The burden of proof

[By Grace]

God inspired the authors to write, there are many authors of the Bible.

He communicates in various ways and methods, not limited to the Bible. He communicates with us by His Holy Spirit, through Creation, through other people, through other books, through the Bible, through experiences, through prayer (this is THE LIFE LINE), through circumstances, through trials, through suffering.......

A better question would be - how does God NOT communicate with us? I can not think of one.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness. Not understanding or not agreeing with an answer does not equate the respondents having dodged the question. Obadiah) "other people, through other books " would need to be equally inspired, and authoritative as God Himself if that were a true statement. Can you see what I am saying?

 

[Jesse]

(Edited, ToS 2.4, rudeness. Obadiah) "other people, through other books " would need to be equally inspired, and authoritative as God Himself if that were a true statement. Can you see what I am saying?

(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)

God's only authority is through the Bible?

He can not teach me through one of His called teachers? He can't teach me through another book?

God has authority over all, why limit His authority to one book?

 

[By Grace]

[QUOTE="Jesse, post: 1031279, member: 7531"God's only authority is through the Bible?[/quote]

The authority of God is ontological meaning in His being. God shares neither His glory nor authority with anyone. So I am at a loss to understand what you are stating.

He can not teach me through one of His called teachers? He can't teach me through another book?

Of course He can use any means to teach people about Himself.
.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.​

God has authority over all, why limit His authority to one book?

I believe that you are mixing definitions because this is essentially a repeat of the first question. But I will attempt to answer what I think you are saying:

A brief definition of the word "authority"

the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.​

from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authority?s=t

As you can see, the noun carries with itself the ability to make independent judgments by itself.
Does the Bible have that? NO

It is true that the Bible is the only rule for both our faith and our practice, but that is simply stating that the Bible is kinda like a tape measure where we measure things to see if they meet the standard of God. At its most basic form, the Bible is ink on paper that contains words we believe are from God. Does that ink and paper, bound nicely together possess some sort of authority (as defined above)? Again, the answer is no.

I have no idea what the mod thought was being rude, but that was not my intent, OK?

 

[Jesse]

The authority of God is ontological meaning in His being. God shares neither His glory nor authority with anyone. So I am at a loss to understand what you are stating.


Of course He can use any means to teach people about Himself.
.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.​

I believe that you are mixing definitions because this is essentially a repeat of the first question. But I will attempt to answer what I think you are saying:

A brief definition of the word "authority"

the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.​

from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authority?s=t

As you can see, the noun carries with itself the ability to make independent judgments by itself.
Does the Bible have that? NO

It is true that the Bible is the only rule for both our faith and our practice, but that is simply stating that the Bible is kinda like a tape measure where we measure things to see if they meet the standard of God. At its most basic form, the Bible is ink on paper that contains words we believe are from God. Does that ink and paper, bound nicely together possess some sort of authority (as defined above)? Again, the answer is no.

I have no idea what the mod thought was being rude, but that was not my intent, OK?

Then I don't think we have anything to debate because I agree with what you have said here.

My understanding of your argument, up until now, is that the Bible=God=Jesus=Holy Spirit, instead of The Trinity, we have a Quadruplinity.

There are some people on this thread who believe the very Bible is also Jesus, that they are the same, the written word and the Word - Jesus are the same thing. There are some people who believe the Bible is the all encompassing Authority, The Authority is God, they are not the same. My argument has always been that the original manuscript is inspired by God, it is a revelation from Him, but it is not Him.

 

[By Grace]

Jessee. can you tell me what you are saying here?

My understanding of your argument, up until now, is that the Bible=God=Jesus=Holy Spirit, instead of The Trinity, we have a Quadruplinity.

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC:
The function to make quotes is really hidden here, and there are two ways to quote a person:manually and by causing the program to create a quote. I believe that it is important to memorize the manual way first because it is sometimes needed to make a manual edit.
1) before the item you wish to quote, add this: [ q u o t e] (without spaces)
2) to close the quote, ass this at the end [ / q u o t e ] (also without spaces)

3) to do it via the word processor here go first to the words you wish to copy and highlight them by holding the left mouse button and swiping it across the quote, and make it blue
4) Go to the 4th icon in the tool bar from the right, and hover on it . It will say "insert" on the icon title
5) tap and release the left mouse button and you will see " as your first option.
6) tap on that, and your selection will be properly formatted

 

[Jesse]

Jessee. can you tell me what you are saying here?

I have not a clue how or where this began, but the problem is, we have essentially made the Bible equal to God Himself. We should read and value the importance of studying the Bible, but we should keep it in proper perspective. We have mangled , divided, twisted and butchered this message from God by making a declaration that we should follow the Bible instead of Christ Himself.

Here are a few examples of what I consider the word as in God speaking to us: 1). Through the angles God sent to enlighten people (Mary, Abraham, etc) 2). Visions and dreams 3). the Holy Spirit revealing something to you 4). God answering your prayers 5). God using another person as a spokes person to give you direction, edification, etc. 6). God inspiring men to write the books of the Bible.

Shouldn't these also be considered God's word?

I don't understand how these became interchangeable when in the original manuscript the words used were not the same. Logos is the word John used to describe Jesus, He was the mirror image of the Father:
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son. (John 1:14 NLT)

This is Logos, it describes Jesus.

On the other hand, the word for spoken or utterance is "rhema", this word signifies something that is said, spoken.

They are not the same, One is Christ, the other is any form of communication God has spoken, and no, I don't believe we have every single word God has ever spoken, communicated or uttered. I doubt if any book could hold all of the words God actually spoke- God's words.

I hope that helps.

 

[By Grace]

I have not a clue how or where this began, but the problem is, we have essentially made the Bible equal to God Himself. We should read and value the importance of studying the Bible, but we should keep it in proper perspective. We have mangled , divided, twisted and butchered this message from God by making a declaration that we should follow the Bible instead of Christ Himself.

You are making accusations without giving examples of anything that you state is happening. What you seem to be saying to me is that I should agree with you because you say it. Would that be a correct assessment?

Here are a few examples of what I consider the word as in God speaking to us:
1). Through the angles God sent to enlighten people (Mary, Abraham, etc)
2). Visions and dreams
3). the Holy Spirit revealing something to you
4). God answering your prayers
5). God using another person as a spokes person to give you direction, edification, etc.
6). God inspiring men to write the books of the Bible.

Shouldn't these also be considered God's word?

I do not agree because I believe you are making the things that may be revealed through the ministry of Holy Spirit to be God. Simply put, "It is not He, and He is not it"

I don't understand how these became interchangeable when in the original manuscript the words used were not the same. Logos is the word John used to describe Jesus, He was the mirror image of the Father:
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son. (John 1:14 NLT)

This is Logos, it describes Jesus.

Again, you are stating that these "are interchangeable" and not giving evidence of that.

I hope that helps.

At least you are attempting to communicate, but in candor, I do not see that what you are bringing up is happening anywhere.

 

[Jesse]

You are making accusations without giving examples of anything that you state is happening. What you seem to be saying to me is that I should agree with you because you say it. Would that be a correct assessment?



I do not agree because I believe you are making the things that may be revealed through the ministry of Holy Spirit to be God. Simply put, "It is not He, and He is not it"

You lost me, I am exactly saying that the Holy Spirit is God.

What I am not saying is the Bible is not God.

Again, you are stating that these "are interchangeable" and not giving evidence of that.

Are you playing a game here?

Because I said they are not interchangeable. You are changing my words and what you are saying in your post, makes no sense to me. It's like you're arguing against something you agree with.


Do you know what Logos is?

Rhema?

No offense, but your post is confusing.

 

[Jesse]

Correction on my post above - "I am saying the Bible is not God"

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 1:14 The Word became flesh

So God spoke into humanity. These prophetic words turn into Jesus

The flesh also became Words, because Jesus spoke when he was on earth........and then to the Paul, John and Peter once he was in heaven.

It's like he is leaving a Biography written by himself and we say that it is NOT a part of him, but it IS.

John 1:1 the Word was God

 

[Edward]

We all know the power of the spoken word. God spoke the universe into existence, and God told us to bridle our tongues. Apparently, God dictated the scriptures to the writers word for word, probably spoken.

Who's to say that in a supra-rational way (spiritually) that the spoken word couldn't have power beyond what we can see in the worldly realm?

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart./

Logos is powerful. Logos is not God, but it is sure powerful, being of God. Our own spoken word may also be more powerful than we generally realize or give credit to in the natural realm. We can't limit God on this, we do not know all of His ways. We just don't know for sure. We do know that scripture does speak about the Word as if it can discern the thoughts and intents of our heart...sooo, this implies a power that is above us, and in His book.

It's not Jesus, the person/personality. But who am I to say that it doesn't have power on a spiritual level?

 

[Jesse]

We all know the power of the spoken word. God spoke the universe into existence, and God told us to bridle our tongues. Apparently, God dictated the scriptures to the writers word for word, probably spoken.

Who's to say that in a supra-rational way (spiritually) that the spoken word couldn't have power beyond what we can see in the worldly realm?

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart./

Logos is powerful. Logos is not God, but it is sure powerful, being of God. Our own spoken word may also be more powerful than we generally realize or give credit to in the natural realm. We can't limit God on this, we do not know all of His ways. We just don't know for sure. We do know that scripture does speak about the Word as if it can discern the thoughts and intents of our heart...sooo, this implies a power that is above us, and in His book.

It's not Jesus, the person/personality. But who am I to say that it doesn't have power on a spiritual level?

Yes, I agree that Logos - Christ - is extremely powerful, Rhema - spoke word is also powerful, whatever God speaks does not return in vain.

All can be on a Spiritual level, not just the Bible, God uses many, many people, objects, books, etc as a spiritual tool for our benefit. He breaks His own Laws of nature in order to make His will happen, he does this today, just like we can read in the Bible.

People limit God on a large scale by not seeing ALL of Him and only seeing Him solely through the Bible. He is so much more grander than the Bible, yet people insist that God is the same thing as an object. It is as God says, we worship the created and NOT the Creator.

 

[Edward]

Yes, I agree that Logos - Christ - is extremely powerful, Rhema - spoke word is also powerful, whatever God speaks does not return in vain.

All can be on a Spiritual level, not just the Bible, God uses many, many people, objects, books, etc as a spiritual tool for our benefit. He breaks His own Laws of nature in order to make His will happen, he does this today, just like we can read in the Bible.

People limit God on a large scale by not seeing ALL of Him and only seeing Him solely through the Bible. He is so much more grander than the Bible, yet people insist that God is the same thing as an object. It is as God says, we worship the created and NOT the Creator.

I wonder where our words go after we speak them? There may be an unseen spiritual significance to the Word, and perhaps all spoken words on a spiritual level?

Exactly, brother. God's languages are many. There are a lot of ways that He talks to us. We have to pay attention because all is on a spiritual level and that is how we are to walk in faith. If people walked in faith, they'd see more miracles.

I have to be careful to keep an open mind and not go looking for God with any preconceived notions or limitations. He is who He is, and will reveal Himself in due season. We can easily learn His will from scripture though. It is written, what to think about, think on these things, don't think on those things, and what to speak, let this be your conversation...,do not speak on those other things. While doctrine has it's place, in a way, I think it is less important in this day and age than relationship.

 

[Jesse]

I wonder where our words go after we speak them? There may be an unseen spiritual significance to the Word, and perhaps all spoken words on a spiritual level?

Exactly, brother. God's languages are many. There are a lot of ways that He talks to us. We have to pay attention because all is on a spiritual level and that is how we are to walk in faith. If people walked in faith, they'd see more miracles.

Amen!

When God does something, we have people running back to their Bibles to make sure it 1). fits into their pet doctrine or 2). or has happened to someone else, and if 1 or 2 do not meet their criteria, they blow it off as not God and they miss out on the blessings AND the experience God is trying to give them.

My experiences with God can not exactly be found in the Bible, I would never, not in a million years blow them off because they can't be found there. Testing of spirits, yes, but all good gifts are from God.

 

[LovethroughDove]

When I speak my words, that is me. Just as the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and made the bible come into existence.

Revelation 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says.

 

[Jesse]

(Off topic. Obadiah)

 

[Willie T]

(Off topic. Obadiah)

 

[LovethroughDove]

(Off topic. Obadiah)

 

[Jesse]

(Off topic. Obadiah)

 

[LovethroughDove]

(Off topic. Obadiah)