technology can be misused. Pocket calculators were banned in schools, at first. There are a lot of things I don't know, and being able to get informed answers instantly is too good to pass up.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Rev 4:4 John sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles24:7-19; 25:6-31; 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as God’s witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.

Didn't need AI to teach me this, but sure needed the Holy Spirit to reveal this to me many years ago.​

I agree, there is knowledge and there is spiritual insight only God can give:

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:13-3:1 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

We know how the internet can be misleading in many Biblical teachings. Again John 14:26 is what I will rely on for all truths.

I never suggested otherwise.

 

[Free]

I agree I had it wrong, they are saved before Judgment Day, but its made official when they rise from Hades to life. So the books are already finalized, they are opened to reveal contents on Judgment Day.

Christ said believers "shall not come into judgment (krisis)", they are saved when they believe. Rev. 20:11-22 is a KRISIS judgment. As Kings and priests, they are seated with Christ, not rising from hell and death or the sea.

All will be judged. Believers will be judged by their works, just as unbelievers:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. (ESV)

It doesn't determine salvation, but the level of reward for believers and level of punishment for unbelievers:

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

I have proved people rise from hell who are not tossed into the lake of fire, that's not an assumption.

I already agreed with that, so that means that is not what I was referring to. Your assumptions are as follows:

1. All believers rise in the first resurrection/rapture/gathering.
2. Christians are seated with God and His angels during Judgment Day.
3. The "dead" who rise from Hades etc must have been saved in the Afterlife; so if anyone rise "to a resurrection of life" (John 5:29) on Judgment Day they were saved in Hades.

 

[Alfred Persson]

All will be judged. Believers will be judged by their works, just as unbelievers:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. (ESV)

It doesn't determine salvation, but the level of reward for believers and level of punishment for unbelievers:

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)


I already agreed with that, so that means that is not what I was referring to. Your assumptions are as follows:

1. All believers rise in the first resurrection/rapture/gathering.
2. Christians are seated with God and His angels during Judgment Day.
3. The "dead" who rise from Hades etc must have been saved in the Afterlife; so if anyone rise "to a resurrection of life" (John 5:29) on Judgment Day they were saved in Hades.

We part company on that, our Teacher said believers will not come into krisis judgment, and the Great White Throne Judgment is a krisis judgment:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

2920. κρίσις krísis; gen. kríseōs, fem. noun from krínō (2919), to judge. Separation, figuratively division, dissension, decision, crisis, turn of affairs, judgment.-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged (2919 κρίνω krino) according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged (2919 κρίνω krino), each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:12-13 NKJ)

I believe your eschatology is imprecise, it generalizes dissimilar things. Like forcing pieces to fit when assembling a picture puzzle. You can do it, but the picture won't be what the puzzle maker intended.

Believers are saved by grace. On Judgment Day they are seated with Christ, assisting the judgment:

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor. 6:3 NKJ)

Yes, angels are judged before the Great White Throne, they rise from the "Sea of Chaos". Death and Hades are where most of the human dead are. The "Sea" is where the fallen angels and thoroughly wicked humans are.

And Christians shall judge them for what they did to us.

But to get a total picture, one must think critically and not compare apples and oranges.

And your summary of my argument is correct, and I have produced reams of scriptures to back it up. People are saved in Hades. The gospel is preached ALSO to the dead (so everyone has an opportunity to be saved), and they are judged. Those who repent and believe then "live according to God in the Spirit" separated from all torment just as Christ was when He preached to the spirits in prison:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

I never suggested otherwise.

I never said you did.

 

[for_his_glory]

Alfred Persson there is no afterlife once we die, but only judgement. One's judgement is final when they physically die. Once Christ returns there is no second chance for those who are still alive, but again, only judgement.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson there is no afterlife once we die, but only judgement. One's judgement is final when they physically die. Once Christ returns there is no second chance for those who are still alive, but again, only judgement.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

No afterlife? After death and Judgment these dead seem very lively, eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming for salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

In the context you left out, its the dead who obey Christ's voice while in the grave who "done good" and rise to life

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

That is Christ's point to the Pharisees who were rejecting Him, just as the Father kills and makes alive all who disobey or obey His voice, so does the Son. When they are dead in Hades they will hear Christ's voice, and if they still don't listen they will rise to a resurrection of condemnation.

But the dead who listen to Christ voice while the grave (Hades) have done good and will rise to the resurrection of life on Judgment Day.

That's why the Book of Life is opened on Judgment Day, to verify their names are in it.

 

[Free]

We part company on that, our Teacher said believers will not come into krisis judgment, and the Great White Throne Judgment is a krisis judgment:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

2920. κρίσις krísis; gen. kríseōs, fem. noun from krínō (2919), to judge. Separation, figuratively division, dissension, decision, crisis, turn of affairs, judgment.-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged (2919 κρίνω krino) according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged (2919 κρίνω krino), each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:12-13 NKJ)

I believe your eschatology is imprecise, it generalizes dissimilar things. Like forcing pieces to fit when assembling a picture puzzle. You can do it, but the picture won't be what the puzzle maker intended.

What exactly is Jesus saying in John 5:24? Not that we won't appear before him to be judged, but that believers won't face judgement for whether or not they have eternal life, since they already have it--"has passed from death to life." That believers will stand before the Great Throne is without question:

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. (ESV)

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

And, again, for believers it determines the level of reward based on their works. Unbelievers, whose names aren't in the book of life, won't have eternal life, and will receive different levels of punishment based on their works.

Believers are saved by grace. On Judgment Day they are seated with Christ, assisting the judgment:

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor. 6:3 NKJ)

Yes, angels are judged before the Great White Throne, they rise from the "Sea of Chaos". Death and Hades are where most of the human dead are. The "Sea" is where the fallen angels and thoroughly wicked humans are.

And Christians shall judge them for what they did to us.

But to get a total picture, one must think critically and not compare apples and oranges.

Speaking of imprecision, forcing pieces of a puzzle to fit, and comparing apples and oranges. Where is it mentioned, exactly, that believers will be "seated with Christ, assisting the judgement," on Judgement Day? How do you know that Paul is speaking of such in 1 Cor 6:3? How do you know the sea is 'the "Sea of Chaos"'? Where does the Bible say that most of the human dead are in Death and Hades, and that "fallen angels and thoroughly wicked humans" are in the sea?

Again, a lot of assumptions.

And your summary of my argument is correct, and I have produced reams of scriptures to back it up. People are saved in Hades. The gospel is preached ALSO to the dead (so everyone has an opportunity to be saved), and they are judged. Those who repent and believe then "live according to God in the Spirit" separated from all torment just as Christ was when He preached to the spirits in prison:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Where is a verse that states "people are saved in Hades"? Where is it stated that "the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead"?

More assumptions you need to deal with.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What exactly is Jesus saying in John 5:24? Not that we won't appear before him to be judged, but that believers won't face judgement for whether or not they have eternal life, since they already have it--"has passed from death to life." That believers will stand before the Great Throne is without question:

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. (ESV)

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

And, again, for believers it determines the level of reward based on their works. Unbelievers, whose names aren't in the book of life, won't have eternal life, and will receive different levels of punishment based on their works.


Speaking of imprecision, forcing pieces of a puzzle to fit, and comparing apples and oranges. Where is it mentioned, exactly, that believers will be "seated with Christ, assisting the judgement," on Judgement Day? How do you know that Paul is speaking of such in 1 Cor 6:3? How do you know the sea is 'the "Sea of Chaos"'? Where does the Bible say that most of the human dead are in Death and Hades, and that "fallen angels and thoroughly wicked humans" are in the sea?

Again, a lot of assumptions.


Where is a verse that states "people are saved in Hades"? Where is it stated that "the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead"?

More assumptions you need to deal with.

That happens during the first resurrection. All who died and rose with Christ will be gathered, at the resurrection/rapture/gathering of the church. We are judged then, its not a krisis judgment. Then we reign with Christ as His kings and priests:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)

I am a critical thinker, I do not "generalize" to make scripture fit a theory. You do. That's why we will never agree. Christ our Teacher stated plainly believers do not come under krisis judgment. You ignore that "detail" and generalize the "judgment" so our judgment before Christ's throne is happens at the wrong time.

"Why would Christ leave believers not-resurrected for a thousand years after He returned, throughout His millennial kingdom?

He wouldn't. But as you ignore details, I can't convince you. I tried.

I will return later to answer you again, when I have time.

Y

 

[Free]

That happens during the first resurrection. All who died and rose with Christ will be gathered, at the resurrection/rapture/gathering of the church. We are judged then, its not a krisis judgment. Then we reign with Christ as His kings and priests:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)

Right, but you are still making unsubstantiated assumptions. First, that this refers to all believers, despite verse 4 strongly suggesting it is just a specific group of believers. Second, that this has to do with the Great White Throne judgement, despite verse 6 clearly stating that these "shall reign with Him a thousand years." Then comes Satan's defeat, the great battle, and only then comes the judgement before the great white throne. You'll notice in Rev 20:11 that it only mentions one throne and only one who is the Judge.

I am a critical thinker, I do not "generalize" to make scripture fit a theory. You do. That's why we will never agree. Christ our Teacher stated plainly believers do not come under krisis judgment. You ignore that "detail" and generalize the "judgment" so our judgment before Christ's throne is happens at the wrong time.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in your statements here, so be careful in what you are claiming. I am ignoring no detail. The very detail I gave in John 5:24, which provides the context for Jesus's statement you keep repeating, is what you seem to keep overlooking. Yes, Jesus said "believers do no come under judgment," but he also states the reason for that statement--because they "have passed from death to life." In other words, the immediate context, the very same sentence even, shows us that the judgement believers won't be under is that regarding eternal life, because they have already "passed from death to life."

But Paul makes it very clear, as does John in Rev 20, that all will be judged based on their works--believers for level of reward; unbelievers for level of punishment.

"Why would Christ leave believers not-resurrected for a thousand years after He returned, throughout His millennial kingdom?

He wouldn't.

Again, that is an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.

But as you ignore details, I can't convince you. I tried.

I am not the one ignoring details. You have several assumptions that you still need to address.

 

[for_his_glory]

No afterlife? After death and Judgment these dead seem very lively, eagerly waiting for Christ's second coming for salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

In the context you left out, its the dead who obey Christ's voice while in the grave who "done good" and rise to life

Those who are physically dead in their graves, whether they died being Christ own or those who rejected Christ have already been judged as this is why it is written in John 5:28-29 all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The only after life is eternal life with Jesus or eternal damnation in the lake of fire. There is nothing in-between when we physically die as when Christ returns on the last day this will be the day of judgement for all both alive and in the grave.

 

[for_his_glory]

That happens during the first resurrection. All who died and rose with Christ will be gathered, at the resurrection/rapture/gathering of the church. We are judged then, its not a krisis judgment. Then we reign with Christ as His kings and priests:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son Christ Jesus will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem. The goats being those who are not God's or Christ own will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death (Those being Spiritually dead) being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Right, but you are still making unsubstantiated assumptions. First, that this refers to all believers, despite verse 4 strongly suggesting it is just a specific group of believers. Second, that this has to do with the Great White Throne judgement, despite verse 6 clearly stating that these "shall reign with Him a thousand years." Then comes Satan's defeat, the great battle, and only then comes the judgement before the great white throne. You'll notice in Rev 20:11 that it only mentions one throne and only one who is the Judge.


There is a lot of hypocrisy in your statements here, so be careful in what you are claiming. I am ignoring no detail. The very detail I gave in John 5:24, which provides the context for Jesus's statement you keep repeating, is what you seem to keep overlooking. Yes, Jesus said "believers do no come under judgment," but he also states the reason for that statement--because they "have passed from death to life." In other words, the immediate context, the very same sentence even, shows us that the judgement believers won't be under is that regarding eternal life, because they have already "passed from death to life."

But Paul makes it very clear, as does John in Rev 20, that all will be judged based on their works--believers for level of reward; unbelievers for level of punishment.


Again, that is an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.


I am not the one ignoring details. You have several assumptions that you still need to address.

Apocalyptic symbolism. The martyrs are everyone who truly died in Christ, and rose in His resurrection. Its also symbolized by baptism. Only true followers of Christ are raptured/gathered/raised up in the first resurrection, and they will serve as Kings and Priests during Christ's millennial kingdom. Its not unsubstantiated, its the obvious meaning of the symbolism.

That is how you went wrong. God the Son, the Word of God gave you a detail about how He treats those who heed His voice, and you ignore it.

Christ said Christians do not come under krisis judgement, and as a Friend I point out that detail----you purposely disregard it.

Frankly, that is arrogant, who are you to contradict Christ?

Its your claims that are unsubstantiated. Christ said no krisis judgment for believers. You claim it is. Prove it. Show where kisis judgment for believers is taught.

Paul never contradicts Christ, nor does the symbolism of the apocalypse. Instead of "half-baked theories," cite the precise scripture that says "Believers will suffer krisis judgment."

Your claims are unsubstantiated, and your theories are not proof. Show where it is written, believe in Jesus and during the Great White Throne you will pass krisis judgment, not before. That's over a thousand years after the second coming of Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Those who are physically dead in their graves, whether they died being Christ own or those who rejected Christ have already been judged as this is why it is written in John 5:28-29 all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The only after life is eternal life with Jesus or eternal damnation in the lake of fire. There is nothing in-between when we physically die as when Christ returns on the last day this will be the day of judgement for all both alive and in the grave.

All dead in Graves hear His voice and those who listen done good, and come out to life.

1 Corinthians is about the rapture.

Revelation 20:11-15 is when the dead saved in Hades rise to the resurrection of life and the wicked are punished, rising to the resurrection of condemnation:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

And you err believing only eternal life or eternal torment exist. God explicitly says some will be exterminated, cease to exist:

They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed (08045 שָׁמַד shamad) them, And made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 NKJ)

08045 שָׁמַד shamad
Meaning: 1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated 1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated 1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to annihilate, exterminate 1b2) to destroy

Eternal Torment awaits all who accept the Mark of the Beast, therefore "less than eternal torment" must exist or the threat has no force:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11 NKJ)

The threat is "God punishes evildoers according to their works, being tossed into the lake of fire is "the second death" The second death from which there is no return.

Those not destined for eternal torment will have their portion in the lake of fire and then Cease to exist, burned up in the unquenchable fire that consumes.

But those who worship the Beast, their torment will never end.

Therefore, if less than eternal torment does not exist, the threat of eternal torment has no force.

 

[Free]

Apocalyptic symbolism. The martyrs are everyone who truly died in Christ, and rose in His resurrection. Its also symbolized by baptism. Only true followers of Christ are raptured/gathered/raised up in the first resurrection, and they will serve as Kings and Priests during Christ's millennial kingdom. Its not unsubstantiated, its the obvious meaning of the symbolism.

Again, unsupported assumptions. You really need to start providing solid evidence.

That is how you went wrong. God the Son, the Word of God gave you a detail about how He treats those who heed His voice, and you ignore it.

Christ said Christians do not come under krisis judgement, and as a Friend I point out that detail----you purposely disregard it.

Frankly, that is arrogant, who are you to contradict Christ?

This is false. I clearly addressed the verse and showed what Jesus meant, by finishing off the rest of that sentence.

Its your claims that are unsubstantiated. Christ said no krisis judgment for believers. You claim it is. Prove it. Show where kisis judgment for believers is taught.

You take my statements out of context, just as with scripture. The judgement Jesus is speaking of is only that relating to eternal life; he makes that clear himself with the last have of the sentence that you keep ignoring.

I have also shown where Paul clearly states that all will stand before Christ in judgement, but for believers it will be to determine the level of reward. I have provided verses that state this.

Paul never contradicts Christ, nor does the symbolism of the apocalypse. Instead of "half-baked theories," cite the precise scripture that says "Believers will suffer krisis judgment."

Already have. There is no need to keep repeating myself.

Your claims are unsubstantiated, and your theories are not proof. Show where it is written, believe in Jesus and during the Great White Throne you will pass krisis judgment, not before. That's over a thousand years after the second coming of Christ.

I have supported my position, unlike yourself, with many of your assumptions still being unaddressed.

 

[for_his_glory]

Apocalyptic symbolism. The martyrs are everyone who truly died in Christ, and rose in His resurrection. Its also symbolized by baptism. Only true followers of Christ are raptured/gathered/raised up in the first resurrection, and they will serve as Kings and Priests during Christ's millennial kingdom. Its not unsubstantiated, its the obvious meaning of the symbolism.

That is how you went wrong. God the Son, the Word of God gave you a detail about how He treats those who heed His voice, and you ignore it.

Christ said Christians do not come under krisis judgement, and as a Friend I point out that detail----you purposely disregard it.

Frankly, that is arrogant, who are you to contradict Christ?

Its your claims that are unsubstantiated. Christ said no krisis judgment for believers. You claim it is. Prove it. Show where kisis judgment for believers is taught.

Paul never contradicts Christ, nor does the symbolism of the apocalypse. Instead of "half-baked theories," cite the precise scripture that says "Believers will suffer krisis judgment."

Your claims are unsubstantiated, and your theories are not proof. Show where it is written, believe in Jesus and during the Great White Throne you will pass krisis judgment, not before. That's over a thousand years after the second coming of Christ.

You are in violation of the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 in regards to telling another member they contradict Christ because you do not agree with them and that their claims are unsubstantiated when they have given scripture that supports what they have said.

I will not delete this post so Free can reply to this. Any more behavior like this will cause you to be banned from this thread.