The Calling of the 144,000

[veteran]

Hello Veteran,

So, what do you think Christ was trying to convey when He stated:

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Guy

Do you think that one verse somehow cancels out what our Lord Jesus said in the verses I posted? It does not. Being able to "stand before the Son of Man" doesn't have anything to do with our flesh being saved. It has to do with the condition of our soul, about remaining faithful to Him to the end, even to the death of our flesh. That's who will be standing before Him when He comes, in their resurrected bodies. Everyone will go through the resurrection when He comes, including the unjust. The only difference will be the condition of one's soul, either being given Eternal LIfe of the first resurrection, or being concluded with the unbelievers in the "outer darkness".

 

[lecoop]

Hello veteran and andrew,

I understand your positions; that you prefer to be martyred than to be alive at Christ's advent.

Guy

I think our Lord Jesus covered the idea pretty well like Paul did, IF we truly listen...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Those who think to escape the tribulation are seeking to save their life. This is why the pre-trib doctrines of men wrongly confuse even the "great tribualtion" with the time of God's wrath, which God's wrath actually is what ends the tribulation by a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked. That gathering of where the eagles will be gathered is in the negative sense. See Matt.24:28 where "body" is rendered "carcase", a pointer to the spiritually dead being gathered by false ones. That also links to those of Rev.9 that the locusts are not allowed to kill, because they have not God's sealing.

Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
(KJV)

Does that sound like our Lord Jesus said we should exprect to escape the tribulation? God's wrath which comes later to end the tribulation yes, but not the tribulation which occurs first.

It will be better to have made a stand for Christ during the tribulation, even to the death, than to be found spiritually naked when He comes because of bowing to worship another in His place, simply because one feared for their life. I do not believe all who will make that stand for Christ will be martyred anyway. Howbeit, we are not to fear death for making that stand as per our Lord's own words.

Veteran would try to throw a curve ball here. But he is not really good at it.

For the readers: when someone sends you a scripture always ask: WHO is this scripture directed TO?
There are THREE groups of people on the earth, and any end time scripture might be talking about any one of the three. When somone is confused as to WHO the scripture is direct to, then confusion reigns.

1. The church
2. The Jews / hebrews
3. The Nations

So, in this scripture above, WHO are these verses direct to?
Jesus speaking:
Luke 17
...“The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’[e] Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples BEFORE the church was started. They are JEWS/Hebrews/Descendants of Abraham. Jesus is speaking about the "70th week of DANIEL." Just so you don't forget, Daniel too was a Hebrew. We KNOW there will be one coming that will be an antichrist - meaning IN THE PLACE of Christ. He will be FULL of deceit. Jesus said people will be saying Christ is here or Christ is there. But Jesus shows them that at that time they must ignore all that for the REAL Christ will come as lightning and there will be NO DOUBT as to who He will be. Therefore, it is clear that Jesus is speaking of the days of the 70th week. Now we have the timing established AND WHOM these verses are directed to: the JEWS.

25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

Notice now, Jesus jumped from His coming, back to the present time for those in 33 AD: "first He must suffer many things..." So now we must read what follows to see what the timing is there.


26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Many people want to draw the WRONG conclusion from Noah: Jesus tells us His point: they were living normal lives; marrying eating and drinking right up until the rain came and they all died. Same with those living in Sodam: then had NO CLUE when the got up, that that would be their last morning alive. In other words, Jesus is speaking of the SUDDENNESS of His coming. But, WHICH coming? If one sees only ONE coming, they will be confused to the end: there are TWO. After the end of the 70th week, anyone that knows scripture will KNOW He will split the sky any time! Could that describe a thief?

1 Thes 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!†then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.

Heb 9:28 .... To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

The "day of the Lord will come SUDDENLY while people are thinking "peace and safety." This is EXACTLY the point Jesus was making with Noah and Lot. Paul says sudden destruction comes on THEY and THEM, but NOT on US.

1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The sudden destruction does NOT come un US, because we have no appointment with "sudden destruction." We, the church, are taken OUT of the world just before the "sudden Destruction." Notice in Hebrews 9:28, Jesus ONLY appears to those that are looking for Him. This is not and cannot be the same coming as in "every eye will see Him."

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.

So what is Jesus really saying here? Who is he speaking to? He has just covered the time of the 6th seal, before the 70th week, the time of "sudden destruction." It is when people are eating and drinking and thinking all is well. But, what time is it now, in verse 31? Jesus said, "In that day..." and he talks about fleeing. In Matthew 24, He talked about fleeing at the abomination: so here in verse 31, he is at the midpoint of the week - and the time to RUN FOR YOUR LIFE. But, this is ONLY for those living in Judea. The church is now GONE to our mansions in the sky. In verse 34, Jesus is speaking of the day of His return. So verses 32 and 33 are referring to some time BETWEEN the midpoint of the week and the end of the week. But, I believe it fits with verse 31, and NOT with verse 34 - so it is speaking of the time of fleeing from the antichrist. It is then, during the reign of terror, that if one is caught, He or she must LOSE His life to save it. If one chooses to save His physical life, it will be ONLY be denying Christ and/or taking the mark. Therefore, verse 33 is ONLY pointed to those suffering IN that week - and not referring to the church at all. These will be Jews/Hebrews, AND any new Gentile believers.

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.â€

Many people want to take this to be the rapture of the church, and those "taken" are taken by Jesus or the angels. Nothing could be FARTHER from the truth: This is the parable of the tares being played out for real: Angels come to separate the wicked out; Angels snatch the spirit right out of the body, the body falls dead, food for flesh eating birds, and the spirits of those people are cast right into hell. When will this happen? I can convinced Jesus sends out the angels while He is still descending. So by now, Jesus has finished the 70th week in this brief narrative, and is right at His appearing when "every eye will see Him."

Jesus covered the entire church age, and the 70th week, in just a few verses.

Veteran wrote:

Those who think to escape the tribulation are seeking to save their life. This is why the pre-trib doctrines of men wrongly confuse even the "great tribualtion" with the time of God's wrath, which God's wrath actually is what ends the tribulation by a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked.

This is pure imagination, and is as far removed from the intent of the scriptures as East is from the West. it is written plainly that we have no appointment with ANY PART of the day of the Lord - and that day will come as a thief in the night. People will be dwelling in peace and safety - like RIGHT NOW. But SUDDENLY the church will be GONE, and "they" and "them" will face the day of the Lord. Veteran needs to retake Prophecy 101. John makes it very clear, when one will not rearrange Revelation, that during the day of the Lord, which begins at the 7th seal, BOTH God's wrath AND Satans wrath are happening at the same time. When the first vial of God's wrath is poured out, the beast's killing machine is going full bore - all out - at its peak. Veteran even gets the time of "sudden destruction" wrong. It comes BEFORE the day of the Lord, with the signs of the 6th seal. OF COURSE we know that those days of great tribulation will come AFTER the abomination. Where is that in Revelation? In chapter 11, FAR after the 6th seal. So the days of great tribulation, in John's chronology, will be happening in chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16. But, in chapters 12-14, John has not really left the midpoint of the week, so MOST of those days of great tribulation will be happening IN CHAPTER 16, at the same time God is pouring out the vials of His wrath. Did anyone notice WHERE they are poured out?

Does that sound like our Lord Jesus said we should exprect to escape the tribulation? God's wrath which comes later to end the tribulation yes, but not the tribulation which occurs first.

Veteran wites this about a verse directed to the church of Smyrna. It has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with the church of today. He is right in one respect, God does pour out the vials of His wrath on the kingdom of the beast, to shorthen those days of great tribulation.

Coop

 

[Andrew]

I'll be looking forward to your posts the day AFTER the abomination that causes desolation Coop.
I look forward to your repentance, but I wonder if you will actually have the same attitude.
Make sure you let us all know, as you do now, how "right" you are.
I want to hear you say, "I got left behind".
Obviously you anger me; I think you promote heresy and deception and create confusion. Who else do I know who bears that fruit?
When you see one of those two guys in sack cloth prophesying, stay clear, don't even think of coming close.
It is the victims of your words who I'm most concerned with, and the reason for my words here.
Yes, come Lord Jesus.

 

[lecoop]

I'll be looking forward to your posts the day AFTER the abomination that causes desolation Coop.
I look forward to your repentance, but I wonder if you will actually have the same attitude.
Make sure you let us all know, as you do now, how "right" you are.
I want to hear you say, "I got left behind".
Obviously you anger me; I think you promote heresy and deception and create confusion. Who else do I know who bears that fruit?
When you see one of those two guys in sack cloth prophesying, stay clear, don't even think of coming close.
It is the victims of your words who I'm most concerned with, and the reason for my words here.
Yes, come Lord Jesus.

Sorry to disappoint you, Andrew! I won't BE HERE. God has promised to deliver us from wrath.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I did not write this: Paul did.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

I will be saved and delivered from the wrath to come. He will appear to me, because I am looking for Him.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If you are looking for the beast, I am quite sure you will see him, and according the this verse in Hebrews, Christ will not appear for you. Sadly, you will be left behind - because you will be looking for the wrong thing.

Obviously you anger me; I think you promote heresy and deception and create confusion. Who else do I know who bears that fruit?

People don't anger me: FALSE doctrine angers me. Doctrines of devils anger me - when they are declared to be truth. I am convinced there will be a high cost to those that are looking for the antichrist BEFORE they will be looking for Christ. Andrew, you have believed a deception.

I know, this is not the word of God, but the scripture above backs this up: It is a vison from an 8 year old girl.

"After that we arrived at the Throne of God, and the Lord said, "Servant, come here." We went out of the Throne room and arrived at a place with a very tiny window. The Lord said, "Servant, now look down." I saw terrible desolation, such tremendous desolation, the whole Earth was desolate and full of pain. The Lord said, "Look servant, this is what is going to be after I have taken My people from the Earth, this will be after My coming, this will be when My church is here with Me." I saw such tremendous desolation.

I saw people that were celebrating one moment, but then, I saw a father looking for his son, a mother looking for her daughters, but they couldn't find them, because Almighty God had taken them. Relatives were looking for other relatives but they could not find them. People were looking for their neighbors but couldn't find them, because the Lord had taken them up with Him.

Something terrible what was happening over all the Earth. I saw a pastor running from one place to another, and I asked the Lord, "Lord, why does that man run from one place to another?" The Lord replied, "Servant, this man was a pastor, but because he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind." The pastor was running all over, saying "Lord, why was I left behind? If I am a pastor, if I have a position in the church, and the church is gone, I am left behind? Why have I been left behind?" The Lord said, "Servant, I can't do anything now, he thought My coming was going to delay, well, he was left behind."

I saw how that man was persecuted. He said, "The only thing I want is to be taken with Christ! The only thing that I want is to be with the Lord because I do not want to be here and suffer in the great tribulation!" He kept running from place to place and asking himself, "Why was I left behind? Take me with You Lord! I don't want to be here and suffer!" The Lord said, "Servant, there is nothing I can do now, for a long time I talked with him and told him that I was going to come very soon, but he didn't believe me, well, now he is left behind."

I saw many other people running all over. So many people were running, desperate trying to find peace but they could not find it. They were shouting, "We want the Word of life! We are thirsty of the Word of God!" But it was already too late, because the Lord had taken the church with Him."

http://www.divinerevelations.info/Docum ... lation.htm

Now, read again what Paul wrote in Hebrews:

... and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

If this is true - and it certainly is - then the "flip side" is also true: "unto them that are NOT looking for Him, He shall NOT appear...."

So, Andrew, you tell me: HOW can you be looking for Him, if in your heart, you believe you will see the antichrist first?

Coop

 

[Andrew]

Quite simply Coop, you assume.
I too can quote all the scripture I want to say what I want to hear and hope my readers will buy it.
There is no part of scripture that God does NOT allow His chosen people to be a part of, not one.
Why, in the end, would God change His long standing history?
It is absolutely foolish to believe that God would say the end will come when the gospel has been preached throughout the whole world and also believe that He would leave this task to .0000214 of the worlds population to accomplish the task (about 1:50,000)
When the gifts of the Spirit are so utterly important to help this task it makes no sense for God to abandon those He would lead to repentance.
We are the hands and feet of Christ.
The objective is to save all who would turn to Him.
Removing your hands and feet prior to executing your intentions is quite simply, a hidden lie called the Pre-Trib rapture.

The result of believing this will leave the believer of it, "Left behind"; thus opening the door to a weakened faith that doesn't understand why, and worse, open to thinking they have no faith at all, that they were left behind because they were never saved at all.

That is as dangerous as it can get, and you propagate it!

The separation of God's children from Him is the goal of the evil one and everyone who serves him.

For the Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. EVERYTHING is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:12,13.

You disgust me because there are BILLIONS of souls at stake here and you act like this is a game.

You're on my turf. I'm here to protect these souls. You lie; you speak words that will destroy, and you will bow down.

I believe in the saints. I'm certain they are strong to stand, and that they will; for God will see to it that they do. Tear that down pal.

 

[lecoop]

Quite simply Coop, you assume.
I too can quote all the scripture I want to say what I want to hear and hope my readers will buy it.
There is no part of scripture that God does NOT allow His chosen people to be a part of, not one.
Why, in the end, would God change His long standing history?
It is absolutely foolish to believe that God would say the end will come when the gospel has been preached throughout the whole world and also believe that He would leave this task to .0000214 of the worlds population to accomplish the task (about 1:50,000)
When the gifts of the Spirit are so utterly important to help this task it makes no sense for God to abandon those He would lead to repentance.
We are the hands and feet of Christ.
The objective is to save all who would turn to Him.
Removing your hands and feet prior to executing your intentions is quite simply, a hidden lie called the Pre-Trib rapture.

The result of believing this will leave the believer of it, "Left behind"; thus opening the door to a weakened faith that doesn't understand why, and worse, open to thinking they have no faith at all, that they were left behind because they were never saved at all.

That is as dangerous as it can get, and you propagate it!

The separation of God's children from Him is the goal of the evil one and everyone who serves him.

For the Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. EVERYTHING is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:12,13.

You disgust me because there are BILLIONS of souls at stake here and you act like this is a game.

You're on my turf. I'm here to protect these souls. You lie; you speak words that will destroy, and you will bow down.

I believe in the saints. I'm certain they are strong to stand, and that they will; for God will see to it that they do. Tear that down pal.

You can continue to believe a lie if you choose. We all have that freedom. But I can assure you, all of heaven believes in the rapture coming before the 70th week, before the Day of the Lord, and before the "trib." I am not sure when you believe the rapture will come, but anything else than before the 70th week is not the truth of the scripture, and definitely not the desire of God.

There has always been "billions of souls" at stake. But what did Paul say?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)

Andrew, are you STILL ignorant of this mystery? One day soon, God will decide that this "fulness" has come in, and then it will be time for Daniel's 70th week. The terrors of the Day of the Lord are not meant for US - the Gentile church. The purpose is to get Israel into a place she will have NO OTHER OPTION than to call on God for help.

Dan 12
7...and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and
when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, (KJV)
When the power of the holy people has been finally broken (NIV)
as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people (NASB)
when they have made an end of shattering and crushing the power of the holy people (Amp)
when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people (ASV)
all these things shall be finished.

Andrew, this is NOT speaking of the Gentile church - it is directed straight to the Jews/Hebrews. It is THEIR power that is to be shattered. The purpose of God during this time has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the church. During the 70th week, God will be concentrating on the Jews.

Of course millions of Gentiles will turn to God during the 70th week too. But the church will not be here.

There is no part of scripture that God does NOT allow His chosen people to be a part of, not one.

Andrew, this is simply NOT TRUE. Why make such a statement? Did you not read?

Heb 11
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Did you not stop to think: NO ONE under the old covenant was "born of the Spirit." They had to live as dead men, with their spirit dead to God. As God said, we live under a "new and better covenant."

Did you not notice? Only 144,000 JEWS/hebrews will be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgements. Not the church, and NO GENTILES. The ONLY people protected here will be the 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. If the church were on earth at this time, WHY would God give them (the 144,000) special protection and NOT HIS OWN kids - those that are a part of HIS OWN BODY - the church?

Go back and read: John SAW the church in Rev. 7, having just been raptured. The Church was taken out just before the 144,000 were sealed - and just before the 7th seal officially opens the day of the Lord AND the 70th week. Why can you not understand this? How can we come back with Jesus in Rev. 19, AFTER the WEDDING supper, if we did not get up there before?

What part of the world do you think the Gospel is NOT getting into right now?
What "end" was Jesus speaking of?
Do you think "this gospel of the kingdom" is the same gospel we preach now?
(All my life I have heard preaching of the spiritual kingdom - but I suspect Jesus is speaking of the coming PHYSICAL kingdom. When the 70th week begins, the physical kingdom will be only 7 years away.)

Jesus said this, about the gospel of the kingdom being preached in all the world, JUST before he spoke of the abomination. So at that time, it would be only 3 1/2 years before His millennial kingdom would be set up. Therefore, I belive the "end" he was speaking of, would be His return on the white horse.

As you know from Rev. 14, ANGELS will be preaching then, to all people in all languages. So this is not something that we, the church, have to worry about. God has said that every human on the planet will hear in his own language, first to fear God and worship Him, then a prophecy that Babylon is fallen, and finally a warning NOT to take the mark, else you will be doomed.

You can be SURE God will not abandon anyone that truly wants to come to Him, even up to the last minute before He comes on the white horse. In fact, LATE in the game, He warns people, just before He comes:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

The truly "left behind" will be first, any of the nations that have not trusted in Jesus - all people from false religions, all people with NO religion or belief in God, and second, I suspect, even people that are born again, but believe they will see the beast first. It is written that He appears only to those looking for Him. If you are convincing people that they will see the beast BEFORE they see Jesus, that is not only a doctrine of a devil, it will cause them to miss the rapture and be left behind with you. So I see your doctrine as dangerous.

believe in the saints. I'm certain they are strong to stand, and that they will; for God will see to it that they do. Tear that down pal

This is pure ignorance of the scriptures - gone to seed.

Daniel 7:21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

What part of "prevailed against" do you not get?

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,

What part of "wear out" do you not get?

Rev 13
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:...

When it comes to end time doctrine - we MUST follow the scriptures. There are too many that have theories based upon human imagination.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hello Andrew,

When the GT begins, all who do not accept the "mark of the beast," will systematically hearded into concentration camps and executed. This is the fate of all Christians who do not heed the warning of the prophets which state that the only "survivors" will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

You have stated that you would like to be alive at Christ's advent, to "stand on this planet" and see His coming. I want to believe you.

Your options are as follows:

1. When the GT begins, all who do not accept the "mark of the beast," will systematically hearded into concentration camps and executed.

2. Heed the warning of the prophets which state that the only "survivors" will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

There is a 3rd option:

Believe the scriptures - be looking for His coming, and be taken out in the first load, pretrib, prewrath, and pre day of the Lord. Then, you will not be here for the revealing of the beast, or the mark of the beast. You will be in heaven, enjoying your new mansion, taking part in the marriage and marriage supper. Always remember, when Jesus "returns" it will be AFTER the wedding.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Boy, now we've got the Pre-Tribbers offering visions by a little 8 year old girl that speaks words on the level of at least a freshman in college! Which of course that would be one SUPER SMART little 8 year old if she really did speak all those words of that vision. That's simply a hoax, wherever it came from. There's nothing some won't try.

Christ already showed what happens to the first one TAKEN, and it's not to Him...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Matt 24:28-31
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

There's a reason why our Lord Jesus included that warning with those Luke 17 verses, that whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

 

[lecoop]

Boy, now we've got the Pre-Tribbers offering visions by a little 8 year old girl that speaks words on the level of at least a freshman in college! Which of course that would be one SUPER SMART little 8 year old if she really did speak all those words of that vision. That's simply a hoax, wherever it came from. There's nothing some won't try.

Christ already showed what happens to the first one TAKEN, and it's not to Him...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Matt 24:28-31
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

There's a reason why our Lord Jesus included that warning with those Luke 17 verses, that whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

Visons are scriptural. But just like prophecy, we are to judge them. Did you find something in what she said that was NOT scriptural? You THINK it was a hoax. Do you know this girl? Do you know her family? You cannot judge just by your feelings. You judge these things by scripture. But then, that is exactly what the Pharisees did with Jesus - and they missed by a country mile - because of preconceived ideas of God's word.

You said,

Christ already showed what happens to the first one TAKEN, and it's not to Him...

" I say! Well, I say! Went right over his head!" "There's nothing some won't try." There are different TIMES and different occasions that people are taken.

Here, JESUS is the one "taken."

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

This "taken" was the VERY FIRST. Really, Veteran, what kind of discerment do you have concerning scriptures? You are taking a verse totally out of context. This "taken" you are referring to is probably the parable of the tares being accomplished.

Matt 12
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with 1 Thes. 4:17 - and will be accomplished about 7 years AFTER the rapture of the church. People have been trying for years, to make Matthew 24:31 the rapture of the church. They have failed as you will. It is not about the rapture. It is not about the church. What kind of discernment do you have concerning scriptures?

You can quote Exekiel all you want, but 1 Thes 4:17 says clearly that we will meet our Lord IN THE AIR. HOW will we get up into the air, unless we fly? Sorry, angels do not carry us. What does the song say? "I'll fly away." Why is this so difficult for you to believe? Jesus flew up into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, in front of many people. Why is it so hard for you to believe that we will do the same?

Coop

 

[Sinthesis]

I know, this is not the word of God, but the scripture above backs this up: It is a vison from an 8 year old girl.

"After that we arrived at the Throne of God, and the Lord said, "Servant, come here." We went out of the Throne room and arrived at a place with a very tiny window. The Lord said, "Servant, now look down." I saw terrible desolation, such tremendous desolation, the whole Earth was desolate and full of pain. The Lord said, "Look servant, this is what is going to be after I have taken My people from the Earth, this will be after My coming, this will be when My church is here with Me." I saw such tremendous desolation.

I saw people that were celebrating one moment, but then, I saw a father looking for his son, a mother looking for her daughters, but they couldn't find them, because Almighty God had taken them. Relatives were looking for other relatives but they could not find them. People were looking for their neighbors but couldn't find them, because the Lord had taken them up with Him.

Something terrible what was happening over all the Earth. I saw a pastor running from one place to another, and I asked the Lord, "Lord, why does that man run from one place to another?" The Lord replied, "Servant, this man was a pastor, but because he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind." The pastor was running all over, saying "Lord, why was I left behind? If I am a pastor, if I have a position in the church, and the church is gone, I am left behind? Why have I been left behind?" The Lord said, "Servant, I can't do anything now, he thought My coming was going to delay, well, he was left behind."

I saw how that man was persecuted. He said, "The only thing I want is to be taken with Christ! The only thing that I want is to be with the Lord because I do not want to be here and suffer in the great tribulation!" He kept running from place to place and asking himself, "Why was I left behind? Take me with You Lord! I don't want to be here and suffer!" The Lord said, "Servant, there is nothing I can do now, for a long time I talked with him and told him that I was going to come very soon, but he didn't believe me, well, now he is left behind."

I saw many other people running all over. So many people were running, desperate trying to find peace but they could not find it. They were shouting, "We want the Word of life! We are thirsty of the Word of God!" But it was already too late, because the Lord had taken the church with Him."

http://www.divinerevelations.info/Docum ... lation.htm

Coop

I'm sure they mean well, but attributing their own words to Jesus is still blasphemy.

 

[lecoop]

I know, this is not the word of God, but the scripture above backs this up: It is a vison from an 8 year old girl.

"After that we arrived at the Throne of God, and the Lord said, "Servant, come here." We went out of the Throne room and arrived at a place with a very tiny window. The Lord said, "Servant, now look down." I saw terrible desolation, such tremendous desolation, the whole Earth was desolate and full of pain. The Lord said, "Look servant, this is what is going to be after I have taken My people from the Earth, this will be after My coming, this will be when My church is here with Me." I saw such tremendous desolation.

I saw people that were celebrating one moment, but then, I saw a father looking for his son, a mother looking for her daughters, but they couldn't find them, because Almighty God had taken them. Relatives were looking for other relatives but they could not find them. People were looking for their neighbors but couldn't find them, because the Lord had taken them up with Him.

Something terrible what was happening over all the Earth. I saw a pastor running from one place to another, and I asked the Lord, "Lord, why does that man run from one place to another?" The Lord replied, "Servant, this man was a pastor, but because he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind." The pastor was running all over, saying "Lord, why was I left behind? If I am a pastor, if I have a position in the church, and the church is gone, I am left behind? Why have I been left behind?" The Lord said, "Servant, I can't do anything now, he thought My coming was going to delay, well, he was left behind."

I saw how that man was persecuted. He said, "The only thing I want is to be taken with Christ! The only thing that I want is to be with the Lord because I do not want to be here and suffer in the great tribulation!" He kept running from place to place and asking himself, "Why was I left behind? Take me with You Lord! I don't want to be here and suffer!" The Lord said, "Servant, there is nothing I can do now, for a long time I talked with him and told him that I was going to come very soon, but he didn't believe me, well, now he is left behind."

I saw many other people running all over. So many people were running, desperate trying to find peace but they could not find it. They were shouting, "We want the Word of life! We are thirsty of the Word of God!" But it was already too late, because the Lord had taken the church with Him."

http://www.divinerevelations.info/Docum ... lation.htm

Coop

I'm sure they mean well, but attributing their own words to Jesus is still blasphemy.

SAY WHAT? Are you a little confused? Or am I not understanding you?

Matthew 28
20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you....

How could they teach what Jesus commanded them, WITHOUT telling them what Jesus said?

1 Cor 12
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy,...

What is prophecy but speaking what God tells one to speak?

Here is an example:

Isa 6
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:
“ Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?â€
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.â€
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

Isaiah hear the voice of the Lord, and He wrote for us what the Lord said. So - you tell me? What has she done differently that has been done down through the centuries?

Coop

 

[Andrew]

Bahh, bahh, bahh, you sound like a sheep but smell of wolf. You spit out venom disguised as truth. You dare to deny the Word of God.
Jude said, "In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude:8,9. NIV
So tell me Coop, where in the entire Bible is this statement backed up by other scripture?
You're winging it!
You're hoping, but it's not in the Lord.
I'd really would like to know you will repent, I really do.

 

[veteran]

I know, this is not the word of God, but the scripture above backs this up: It is a vison from an 8 year old girl.


"I saw people that were celebrating one moment, but then, I saw a father looking for his son, a mother looking for her daughters, but they couldn't find them, because Almighty God had taken them. Relatives were looking for other relatives but they could not find them. People were looking for their neighbors but couldn't find them, because the Lord had taken them up with Him."

It's actually pretty easy to discern that's a hoax. The above paragraph is assuming a Pre-Trib "secret rapture", the false idea of Christ coming to gather His with their suddenly disappearing on earth from those "Left-behind". It reads just like something written out of the Pre-trib school. And of course it is not Biblical, because God's Word declares that all peoples will SEE Christ's coming with glory and power, and then He gathers His elect from the four winds, which is how our Lord defined His coming and the gathering in Matthew 24.

"Something terrible what was happening over all the Earth. I saw a pastor running from one place to another, and I asked the Lord, "Lord, why does that man run from one place to another?" The Lord replied, "Servant, this man was a pastor, but because he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind." The pastor was running all over, saying "Lord, why was I left behind? If I am a pastor, if I have a position in the church, and the church is gone, I am left behind? Why have I been left behind?" The Lord said, "Servant, I can't do anything now, he thought My coming was going to delay, well, he was left behind."

There's that Left-behind idea again, a doctrine specifically preached by the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" school, a doctrine that is clearly not written in God's Word which only began in 1830's Great Britain. What is written, is that when Christ comes to gather His saints, the resurrection happens, and all... are changed at the twinkling of an eye, at an instant, right then the resurrection of both the just and the unjust happenning (John 5:29; 1 Cor.15).

I saw how that man was persecuted. He said, "The only thing I want is to be taken with Christ! The only thing that I want is to be with the Lord because I do not want to be here and suffer in the great tribulation!" He kept running from place to place and asking himself, "Why was I left behind? Take me with You Lord! I don't want to be here and suffer!" The Lord said, "Servant, there is nothing I can do now, for a long time I talked with him and told him that I was going to come very soon, but he didn't believe me, well, now he is left behind."

And once again, there's that false idea that Christ's coming is BEFORE the "great tribulation", when Christ showed in Matthew 24 His coming is AFTER the tribulation of those days. This is not difficult at all to discern that document is bearing false witness, whoever it originated from. So I don't have to worry about rebuking whoever put out that hoax, because God's Word is the measure, not the falsehood that document contains.

 

[guysmith]

The topic of this thread the is calling of the 144,000 and concerns the calling of those which will be alive at Christ's advent at the end of the Great Tribulation. If you guys want to have another USELESS rapture debate, why don't you take it to another thread.

 

[Sinthesis]

I know, this is not the word of God, but the scripture above backs this up: It is a vison from an 8 year old girl.

"After that we arrived at the Throne of God, and the Lord said, "Servant, come here." We went out of the Throne room and arrived at a place with a very tiny window. The Lord said, "Servant, now look down." I saw terrible desolation, such tremendous desolation, the whole Earth was desolate and full of pain. The Lord said, "Look servant, this is what is going to be after I have taken My people from the Earth, this will be after My coming, this will be when My church is here with Me." I saw such tremendous desolation.

I saw people that were celebrating one moment, but then, I saw a father looking for his son, a mother looking for her daughters, but they couldn't find them, because Almighty God had taken them. Relatives were looking for other relatives but they could not find them. People were looking for their neighbors but couldn't find them, because the Lord had taken them up with Him.

Something terrible what was happening over all the Earth. I saw a pastor running from one place to another, and I asked the Lord, "Lord, why does that man run from one place to another?" The Lord replied, "Servant, this man was a pastor, but because he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind." The pastor was running all over, saying "Lord, why was I left behind? If I am a pastor, if I have a position in the church, and the church is gone, I am left behind? Why have I been left behind?" The Lord said, "Servant, I can't do anything now, he thought My coming was going to delay, well, he was left behind."

I saw how that man was persecuted. He said, "The only thing I want is to be taken with Christ! The only thing that I want is to be with the Lord because I do not want to be here and suffer in the great tribulation!" He kept running from place to place and asking himself, "Why was I left behind? Take me with You Lord! I don't want to be here and suffer!" The Lord said, "Servant, there is nothing I can do now, for a long time I talked with him and told him that I was going to come very soon, but he didn't believe me, well, now he is left behind."

I saw many other people running all over. So many people were running, desperate trying to find peace but they could not find it. They were shouting, "We want the Word of life! We are thirsty of the Word of God!" But it was already too late, because the Lord had taken the church with Him."

http://www.divinerevelations.info/Docum ... lation.htm

Coop

I'm sure they mean well, but attributing their own words to Jesus is still blasphemy.

SAY WHAT? Are you a little confused? Or am I not understanding you?...

...Isaiah hear the voice of the Lord, and He wrote for us what the Lord said. So - you tell me? What has she done differently that has been done down through the centuries?

Coop

You are misunderstanding me. This girl is not a prophet, and that is not a prophetic vision from God. The words she, or more likely those around her, attribute to Jesus aren't from God. It is merely a fictional eschatological fantasy in the manner of 'Left Behind'. Yes, there have been false prophets throughout the centuries. They usually tell people what they want to believe.

 

[lecoop]

Bahh, bahh, bahh, you sound like a sheep but smell of wolf. You spit out venom disguised as truth. You dare to deny the Word of God.
Jude said, "In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude:8,9. NIV
So tell me Coop, where in the entire Bible is this statement backed up by other scripture?
You're winging it!
You're hoping, but it's not in the Lord.
I'd really would like to know you will repent, I really do.

Andrew,

I have discovered that when a doctrine of a devil is challenged, the people pushing it always get angry.
Truth is not venom, but for those who have swallowed false doctrine, it hurts. Good.

I "dare to to deny the word of God?" Which word of God? What word of God have I denied?

Jude always writes:

10 But these men revile (scoff and sneer at) anything they do not happen to be acquainted with and do not understand...

It is CERTAIN you do not understand either the character of our God, the chronology of Revelation, or the timing of the rapture - as these three are related. You scoff and sneer at the truth, because you do not recognize it. One day you will wake up, and discover that Jesus has taken His church home, as the first event of the 6th seal, and you will be left behind, to face the beast, which is exactly where your faith is. Always remember, God ALWAYS honors faith. I believe He will give you exactly what you are believing for.

where in the entire Bible is this statement backed up by other scripture?

I have made many statements. Which one are you thinking of here?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I'm sure they mean well, but attributing their own words to Jesus is still blasphemy.

SAY WHAT? Are you a little confused? Or am I not understanding you?...

...Isaiah hear the voice of the Lord, and He wrote for us what the Lord said. So - you tell me? What has she done differently that has been done down through the centuries?

Coop

You are misunderstanding me. This girl is not a prophet, and that is not a prophetic vision from God. The words she, or more likely those around her, attribute to Jesus aren't from God. It is merely a fictional eschatological fantasy in the manner of 'Left Behind'. Yes, there have been false prophets throughout the centuries. They usually tell people what they want to believe.

First, I don't think anyone has said she was a prophet. Yes, I did compare her to Isaiah, but ONLY in the respect that she heard Jesus speak, and repeated what He said. Did you not read of Paul? He was not a prophet, but rather an apostle; yet he told and wrote of what Jesus said to Him, when he was knocked off the horse.

John was not a prophet, but a disciple of Jesus. Yet he had many visions and wrote of them. How do you know those words were not from God? How do you know she was not with Jesus at that time? Were you there? Are you an eye witness? Or perhaps, as I suspect, you just did not like her message, so you want to dis her. I have heard God speak too, not once, not twice, but several times. Since we are His children, this is not unusual. Did not Jesus say, "My sheep know my voice and they hear me?" Why is it you cannot believe this? Can you find scripture to prove what she has said was not scriptural? in truth, this is the ONLY WAY you can prove she is a "false prophet" as you said.

Many people wanted to KILL Paul for his visions. So this is not too different.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The topic of this thread the is calling of the 144,000 and concerns the calling of those which will be alive at Christ's advent at the end of the Great Tribulation. If you guys want to have another USELESS rapture debate, why don't you take it to another thread.

So sorry. I think that was forgotton.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

According to Joel and other OT prophets, the only Christians which will survive the GT and be alive at Christ's advent will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

This is the calling of the 144,000

 

[lecoop]

According to Joel and other OT prophets, the only Christians which will survive the GT and be alive at Christ's advent will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

This is the calling of the 144,000

You are quite mistaken. Perhaps you can quote such a scripture, so we can see?
How can you be so mistaken? The 144,000 are an EXACT number, 12,000 from each HEBREW tribe.
This has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the church of Jesus Christ.
How many times must you read this, before you understand what Paul is saying?
The "day of the Lord," comes SUDDENLY, like a thief in the night. The "sudden destruction" comes on "them" suddenly, but not on US, for "We have no appointment with wrath."

Paul is telling us plainly that in HIS MIND, the rapture of the church will come suddenly, like a thief in the night, to BEGIN the events of the Day of the Lord. WE are gone and THEY experience the sudden destruction. That is speaking of the world wide earthquake at the 6th seal, BEFORE the 70th week begins. Therefore, MOST of the Christians alive today will be in heaven during the GT.

Coop