The book of life and other books opened in Revelation 20:12

[for_his_glory]

All dead in Graves hear His voice and those who listen done good, and come out to life.

1 Corinthians is about the rapture.

Revelation 20:11-15 is when the dead saved in Hades rise to the resurrection of life and the wicked are punished.

And you err believing only eternal life or eternal torment exist. God explicitly says some will be exterminated, cease to exist:

They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed (08045 שָׁמַד shamad) them, And made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 NKJ)

08045 שָׁמַד shamad
Meaning: 1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated 1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated 1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to annihilate, exterminate 1b2) to destroy

Eternal Torment awaits all who accept the Mark of the Beast, therefore "less than eternal torment" must exist or the threat has no force:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11 NKJ)

The threat is "if evil, God punish for a time and the you die the second death from which there is no return. Cease to exist, burned up in the lake of fire that consumes.


But if you worship the Beast, your torment will never end.

Therefore, if less than eternal torment does not exist, the threat of eternal torment has no force.

Apparently this is what Cessationism has taught you and it clearly comes against scripture as their teachings twist scripture in order to make it line up with what they teach.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Again, unsupported assumptions. You really need to start providing solid evidence.


This is false. I clearly addressed the verse and showed what Jesus meant, by finishing off the rest of that sentence.


You take my statements out of context, just as with scripture. The judgement Jesus is speaking of is only that relating to eternal life; he makes that clear himself with the last have of the sentence that you keep ignoring.

I have also shown where Paul clearly states that all will stand before Christ in judgement, but for believers it will be to determine the level of reward. I have provided verses that state this.


Already have. There is no need to keep repeating myself.


I have supported my position, unlike yourself, with many of your assumptions still being unaddressed.

Here is support for my exegesis. Where is yours?

5:24 Truly, truly I-say to-you(pl) that the (one) hearing[a] my word and believing the (one who) sent me has eternal[c] lifed and does- not -come into judgment,[e] but has-passed[f] out-of death into life.

LEXICON—a. pres. act. participle of ἀκούω (LN 24.52, 36.14) (BAGD 1.b.α. p. 32): ‘to hear’ [LN (24.52); all translations except NJB, NLT, REB], ‘to listen to’ [NJB, NLT], ‘to pay attention to and obey’ [LN (36.14)], ‘to obey’ [NET], ‘to heed’ [REB]. This verb means ‘to hear’ [LN (24.52)], or to listen or pay attention to a person, with resulting conformity to what is advised or commanded [LN (36.14)]. ‘Hearing’ certainly means more than merely having been present when the words were spoken [IVP]. Real hearing entails believing [CH]. This ‘hearing’ includes both physical and spiritual hearing [Gdt], both belief and obedience [CAR]. Just hearing with the ear is insufficient, a response is required [ICC].

b. pres. act. participle of πιστεύω (LN 31.85) (BAGD 1.b. p. 661): ‘to believe’ [BAGD, Gdt, NTC, NICNT2, WBC; NASB, NET, NIV, NRSV], ‘to believe in’ [HTC, NCV, NJB, NLT, Ph, TEV], ‘to believe on’ [KJV], ‘to have faith in’ [AB; CEV], ‘to put one’s trust in’ [REB], ‘to have confidence in, to trust’ [LN]. This verb means to believe to the extent of complete trust and reliance. In translating this verb it would be wrong to select a term that would merely mean ‘reliance’ or ‘dependency’ or even ‘confidence’, for there should also be a significant measure of ‘belief’ since real trust, confidence, and reliance can only be placed in someone who is believed to have the qualities attributed to such a person [LN].

c. αἰώνιος (LN 67.96): ‘eternal’ [LN; all translations except NTC; KJV], ‘everlasting’ [NTC; KJV]. This adjective describes an unlimited duration of time. The most frequent use of αἰώνιος in the NT is with ζωή ‘life’, for example, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον ‘so that every one who believes in him may have eternal life’ (John 3:15). In combination with ζωή there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying’, there may be serious misunderstandings since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death’. Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life’, so as to introduce a qualitative distinction [LN]. The phrase ‘has eternal life’ may be rendered ‘has eternal life already’ in order to accurately translate it [Gdt].

d. ζωή (LN 23.88) (BAGD 2.b.α. p. 340): ‘life’ [BAGD, LN]; all translations]. This word refers to the supernatural life belonging to God and Christ that believers will receive in the future, but which they also enjoy here and now [BAGD]. It is eternal life [CAR].

e. κρίσιῃ (BAGD 1.a.β. p. 452): ‘judgment’ [BAGD; NJB], ‘condemnation’ [AB, BAGD; KJV]. The clause εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται ‘he does not come into/to/under judgment’ [Gdt, HTC, NICNT2, WBC; NASB, NRSV, REB] is also translated ‘he/they will not be judged’ [LN; TEV], ‘without being brought to judgment’ [NJB], ‘he does not have to face judgment’ [Ph], ‘(he) will not be judged guilty’ [NCV], ‘(he) will not/never be condemned’ [CEV, NET, NIV], ‘they will never be condemned for their sins’ [NLT], ‘he does not come into/under condemnation’ [AB, NTC], ‘he will not come to/into condemnation’ [KJV]. The word often means ‘judgment’ that goes against a person, and the ‘condemnation’ and ‘punishment’ that follows [BAGD].

f. perf. act. indic. of μεταβαίνω (LN 13.51) (BAGD 2.a. p. 510): ‘to pass’ [AB, BAGD, HTC, NICNT2, NTC; NASB, NJB, NLT, NRSV, REB, TEV], ‘to be passed’ [Gdt; KJV], ‘to change’ [LN], ‘to go’ [CEV], ‘to leave’ [NCV], ‘to cross over’ [WBC; NIV], ‘to move’ [BAGD]. This verb means to change from one state to another ‘he has already changed from death to life’ [LN]. The perfect tense carries the sense of ‘already’ [EGT, LN; CEV, NCV, NLT, Ph, REB, TEV]: ‘(he) has already passed from death into life’ [Ph].

QUESTION—Is the word κρίσις ‘judgment’ used here to mean ‘condemnation’ or does it have a neutral meaning?

1. ‘Judgment’ means ‘condemnation’ [AB, BAGD, CAR, EGT, HTC, IVP, Lns, My, NICNT2, NTC, WBC; CEV, KJV, NCV, NET, NIV, NLT]. It means ‘adverse judgment’ [CAR]. ‘Judgment’ is for unbelief (see John 3:18 and 36) [WBC]. Life and judgment are mutually exclusive here [NICNT2].

2. ‘Judgment’ is a neutral term [Gdt; and possibly NASB, NJB, NRSV, Ph, REB]. This is a judgment that decides a man’s eternal destiny [Gdt].-Trail, R. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of John 1–9 (pp. 232–234). SIL International.


Christians will not face a judgment of their works, they will stand before the throne of Christ and give an account of themselves, and be rewarded or criticized. Never condemned. Krisis is not in this text at all, Judgment seat of Christ is
τοῦ βήματος τοῦ Χριστου

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10 NKJ)

BGT 2 Corinthians 5:10 τοὺς γὰρ πάντας ἡμᾶς φανερωθῆναι δεῖ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα κομίσηται ἕκαστος τὰ διὰ τοῦ σώματος πρὸς ἃ ἔπραξεν, εἴτε ἀγαθὸν εἴτε φαῦλον. (2 Cor. 5:10 BGT)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Apparently this is what Cessationism has taught you and it clearly comes against scripture as their teachings twist scripture in order to make it line up with what they teach.

How is it I use Free's favorite charge "unsubstantiated", and document Christ is being contradicted, but you can bring up unrelated Cessationism and allege I twist scripture, but that isn't a violation of the TOS?

 

[for_his_glory]

How is it I use Free's favorite charge "unsubstantiated", and document Christ is being contradicted, but you can bring up unrelated Cessationism and allege I twist scripture, but that isn't a violation of the TOS?

I gave you the reason why in post #60.

Please take this to TWTS if you want to discuss this further as it will not be discussed in this thread.

 

[Free]

Here is support for my exegesis. Where is yours?

5:24 Truly, truly I-say to-you(pl) that the (one) hearing[a] my word and believing the (one who) sent me has eternal[c] lifed and does- not -come into judgment,[e] but has-passed[f] out-of death into life.

LEXICON—a. pres. act. participle of ἀκούω (LN 24.52, 36.14) (BAGD 1.b.α. p. 32): ‘to hear’ [LN (24.52); all translations except NJB, NLT, REB], ‘to listen to’ [NJB, NLT], ‘to pay attention to and obey’ [LN (36.14)], ‘to obey’ [NET], ‘to heed’ [REB]. This verb means ‘to hear’ [LN (24.52)], or to listen or pay attention to a person, with resulting conformity to what is advised or commanded [LN (36.14)]. ‘Hearing’ certainly means more than merely having been present when the words were spoken [IVP]. Real hearing entails believing [CH]. This ‘hearing’ includes both physical and spiritual hearing [Gdt], both belief and obedience [CAR]. Just hearing with the ear is insufficient, a response is required [ICC].

b. pres. act. participle of πιστεύω (LN 31.85) (BAGD 1.b. p. 661): ‘to believe’ [BAGD, Gdt, NTC, NICNT2, WBC; NASB, NET, NIV, NRSV], ‘to believe in’ [HTC, NCV, NJB, NLT, Ph, TEV], ‘to believe on’ [KJV], ‘to have faith in’ [AB; CEV], ‘to put one’s trust in’ [REB], ‘to have confidence in, to trust’ [LN]. This verb means to believe to the extent of complete trust and reliance. In translating this verb it would be wrong to select a term that would merely mean ‘reliance’ or ‘dependency’ or even ‘confidence’, for there should also be a significant measure of ‘belief’ since real trust, confidence, and reliance can only be placed in someone who is believed to have the qualities attributed to such a person [LN].

c. αἰώνιος (LN 67.96): ‘eternal’ [LN; all translations except NTC; KJV], ‘everlasting’ [NTC; KJV]. This adjective describes an unlimited duration of time. The most frequent use of αἰώνιος in the NT is with ζωή ‘life’, for example, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον ‘so that every one who believes in him may have eternal life’ (John 3:15). In combination with ζωή there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying’, there may be serious misunderstandings since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death’. Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life’, so as to introduce a qualitative distinction [LN]. The phrase ‘has eternal life’ may be rendered ‘has eternal life already’ in order to accurately translate it [Gdt].

d. ζωή (LN 23.88) (BAGD 2.b.α. p. 340): ‘life’ [BAGD, LN]; all translations]. This word refers to the supernatural life belonging to God and Christ that believers will receive in the future, but which they also enjoy here and now [BAGD]. It is eternal life [CAR].

e. κρίσιῃ (BAGD 1.a.β. p. 452): ‘judgment’ [BAGD; NJB], ‘condemnation’ [AB, BAGD; KJV]. The clause εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται ‘he does not come into/to/under judgment’ [Gdt, HTC, NICNT2, WBC; NASB, NRSV, REB] is also translated ‘he/they will not be judged’ [LN; TEV], ‘without being brought to judgment’ [NJB], ‘he does not have to face judgment’ [Ph], ‘(he) will not be judged guilty’ [NCV], ‘(he) will not/never be condemned’ [CEV, NET, NIV], ‘they will never be condemned for their sins’ [NLT], ‘he does not come into/under condemnation’ [AB, NTC], ‘he will not come to/into condemnation’ [KJV]. The word often means ‘judgment’ that goes against a person, and the ‘condemnation’ and ‘punishment’ that follows [BAGD].

f. perf. act. indic. of μεταβαίνω (LN 13.51) (BAGD 2.a. p. 510): ‘to pass’ [AB, BAGD, HTC, NICNT2, NTC; NASB, NJB, NLT, NRSV, REB, TEV], ‘to be passed’ [Gdt; KJV], ‘to change’ [LN], ‘to go’ [CEV], ‘to leave’ [NCV], ‘to cross over’ [WBC; NIV], ‘to move’ [BAGD]. This verb means to change from one state to another ‘he has already changed from death to life’ [LN]. The perfect tense carries the sense of ‘already’ [EGT, LN; CEV, NCV, NLT, Ph, REB, TEV]: ‘(he) has already passed from death into life’ [Ph].

QUESTION—Is the word κρίσις ‘judgment’ used here to mean ‘condemnation’ or does it have a neutral meaning?

1. ‘Judgment’ means ‘condemnation’ [AB, BAGD, CAR, EGT, HTC, IVP, Lns, My, NICNT2, NTC, WBC; CEV, KJV, NCV, NET, NIV, NLT]. It means ‘adverse judgment’ [CAR]. ‘Judgment’ is for unbelief (see John 3:18 and 36) [WBC]. Life and judgment are mutually exclusive here [NICNT2].

2. ‘Judgment’ is a neutral term [Gdt; and possibly NASB, NJB, NRSV, Ph, REB]. This is a judgment that decides a man’s eternal destiny [Gdt].-Trail, R. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of John 1–9 (pp. 232–234). SIL International.

I'm not sure what the point of all of this is, as I don't see how it addresses anything that I've stated nor support anything you've stated.

It doesn't address your assumptions that I have given:

1. All believers rise in the first resurrection/rapture/gathering.
2. Christians are seated with God and His angels during Judgment Day.
3. The "dead" who rise from Hades etc must have been saved in the Afterlife; so if anyone rise "to a resurrection of life" (John 5:29) on Judgment Day they were saved in Hades.

It doesn't address the questions I asked about additional assumptions you have made:

Where is it mentioned, exactly, that believers will be "seated with Christ, assisting the judgement," on Judgement Day? How do you know that Paul is speaking of such in 1 Cor 6:3? How do you know the sea is 'the "Sea of Chaos"'? Where does the Bible say that most of the human dead are in Death and Hades, and that "fallen angels and thoroughly wicked humans" are in the sea?

And further questions about further assumptions:

First, that Rev 20:4-6 refers to all believers, despite verse 4 strongly suggesting it is just a specific group of believers. Second, that this has to do with the Great White Throne judgement, despite verse 6 clearly stating that these "shall reign with Him a thousand years." Then comes Satan's defeat, the great battle, and only then comes the judgement before the great white throne. You'll notice in Rev 20:11 that it only mentions one throne and only one who is the Judge.

None of this you have addressed.

Christians will not face a judgment of their works, they will stand before the throne of Christ and give an account of themselves, and be rewarded or criticized. Never condemned. Krisis is not in this text at all, Judgment seat of Christ is
τοῦ βήματος τοῦ Χριστου

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10 NKJ)

You are quoting a verse I have already given which contradicts your first sentence. You second and third sentence are addressing an argument I am not making.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm not sure what the point of all of this is, as I don't see how it addresses anything that I've stated nor support anything you've stated.

It doesn't address your assumptions that I have given:

1. All believers rise in the first resurrection/rapture/gathering.
2. Christians are seated with God and His angels during Judgment Day.
3. The "dead" who rise from Hades etc must have been saved in the Afterlife; so if anyone rise "to a resurrection of life" (John 5:29) on Judgment Day they were saved in Hades.

It doesn't address the questions I asked about additional assumptions you have made:

Where is it mentioned, exactly, that believers will be "seated with Christ, assisting the judgement," on Judgement Day? How do you know that Paul is speaking of such in 1 Cor 6:3? How do you know the sea is 'the "Sea of Chaos"'? Where does the Bible say that most of the human dead are in Death and Hades, and that "fallen angels and thoroughly wicked humans" are in the sea?

And further questions about further assumptions:

First, that Rev 20:4-6 refers to all believers, despite verse 4 strongly suggesting it is just a specific group of believers. Second, that this has to do with the Great White Throne judgement, despite verse 6 clearly stating that these "shall reign with Him a thousand years." Then comes Satan's defeat, the great battle, and only then comes the judgement before the great white throne. You'll notice in Rev 20:11 that it only mentions one throne and only one who is the Judge.

None of this you have addressed.


You are quoting a verse I have already given which contradicts your first sentence. You second and third sentence are addressing an argument I am not making.

I don't see how you can ignore all that exegsis about John 5:24, and krisis judgment, that substantiated everything I said in rebuttal to confusing krisis judgment with what believers will receive before the throne of Christ.

Your "apples to oranges" confusion of judgments, was handily refuted.

Repeating unsubstantiated "interpretation" doesn't address the facts stated in the Exegetical Summary.

And I find it odd a Christian who believes in Baptism symbolizing Christians die and rise with Christ, can't see the Church in the symbolism of Rev. 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4 NKJ)

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
(Rom. 6:4-8 NKJ)

Let's stick with the confusion of judgments, how Christ said we are saved when we believe in this life, therefore won't come under a krisis judgment like the unsaved will.

 

[Free]

I don't see how you can ignore all that exegsis about John 5:24, and krisis judgment, that substantiated everything I said in rebuttal to confusing krisis judgment with what believers will receive before the throne of Christ.

Your "apples to oranges" confusion of judgments, was handily refuted.

Repeating unsubstantiated "interpretation" doesn't address the facts stated in the Exegetical Summary.

And I find it odd a Christian who believes in Baptism symbolizing Christians die and rise with Christ, can't see the Church in the symbolism of Rev. 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4 NKJ)

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
(Rom. 6:4-8 NKJ)

Let's stick with the confusion of judgments, how Christ said we are saved when we believe in this life, therefore won't come under a krisis judgment like the unsaved will.

More than once I have very clearly stated that believers are not judged regarding where they will spend eternity. They’re believers; they’re already saved. Of course you are now contradicting your earlier claims by saying that we are saved when we believe in this life. I have been saying that as well. There is no “postmortem” opportunity. A person either dies saved or they spend eternity apart from God.

It seems you haven’t understood anything I have said. Please go back and reread my posts as I haven’t confused any judgements. If anything, I actually have made the same case and you have simply misunderstood.

 

[Alfred Persson]

More than once I have very clearly stated that believers are not judged regarding where they will spend eternity. They’re believers; they’re already saved. Of course you are now contradicting your earlier claims by saying that we are saved when we believe in this life. I have been saying that as well. There is no “postmortem” opportunity. A person either dies saved or they spend eternity apart from God.

It seems you haven’t understood anything I have said. Please go back and reread my posts as I haven’t confused any judgements. If anything, I actually have made the same case and you have simply misunderstood.

Yes, you say that, but then put their judgment at the Great White Throne, which is a krisis judgment.

We appear before Christ's throne during the first resurrection. The Martyrs killed by the beast, symbolically stand for all the church baptized in Christ, who died and rose again with Him.

We are saved during this life, by grace, and aren't judged for salvation by our works, we are judged for rewards:

19 "After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 "So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying,`Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.'
21 "His lord said to him,`Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
22 "He also who had received two talents came and said,`Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.'
23 "His lord said to him,`Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.'
24 "Then he who had received the one talent came and said,`Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 `And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Matt. 25:19-30 NKJ)

The wicked and lazy servant is a TARE, not a Christian. He reveals that by not knowing Christ at all, slanders Jesus to His face declaring Him a "hard man...who reaped what He had not sown, in other words, a thief."

You don't explain why Christian's aren't present during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. We are promised to be kings and priests, yet you don't have them judged until the Great White Throne.

So obviously they were raised up in Rev. 20:4, and worked in Christ's millennial kingdom as His kings and priests, and on judgment day are seated WITH Christ and His holy angels, judging the unholy angels:


Do you not know that we shall judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:3 NKJ)


What's so hard about all this? It seems simple to me:

Why should I reread your insistence Christians don't participate in the first resurrection. That is a universal belief, not mine alone.


As for not focusing on specific topics, blame the software of this board. On old "Tree branch" threaded forums, you could focus on one verse, one idea till it was fully discussed. Here everything is dumped into one thread, and frankly I can't keep up. I don't recall everything you said on specific verses, and I won't spend the time scanning reams of posts to figure it out.

The forum is set up to NOT discuss things in detail.

That is a real defect that should be fixed.

I asked, but was turned down. Frankly, I tire of everything dumped into one thread, and no one remembering what was said about a specific verse.

I'm about to quit this forum and go elsewhere, or start my own. This is too confusing. Can't remember who said what. And its getting old.

The real prize goes to the ? moderator who insisted all the separate posts I made on Different scriptures, all go in one thread. I wanted discuss each context in detail, but instead all get heaped into one thread.

Way to God Mr "?" That was genius.

I had enough and this is my last post.

Good bye.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, you say that, but then put their judgment at the Great White Throne, which is a krisis judgment.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Those who are Christ own whether alive or dead at His coming have already been judged and given eternal life as their names are found written in the Lamb's book of life. Those who are not His own, dead or alive at His coming have already damned themselves as their names are not written in the book of life. The books contain our works here on earth whether they were good works done unto the Lord, or the evil works that give place to Satan.

It's not that hard to understand as when Christ returns He brings the rewards of good and evil with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

As for not focusing on specific topics, blame the software of this board. On old "Tree branch" threaded forums, you could focus on one verse, one idea till it was fully discussed. Here everything is dumped into one thread, and frankly I can't keep up. I don't recall everything you said on specific verses, and I won't spend the time scanning reams of posts to figure it out.

The forum is set up to NOT discuss things in detail.

That is a real defect that should be fixed.

I asked, but was turned down. Frankly, I tire of everything dumped into one thread, and no one remembering what was said about a specific verse.

I'm about to quit this forum and go elsewhere, or start my own. This is too confusing. Can't remember who said what. And its getting old.

The real prize goes to the ? moderator who insisted all the separate posts I made on Different scriptures, all go in one thread. I wanted discuss each context in detail, but instead all get heaped into one thread.

Way to God Mr "?" That was genius.

I had enough and this is my last post.

Good bye.

If you can not keep up with discussions, especially in threads you start then maybe you should not participate in them as you know exactly what has been posted in this thread. If you are to lazy to go back and read what others have posted to you then that falls on your shoulders and has nothing to do with the staff.

ToS 2.4 says, no flooding same subject and this is what you continually do by making many threads about the same subject and have the ego of you being right and everyone who does not agree with you are wrong or have no understanding and even go as far as telling them they are not a Christian. This is getting very old and tiring of you. Stay don't stay, but that is on you as no one is forcing you to leave.

 

[Free]

Yes, you say that, but then put their judgment at the Great White Throne, which is a krisis judgment.

What does Rev 20 state?

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

There are at least two different judgements going on. One is the judgement of works and the other is for whether or not one is saved. The first is relevant for the believer, that latter is not. And that agrees with Paul:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)

We appear before Christ's throne during the first resurrection. The Martyrs killed by the beast, symbolically stand for all the church baptized in Christ, who died and rose again with Him.

Again, I’ve pointed out more than once that you have not provided support for either of these assumptions.

We are saved during this life, by grace,

Which I’ve always said but contradicts the main premise--that there is a "postmortem opportunity" for salvation--of many threads you have made.

and aren't judged for salvation by our works,

Which is not an argument I have ever made.

we are judged for rewards:

I know. I’ve stated that more than once.

You don't explain why Christian's aren't present during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Why should I explain something that I never said and goes against scripture?

We are promised to be kings and priests, yet you don't have them judged until the Great White Throne.


So obviously they were raised up in Rev. 20:4, and worked in Christ's millennial kingdom as His kings and priests,

I’ve addressed that. That’s also another assumption that you have yet to support—who it is that is raised first. Hint: there is no reason to believe it is all believers, especially when we know that there are those in the general resurrection whose names are in the book of life.

and on judgment day are seated WITH Christ and His holy angels, judging the unholy angels:


Do you not know that we shall judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:3 NKJ)

Two more unsupported assumptions. You have not shown where the Bible says we are seated with Christ on judgement day, despite me pointing out that only one throne is mentioned. And you’re assuming that judging angels in 1 Cor 6:3 refers to judgement day.

What's so hard about all this? It seems simple to me:

It seems simple because you’re making a number of unsupported assumptions and seem to not really be reading what I’m writing.

Why should I reread your insistence Christians don't participate in the first resurrection. That is a universal belief, not mine alone.

I never said that, much less insisted. It shows you aren’t really reading what I’m writing.

As for not focusing on specific topics, blame the software of this board. On old "Tree branch" threaded forums, you could focus on one verse, one idea till it was fully discussed. Here everything is dumped into one thread, and frankly I can't keep up. I don't recall everything you said on specific verses, and I won't spend the time scanning reams of posts to figure it out.

Reems of posts? Lol This thread is four pages; actually two and half since the first bit was more about ChatGPT. When I want to know what someone has said, I’ll go back 20 pages and follow their arguments. It’s simple.

The forum is set up to NOT discuss things in detail.

That is a real defect that should be fixed.

I asked, but was turned down. Frankly, I tire of everything dumped into one thread, and no one remembering what was said about a specific verse.

I'm about to quit this forum and go elsewhere, or start my own. This is too confusing. Can't remember who said what. And its getting old.

It’s not confusing for me and many others. There has been a total of four people in this thread. I've remembered what you have and haven't said regarding the passages in question in this thread. Do you really think that having ten or more threads about one topic would be easier? Do you really think that each thread would stay on only one verse, especially when it is never a good idea to discuss only one verse, since the context includes all that is said about a matter? Can you imagine the crisscrossing that would go on, with multiple posts in each of the threads linking to multiple posts in other threads in order to reference what was said elsewhere, so that context is maintained?

The real prize goes to the ? moderator who insisted all the separate posts I made on Different scriptures, all go in one thread. I wanted discuss each context in detail, but instead all get heaped into one thread.

None of that has to do with this discussion. Multiple threads on the same topic are not permitted. It’s really not that difficult to discuss multiple passages about one topic in one thread, especially since they all form a part of the context.

Way to God Mr "?" That was genius.

It is actually the best way.

I had enough and this is my last post.

Good bye.

Well, that is your choice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What does Rev 20 state?

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

There are at least two different judgements going on. One is the judgement of works and the other is for whether or not one is saved. The first is relevant for the believer, that latter is not. And that agrees with Paul:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)


Again, I’ve pointed out more than once that you have not provided support for either of these assumptions.


Which I’ve always said but contradicts the main premise--that there is a "postmortem opportunity" for salvation--of many threads you have made.


Which is not an argument I have ever made.


I know. I’ve stated that more than once.


Why should I explain something that I never said and goes against scripture?


I’ve addressed that. That’s also another assumption that you have yet to support—who it is that is raised first. Hint: there is no reason to believe it is all believers, especially when we know that there are those in the general resurrection whose names are in the book of life.


Two more unsupported assumptions. You have not shown where the Bible says we are seated with Christ on judgement day, despite me pointing out that only one throne is mentioned. And you’re assuming that judging angels in 1 Cor 6:3 refers to judgement day.


It seems simple because you’re making a number of unsupported assumptions and seem to not really be reading what I’m writing.


I never said that, much less insisted. It shows you aren’t really reading what I’m writing.


Reems of posts? Lol This thread is four pages; actually two and half since the first bit was more about ChatGPT. When I want to know what someone has said, I’ll go back 20 pages and follow their arguments. It’s simple.


It’s not confusing for me and many others. There has been a total of four people in this thread. I've remembered what you have and haven't said regarding the passages in question in this thread. Do you really think that having ten or more threads about one topic would be easier? Do you really think that each thread would stay on only one verse, especially when it is never a good idea to discuss only one verse, since the context includes all that is said about a matter? Can you imagine the crisscrossing that would go on, with multiple posts in each of the threads linking to multiple posts in other threads in order to reference what was said elsewhere, so that context is maintained?


None of that has to do with this discussion. Multiple threads on the same topic are not permitted. It’s really not that difficult to discuss multiple passages about one topic in one thread, especially since they all form a part of the context.


It is actually the best way.


Well, that is your choice.

I enabled "comments" on my site. If you want to discuss this there, under the relevant post....you're welcome. I can't keep up with detailed discussion. I forget what was said, by who. The older "nested" view kept track, by separating each poster with a thread of their own.

Home | End Time News

Unlock the Scriptures Discover insights on the prophesied events and prepare for the future with End Time News. Explore Now Site Under Construction Ignore Starter Template Testimonies etc. Read Blog posts only. Guidance Receive expert analysis and interpretations on prophetic scriptures for...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you can not keep up with discussions, especially in threads you start then maybe you should not participate in them as you know exactly what has been posted in this thread. If you are to lazy to go back and read what others have posted to you then that falls on your shoulders and has nothing to do with the staff.

ToS 2.4 says, no flooding same subject and this is what you continually do by making many threads about the same subject and have the ego of you being right and everyone who does not agree with you are wrong or have no understanding and even go as far as telling them they are not a Christian. This is getting very old and tiring of you. Stay don't stay, but that is on you as no one is forcing you to leave.

I agree. Goodbye.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What does Rev 20 state?

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

There are at least two different judgements going on. One is the judgement of works and the other is for whether or not one is saved. The first is relevant for the believer, that latter is not. And that agrees with Paul:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (ESV)


Again, I’ve pointed out more than once that you have not provided support for either of these assumptions.


Which I’ve always said but contradicts the main premise--that there is a "postmortem opportunity" for salvation--of many threads you have made.


Which is not an argument I have ever made.


I know. I’ve stated that more than once.


Why should I explain something that I never said and goes against scripture?


I’ve addressed that. That’s also another assumption that you have yet to support—who it is that is raised first. Hint: there is no reason to believe it is all believers, especially when we know that there are those in the general resurrection whose names are in the book of life.


Two more unsupported assumptions. You have not shown where the Bible says we are seated with Christ on judgement day, despite me pointing out that only one throne is mentioned. And you’re assuming that judging angels in 1 Cor 6:3 refers to judgement day.


It seems simple because you’re making a number of unsupported assumptions and seem to not really be reading what I’m writing.


I never said that, much less insisted. It shows you aren’t really reading what I’m writing.


Reems of posts? Lol This thread is four pages; actually two and half since the first bit was more about ChatGPT. When I want to know what someone has said, I’ll go back 20 pages and follow their arguments. It’s simple.


It’s not confusing for me and many others. There has been a total of four people in this thread. I've remembered what you have and haven't said regarding the passages in question in this thread. Do you really think that having ten or more threads about one topic would be easier? Do you really think that each thread would stay on only one verse, especially when it is never a good idea to discuss only one verse, since the context includes all that is said about a matter? Can you imagine the crisscrossing that would go on, with multiple posts in each of the threads linking to multiple posts in other threads in order to reference what was said elsewhere, so that context is maintained?


None of that has to do with this discussion. Multiple threads on the same topic are not permitted. It’s really not that difficult to discuss multiple passages about one topic in one thread, especially since they all form a part of the context.


It is actually the best way.


Well, that is your choice.

Feel free to join my forum, to discuss this. Let me know if you have any problems posting

EndTimeNewsForum

A place where my blog posts on EndTimeNews.Net can be discussed

endtimenewsforum.discoursehosting.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you can not keep up with discussions, especially in threads you start then maybe you should not participate in them as you know exactly what has been posted in this thread. If you are to lazy to go back and read what others have posted to you then that falls on your shoulders and has nothing to do with the staff.

ToS 2.4 says, no flooding same subject and this is what you continually do by making many threads about the same subject and have the ego of you being right and everyone who does not agree with you are wrong or have no understanding and even go as far as telling them they are not a Christian. This is getting very old and tiring of you. Stay don't stay, but that is on you as no one is forcing you to leave.

You are welcome to dispute any of my views at my forum, which isn't fully set up yet to display the "threaded/nested" directory I want.

I will still post here, but I really want to have that old style "nested view" so I can keep up with all the different users and topics. Right now, after a while everything just blends in. I forget who said what and why. If each reply has its own thread, its easier to discuss things in detail.

EndTimeNewsForum

A place where my blog posts on EndTimeNews.Net can be discussed

endtimenewsforum.discoursehosting.net

Everyone is welcome.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are welcome to dispute any of my views at my forum, which isn't fully set up yet to display the "threaded/nested" directory I want.

I will still post here, but I really want to have that old style "nested view" so I can keep up with all the different users and topics. Right now, after a while everything just blends in. I forget who said what and why. If each reply has its own thread, its easier to discuss things in detail.

EndTimeNewsForum

A place where my blog posts on EndTimeNews.Net can be discussed

endtimenewsforum.discoursehosting.net

Everyone is welcome.

I've been to your End time forum and you being a Cessationalist I will never agree with your doctrines and will always dispute them according to the doctrines of Christ for what He has already spoken. If others want to check it out that is up to them. Things do not blend in when one stays the course of the thread they start or reply to and it is very important to backtrack some post in order to keep up with the OP. You have a very nested view, but that is only what it is as you are not opened to hear anything that comes against what you have been indoctrinated in. You have every right to believe how you want, but you also need to start respecting how others believe, especially when they give scripture to help support their beliefs. That's why the staff has painstakingly taking the time to set up the ToS and expect everyone to follow them as every member has agreed to do so when they became a member. We are not a police force nor do we censor anyone's postings because we disagree, but will delete any that come against the ToS as you well know. Start respecting what others post with scripture to show why they disagree with you as that seems to be the biggest problem.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I've been to your End time forum and you being a Cessationalist I will never agree with your doctrines and will always dispute them according to the doctrines of Christ for what He has already spoken. If others want to check it out that is up to them. Things do not blend in when one stays the course of the thread they start or reply to and it is very important to backtrack some post in order to keep up with the OP. You have a very nested view, but that is only what it is as you are not opened to hear anything that comes against what you have been indoctrinated in. You have every right to believe how you want, but you also need to start respecting how others believe, especially when they give scripture to help support their beliefs. That's why the staff has painstakingly taking the time to set up the ToS and expect everyone to follow them as every member has agreed to do so when they became a member. We are not a police force nor do we censor anyone's postings because we disagree, but will delete any that come against the ToS as you well know. Start respecting what others post with scripture to show why they disagree with you as that seems to be the biggest problem.

Yes, I believe Cessationism is correct until the endtime week, then the Holy Spirit will be poured out and the church will prophesy.

I'm glad you like this linear style thread. I do not. Without being reminded which people said what everytime I respond to the latest, reminded of where we were in a debate, I forget.

Free and yourself accused me of not responding to "xyz point". Probably right, when everything is dumped into one thread, and the post is long, my eyes glaze over and sometimes I fall asleep. Sorry about that.

But as for my forum, just canceled it. Customer support just informed me they cannot implement a "threaded view". So I must keep looking:

"This is a feature that has been requested before, but the Discourse creators have made it very clear that this will not be implemented in core. We are aware of a few attempts to build it in a plugin but it has been found to be very hard."

 

[Alfred Persson]

I enabled "comments" on my site. If you want to discuss this there, under the relevant post....you're welcome. I can't keep up with detailed discussion. I forget what was said, by who. The older "nested" view kept track, by separating each poster with a thread of their own.

Home | End Time News

Unlock the Scriptures Discover insights on the prophesied events and prepare for the future with End Time News. Explore Now Site Under Construction Ignore Starter Template Testimonies etc. Read Blog posts only. Guidance Receive expert analysis and interpretations on prophetic scriptures for...

endtimenews.net

Nix both "comments" my forum, they don't offer the "threaded view" I want so I have to keep looking:

"This is a feature that has been requested before, but the Discourse creators have made it very clear that this will not be implemented in core. We are aware of a few attempts to build it in a plugin but it has been found to be very hard."

 

[for_his_glory]

Nix both "comments" my forum, they don't offer the "threaded view" I want so I have to keep looking:

"This is a feature that has been requested before, but the Discourse creators have made it very clear that this will not be implemented in core. We are aware of a few attempts to build it in a plugin but it has been found to be very hard."

Sorry, but I abhor the doctrines of Cessationalist that comes against the written word of God, especially in the area of Spiritual gifts, and I will not partake in your website.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Sorry, but I abhor the doctrines of Cessationalist that comes against the written word of God, especially in the area of Spiritual gifts, and I will not partake in your website.

That's unfortunate. I hope to have everyone passionate about their beliefs debating and discussing issues, on every side. It has the "threaded view" I wanted, so its possible two people diverge from the main OP to discuss things in detail. I hope to keep it virtually "unmoderated". I'll learn the hard way if that's possible.

EndTimesDialogue.com Forum

EndTimesDialogue.com Discussion Board

endtimesdialogue.com