The Calling of the 144,000

[veteran]

It is nowhere written in God's Word that our Lord Jesus is the Archangel Michael. And the "angel of the LORD" label is not proof of Christ being Michael.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Book of Enoch in our possession are not part of the Canon of God's Word for Christians. Though there is a real Book of Enoch, the version existing today has things in it which God's Word does not confirm. And likewise with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls translations, there's much in those translations that doesn't align with God's Word either. Even some of the Apocrypha books, (which were included in the original 1611 KJV Bible edition), have writings in them that are suspect, which don't align with the majority of The Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

The Prince of Persia is Iran, Christ, Christianity has been detained there (prevented from being preached.) The messenger speaking about Michael in the future is Yahshua.

That sounds like Jehovah Witness teaching. Our Lord Jesus, Yahshua, is not Michael the archangel. If He were, then He would not be God The Son, and our sins would be unforgiven, for the angels were created, and no created being can save us. The idea that Christ is Michael the archangel is a Russel teaching who began the JW movement.

It is definitely not JW or a SDA teaching. You guys say the strangest things to me. I would like everyone to give more careful thought before you answer me. Jesus=Joshua=Yahshua=Angel of the Lord= Messenger of Yahwah=Peniel or Phanuel. The Dead Sea Scrolls and The Book of Enoch say Michael is a flesh and blood man who lives in the last days. The bible also affirms that. When studying the bible ask yourselves, is it past, present, or future; is it literal, or is it parabolic? And like I said before, Jude 1:9 is an insertion and does not belong.

the book of enoch is not canonical.

 

[JudaicChristian]

the book of Enoch is not canonical.

The Book of Enoch was highly prised among Christians. It was the Catholic Church who believed that Christians should not have The Book of Revelation or The Book of Enoch. Personally I do not trust the Catholics when it comes to canonization of scripture.

 

[veteran]

the book of Enoch is not canonical.

The Book of Enoch was highly prised among Christians. It was the Catholic Church who believed that Christians should not have The Book of Revelation or The Book of Enoch. Personally I do not trust the Catholics when it comes to canonization of scripture.

Then you open up yourself to the many books written by Gnostics which joined Christian doctrine in with their pagan neoplatonism ideas back in the 2nd century A.D. The 1611 KJV Bible was not put together by the Catholic Church anyway. They did use some of the Latin texts for reference, but mostly from the Greek Textus Receptus manuscripts for the NT, and the Hebrew Massoretic texts for the OT. You can also get a Greek Septuagint Bible which the early Greek speaking Christians used, and not find those outside books.

 

[jasoncran]

My grandparents are practicing hebrews and they have the hebrew testament. No mention of the book of enoch there or any other apocraphra.

If the jews didnt consider it(apocraphra) then and now as scripture, but as an historical book and extra biblical source, but not the inspired thing.

the book of the maccabees one to three are good historical refereneces to the maccabean seige of jerusalem.

mdo57 who was adam's first wife then eve or lilith? the noncanonical books say lilith not eve? so which one is right. The book of genesis or the apocrapha? if they are all inspired books then they must harmonize, and not contradict each other.

 

[JudaicChristian]

the book of Enoch is not canonical.

The Book of Enoch was highly prised among Christians. It was the Catholic Church who believed that Christians should not have The Book of Revelation or The Book of Enoch. Personally I do not trust the Catholics when it comes to canonization of scripture.

Then you open up yourself to the many books written by Gnostics which joined Christian doctrine in with their pagan neoplatonism ideas back in the 2nd century A.D. The 1611 KJV Bible was not put together by the Catholic Church anyway. They did use some of the Latin texts for reference, but mostly from the Greek Textus Receptus manuscripts for the NT, and the Hebrew Massoretic texts for the OT. You can also get a Greek Septuagint Bible which the early Greek speaking Christians used, and not find those outside books.

I do not accept any kind of Gnostic rubbish. There are a number of Enoch Gnostic books. There is only one that is inspired, the same that was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are also Gnostic corruptions in our scriptures also. You just need to know what to watch out for.
Genesis 5:24
Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 3:37
the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

 

[JudaicChristian]

My grandparents are practicing hebrews and they have the hebrew testament. No mention of the book of enoch there or any other apocraphra.

If the jews didnt consider it(apocraphra) then and now as scripture, but as an historical book and extra biblical source, but not the inspired thing.

the book of the maccabees one to three are good historical refereneces to the maccabean seige of jerusalem.

mdo57 who was adam's first wife then eve or lilith? the noncanonical books say lilith not eve? so which one is right. The book of genesis or the apocrapha? if they are all inspired books then they must harmonize, and not contradict each other.

Lilith is Gnostic rubbish.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Jude and Paul thought of it as inspired.

 

[guysmith]

Isaiah 31

4 This is what the LORD says to me:
"As a lion growls,
a great lion over his prey—
and though a whole band of shepherds
is called together against him,
he is not frightened by their shouts
or disturbed by their clamor—
so the LORD Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

5 Like birds hovering overhead,
the LORD Almighty will shield Jerusalem;
he will shield it and deliver it,
he will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."

This is the calling of the 144,000.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[JudaicChristian]

Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (Mount Zion.) Armageddon is a misspelled word.
Isaiah 29:8
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains; as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched. So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.

Isaiah 31:4
This is what the LORD says to me: "As a lion growls, a great lion over his prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against him, he is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the LORD Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

Isaiah 37:32
For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

 

[guysmith]

Hello mdo,

You stated: Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (Mount Zion.) Armageddon is a misspelled word.
Isaiah 29:8
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains; as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched. So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.

Isaiah 31:4
This is what the LORD says to me: "As a lion growls, a great lion over his prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against him, he is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the LORD Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

Isaiah 37:32
For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

My response: Obvious, isn't it?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hello mdo,

You stated: Revelation 16:16
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (Mount Zion.) Armageddon is a misspelled word.
My response: Obvious, isn't it?
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

It is obvious to me. Sometimes I wonder if the error was delibrate. As a parable, zion is not only a place, but the faithful of God. Christians need to remember that they are a grafted branch.

 

[guysmith]

Christ suggest that there will be Christian individuals that will physically escape the coming tribulation period. He further clarifies that they will be found standing with Him..

Luke 21: 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

In the end, the only ones found “standing†with Christ are the 144K. John states that they will “redeemed from the earth†and be found with Christ on Mount Zion.

Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

The prophet Joel confirms this by stating that there will be Christian “survivors†on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Joel 2:32And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

This is the calling of the 144,000 and the daughters of Zion

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[guysmith]

The most important thing can be summed up in the following verses

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Whether you are alive or have died in Christ, it makes no difference. However, Christ did say:

Luke 21:36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

....which suggest that there will be Christian individuals that will be alive at Christ's advent and that we should pray that we are found worthy to be alive at this monumental event. If this is the case, one might ask if there are more scriptures which provide us with details about Christian individuals which will be alive at Christ's advent?

In Revelation, John states in the parable of "the woman and the manchild" that the woman will flee to "a place" (not many places) prepared by God where she will be fed and protected for the 1260 day duration of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 12: 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days....
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The question now is: who is the woman? For discussion sake, let's go with Israel as many believe. So, are there any scriptures which describe representatives of Israel together with Christ? John provides us with some insight.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

...and the place is Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

This is the calling of the 144,000 and the daughters of Zion.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[JudaicChristian]

....which suggest that there will be Christian individuals that will be alive at Christ's advent and that we should pray that we are found worthy to be alive at this monumental event. If this is the case, one might ask if there are more scriptures which provide us with details about Christian individuals which will be alive at Christ's advent?

In Revelation, John states in the parable of "the woman and the manchild" that the woman will flee to "a place" (not many places) prepared by God where she will be fed and protected for the 1260 day duration of the Great Tribulation.
...and the place is Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

This is the calling of the 144,000 and the daughters of Zion.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Yes there are more scriptures about the survival of Christians in the last days, but they are hard to find. The wording is different. For example: The ten virgins, virgin Daughter-s of Zion, Mount Zion. And you can find clues under the number "seven." Mount Zion is in Jerusalem.

 

[guysmith]

Hello mdo,

You stated: Yes there are more scriptures about the survival of Christians in the last days, but they are hard to find. The wording is different. For example: The ten virgins, virgin Daughter-s of Zion, Mount Zion. And you can find clues under the number "seven." Mount Zion is in Jerusalem.

My response: I agree. How do you see "the ten virgins" play out?

Guy

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hello mdo,

You stated: Yes there are more scriptures about the survival of Christians in the last days, but they are hard to find. The wording is different. For example: The ten virgins, virgin Daughter-s of Zion, Mount Zion. And you can find clues under the number "seven." Mount Zion is in Jerusalem.

My response: I agree. How do you see "the ten virgins" play out?

Guy

This is all that I know for certain. It has to do with the last days before and during the first resurrection. About a time period of about 42 years. The ten virgins represent the ten toes of Babylon (The Statue image.) The ten toes will come into being after a terrible world war, and they will become like beast themselves. After the Two Witnesses the world population will be half Christian; that is the oil, those who are truly anointed, is having oil. There will still be until his end the false prophet and false Christians also. A stone from heaven /space will strike the foot of that beast. People who are far away will wonder about whose name is written in the book of life, when they see who that beast is.

 

[guysmith]

Zechariah 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Those individuals that Christ is coming to fight for in Jerusalem are:

1. Christian.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

2. They do not possess the-mark-of-the-beast.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Mount Zion in Jerusalem is the-place-of-safety where God has called his "elect" to gather for the duration of the Great Tribulation.

In Yehoshua,
GuySmith

 

[guysmith]

Not everyone is called to this calling. However, there are plenty of passages which suggest traveling to Jerusalem.


Isaiah 2: 2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.



In Yehoshua,

Guy Smith

 

[NJBeliever]

Wow. Where are these ideas coming from?

Revelation 14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

So first off the 144,000 are on Mt. Sion (which is in Heaven) with Jesus. They follow Jesus where ever he goes. They have no guile (a term used to describe Christ Himself) and have no fault before God. Additionally they are called "firstfruits" to God and The Lamb. How can this be? It seems that they are not just regular Jewish virgins who heard the call.

I think people reverse engineering this topic. Instead of taking a group of people and putting them in this chapter, I think it may be better to start with what the chapter says because it seems that the Scripture is saying that these are not just ordinary people who are virgins. God bless.