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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Calling of the 144,000
- Thread starter guysmith
- Start date
interpreter
Member
The 144,000 are clearly Jews (see Rev. 7:1-8). They only have the name of the Father on their forehead, and not also the name of Jesus as some faulty Bibles say (see 14:1). They are the 144,000 single male Jews of fighting age who survived the great tribulation of WW II and made it to the Holy land in 1948 and were available to the new Israeli miltary. 100,000 joined the military, but 44,000 were Orthodox Jews (i.e., conscientious objectors). They will learn to follow Jesus wherever he leads and learn a new song only they can learn.
WW II lasted exactly 3 1/2 years from the bombing of Pearl Harbor until the death of the antichrist, that is, Hitler. Israel became a nation exactly 3 1/2 years later. Hitler's Third reich (or Third Reign of Rome) is the third six of the 666 trilogy (with the Rome of John's day being the first head # 6, the Second Reich being the 2nd six, and Hitler being the third six).
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WW II lasted exactly 3 1/2 years from the bombing of Pearl Harbor until the death of the antichrist, that is, Hitler. Israel became a nation exactly 3 1/2 years later. Hitler's Third reich (or Third Reign of Rome) is the third six of the 666 trilogy (with the Rome of John's day being the first head # 6, the Second Reich being the 2nd six, and Hitler being the third six).
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Here is a novel idea. Is it possible that there might be literally 144,000 (literally) "redeemed" from the earth, found standing with Christ at His advent on (literally) Mount Zion in (literally) Jerusalem?
Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Simply stated, the book of Daniel and all Bible prophecy concerns a "people" (Israel) and a "place" (the holy city of Jerusalem).
Daniel 9: 24 "SEVENTY 'SEVENS' ARE DECREED FOR YOUR PEOPLE AND YOUR HOLY CITY to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
That said, notice how the following two scriptures also concern Israel (the people) and the holy city of Jerusalem / Mount Zion (the place).
Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Zechariah 14: 1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you. 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Now notice that Revelation 12 concerns Israel (the woman and the man-child) and "a place" where the woman is PROTECTED FOR THE 1260 DAYS of the GT.
Revelation 12: 1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Based on the previous passages and no other information, my first guess would be that that "place" where Israel is going to be proteced will be Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
This is the calling of the 144,000.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Daniel 9: 24 "SEVENTY 'SEVENS' ARE DECREED FOR YOUR PEOPLE AND YOUR HOLY CITY to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
That said, notice how the following two scriptures also concern Israel (the people) and the holy city of Jerusalem / Mount Zion (the place).
Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
Zechariah 14: 1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you. 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Now notice that Revelation 12 concerns Israel (the woman and the man-child) and "a place" where the woman is PROTECTED FOR THE 1260 DAYS of the GT.
Revelation 12: 1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Based on the previous passages and no other information, my first guess would be that that "place" where Israel is going to be proteced will be Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
This is the calling of the 144,000.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
NJBeliever
Member
guysmith said:
Hi Guy,
Christ's Millenial Rule will indeed be on Earth. The actual planet. But what we see in Rev 14 is taking place in Heaven. The 144,000 are called "redeemed among men" and "without fault before God." how can this be if they are just normal guys who have never had relations? I think if you look at how the Bible describes them, they are glorified men. Meaning they have already died and been resurrected to incorruptible bodies. That would make them the "firstfruits" to God and Jesus. We already know Jesus is the firstfruits. His resurrection, which was on the day of The Feast of Firstfruits, was the first every resurrection to a glorified body. But these men are called firstfruits to Jesus. So how could that be if they are just regular guys? They are not the first saints to die. They are not the first people to see Jesus. So who are they and why are they "redeemed" and "without fault"? I believe it's because they are the first people after Christ to be glorified. And they are then given a special mission to witness the Gospel of the Kingdom on Earth. God bless.
Matthew 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Isaiah 31: 4For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
5As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.
This is the calling of the 144,000.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Isaiah 31: 4For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
5As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.
This is the calling of the 144,000.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
If we're careful to not read men's doctrines into the Scripture, what is that saying like you read it for the first time?
Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.(KJV)
Who are sealed with God's seal there? The "servants of our God". What does the angel with God's seal say to the other four angels? To not hurt the earth or sea nor trees until God's servants are sealed in their foreheads (mind).
Per Rev.9, what's God sealing about? Per Ezekiel 9, what's God's sealing about? It is the marking of God's people to show they belong to Him in Ezek.9. In Rev.9, it's purpose is against deception the fire, smoke and brimstone that comes out of the mouth of the locust army, i.e., a seal against deception.
That shows the 144,000 definitely represent Christ's elect. That's why they are seen later with Christ on Mount Zion per Rev.14. But note again the first 3 verse of Rev.7 about their sealing BEFORE the four winds were released upon the earth. That release represents the end of the tribulation when Christ comes. That means all those 144,000 are alive on earth for that sealing, and are sealed prior to Christ's coming. Will they all die in the tribulation? Possibly, but I don't think so. I think the start of Rev.14 is a forward time look into the Milennium.
Then at Rev.7:9 the Gentile believers are mentioned, and too many to be numbered. We're told they came out of great tribulation, and stood before the throne of The Lamb. That also is a forward look after Christ's coming. That infers they also... were sealed with God's seal, having come out of great tribulation and made their robes white in Christ. Rev.7 is actually about the 'whole' Body of Christ.
Moreover, only the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi make up Jewish believers. The rest of those tribes were among the ten tribes of Israel that were lost long ago. I firmly believe they were scattered to the West among the Gentiles, and many of them lost their heritage as Israel, and think they are Gentiles.
Rev 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.(KJV)
Who are sealed with God's seal there? The "servants of our God". What does the angel with God's seal say to the other four angels? To not hurt the earth or sea nor trees until God's servants are sealed in their foreheads (mind).
Per Rev.9, what's God sealing about? Per Ezekiel 9, what's God's sealing about? It is the marking of God's people to show they belong to Him in Ezek.9. In Rev.9, it's purpose is against deception the fire, smoke and brimstone that comes out of the mouth of the locust army, i.e., a seal against deception.
That shows the 144,000 definitely represent Christ's elect. That's why they are seen later with Christ on Mount Zion per Rev.14. But note again the first 3 verse of Rev.7 about their sealing BEFORE the four winds were released upon the earth. That release represents the end of the tribulation when Christ comes. That means all those 144,000 are alive on earth for that sealing, and are sealed prior to Christ's coming. Will they all die in the tribulation? Possibly, but I don't think so. I think the start of Rev.14 is a forward time look into the Milennium.
Then at Rev.7:9 the Gentile believers are mentioned, and too many to be numbered. We're told they came out of great tribulation, and stood before the throne of The Lamb. That also is a forward look after Christ's coming. That infers they also... were sealed with God's seal, having come out of great tribulation and made their robes white in Christ. Rev.7 is actually about the 'whole' Body of Christ.
Moreover, only the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi make up Jewish believers. The rest of those tribes were among the ten tribes of Israel that were lost long ago. I firmly believe they were scattered to the West among the Gentiles, and many of them lost their heritage as Israel, and think they are Gentiles.
Matthew 24:15
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Whoso readeth, let him understand what?
Luke 21:36
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The next big question: is God (with the GT looming before us) providing endtime Christians with escape instructions/details?
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Whoso readeth, let him understand what?
Luke 21:36
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The next big question: is God (with the GT looming before us) providing endtime Christians with escape instructions/details?
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Paul showed when the deceived begin saying, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them and they shall not escape; those who "sleep in the night" and are "drunken in the night."
1Thes 5:2-9
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(KJV)
Why would Apostle Paul show we need to put on a "breastplate" and a "helmet" for that, if it meant we are to be raptured out prior? He's linking that breastplate and helmet idea to what he said in Ephesians 6 of putting on the whole armour of God, in order to do what?
Eph 6:13-17
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
(KJV)
Does that sound like Paul was preaching to escape the "evil day"? No, but instead to be prepared to make a "stand" for Christ in order to make it through it.
1Thes 5:2-9
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(KJV)
Why would Apostle Paul show we need to put on a "breastplate" and a "helmet" for that, if it meant we are to be raptured out prior? He's linking that breastplate and helmet idea to what he said in Ephesians 6 of putting on the whole armour of God, in order to do what?
Eph 6:13-17
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
(KJV)
Does that sound like Paul was preaching to escape the "evil day"? No, but instead to be prepared to make a "stand" for Christ in order to make it through it.
:amen to that veteran!veteran said:
Put on the armor and be prepared to BE HERE, to take your stand (in Christ, the gospel). It is not an offensive posture to make war with, but rather a defensive posture so you can do this; "This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints."
"...but for the sake of the ELECT those days will be shortened." Why do the days get shortened for us if we aren't here for it? (Please don't tell me the elect are the 144K, I'm so sick of that cop out).
I don't prefer to be martyred, that's masochistic. I accept that dying may be the result, but I prefer to try to make it all the way to the end.guysmith said:
The greatest testimony will be those who can say what it was like to be standing here on this planet as it is and actually watched the heavens roll back like a scroll and there He is. WOW, can you imagine!
Hello Andrew,
You stated: I don't prefer to be martyred, that's masochistic. I accept that dying may be the result, but I prefer to try to make it all the way to the end.
My response: I agree. So what are your plans, should we be alive with the start of the GT?
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
You stated: I don't prefer to be martyred, that's masochistic. I accept that dying may be the result, but I prefer to try to make it all the way to the end.
My response: I agree. So what are your plans, should we be alive with the start of the GT?
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Obviously non of us know when "our number comes up", so being alive at the start depends on whether you are still alive when it begins, but yes, I do believe we will be alive during the GT and that most of us will die during it because we maintain the testimony of Jesus.guysmith said:
Secular humanism does not want to be held accountable, so the God of the Bible gets rejected to avoid judgment (or so they think). You can find plenty of people who vehemently reject that Jesus is the (one and only) Way to the Father.
God reveals His plans to His servants the prophets, do you think the two witnesses might have a clue about their ministry before it begins? I do. In fact I think they will understand exactly how it all happens and that Christians will identify them by their fruit, (though they may not like how it all pans outs during the GT) and accept what they already accept: God's will, good or bad, is still God's will.
Jesus' humanity came out full force when He requested that the cup pass from Him, but He said what I believe we all accept, not my will Father, but your will be done.
Should this "scare us"? Yes, to a degree, but trusting God to keep His Word and understanding that when you separate the chaff from the grain, both begin on the threshing floor and both get thrown into the air. The grain gets gathered in and the chaff gets burned.
Grain is seed; Paul said we are like seeds, that what you plant in the ground dies and what comes out is far more majestic. We all know we face death and that we die, our faith tells us to trust in the far more majestic part we all eagerly await.
Personally, this seed longs to sprout.
Hello Andrew,
You stated: Obviously non of us know when "our number comes up", so being alive at the start depends on whether you are still alive when it begins, but yes, I do believe we will be alive during the GT and that most of us will die during it because we maintain the testimony of Jesus.
My response: Agreed.
You stated: God reveals His plans to His servants the prophets
My response: Agreed. Heres a few:
Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.
Isaiah 31: 4 This is what the LORD says to me:
"As a lion growls,
a great lion over his prey—
and though a whole band of shepherds
is called together against him,
he is not frightened by their shouts
or disturbed by their clamor—
so the LORD Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.
5 Like birds hovering overhead,
the LORD Almighty will shield Jerusalem;
he will shield it and deliver it,
he will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."
Isaiah 4: 2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem.
What do these verses mean to you?
You stated: The greatest testimony will be those who can say what it was like to be STANDING here on this planet as it is and actually watched the heavens roll back like a scroll and there He is.
My response: Agreed.
Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, STANDING on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
You stated: Obviously non of us know when "our number comes up", so being alive at the start depends on whether you are still alive when it begins, but yes, I do believe we will be alive during the GT and that most of us will die during it because we maintain the testimony of Jesus.
My response: Agreed.
You stated: God reveals His plans to His servants the prophets
My response: Agreed. Heres a few:
Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.
Isaiah 31: 4 This is what the LORD says to me:
"As a lion growls,
a great lion over his prey—
and though a whole band of shepherds
is called together against him,
he is not frightened by their shouts
or disturbed by their clamor—
so the LORD Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.
5 Like birds hovering overhead,
the LORD Almighty will shield Jerusalem;
he will shield it and deliver it,
he will 'pass over' it and will rescue it."
Isaiah 4: 2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel. 3 Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy, all who are recorded among the living in Jerusalem.
What do these verses mean to you?
You stated: The greatest testimony will be those who can say what it was like to be STANDING here on this planet as it is and actually watched the heavens roll back like a scroll and there He is.
My response: Agreed.
Revelation 14: 1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, STANDING on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
guysmith said:
I think our Lord Jesus covered the idea pretty well like Paul did, IF we truly listen...
Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)
Those who think to escape the tribulation are seeking to save their life. This is why the pre-trib doctrines of men wrongly confuse even the "great tribualtion" with the time of God's wrath, which God's wrath actually is what ends the tribulation by a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked. That gathering of where the eagles will be gathered is in the negative sense. See Matt.24:28 where "body" is rendered "carcase", a pointer to the spiritually dead being gathered by false ones. That also links to those of Rev.9 that the locusts are not allowed to kill, because they have not God's sealing.
Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
(KJV)
Does that sound like our Lord Jesus said we should exprect to escape the tribulation? God's wrath which comes later to end the tribulation yes, but not the tribulation which occurs first.
It will be better to have made a stand for Christ during the tribulation, even to the death, than to be found spiritually naked when He comes because of bowing to worship another in His place, simply because one feared for their life. I do not believe all who will make that stand for Christ will be martyred anyway. Howbeit, we are not to fear death for making that stand as per our Lord's own words.
Hello Guy,guysmith said:
You asked what those verses mean to me:
Zechariah 3:8,9 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. See the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the Lord Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.
" 'In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,' declares the Lord Almighty."
Isaiah 4:4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.
I'm afraid I can't say much more than that which has already been said. Further explanation is what everyone wants and God knows this, but He has secrets that must remain secret for the sake of the elect. Satan is out to change the set times and laws and thereby try to make God out to be a liar, he will fail because he does not know these secrets. Curiosity is perfectly understandable, but I would say that we must trust God, He knows what He's doing, He knows we want to understand but He also knows that our salvation is far more important to Him than our understanding BEFORE it all comes to pass.
You might say He has an Ace up His sleeve, a trump card that will throw everyone for a loop.
We are like little children when it comes to our curiosity; so when I say I'm not permitted to talk about the details it creates questions, my answer remains you'll have to wait and see. Sorry.
Just trust that Jesus Christ is Lord and do what the Word says, "Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved." I do not believe that God will allow any harm to come upon those whom He loves, but that doesn't mean witnessing the tribulation will be easy for any believer, "this calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints".
The Great Tribulation is actually God's last act of mercy to get people to repent, which is why great signs and wonders accompany it. I think the church needs to prepare for a great influx of new believers as this all comes to pass (more than 2 billion) 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
When the GT begins, all who do not accept the "mark of the beast," will systematically hearded into concentration camps and executed. This is the fate of all Christians who do not heed the warning of the prophets which state that the only "survivors" will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
You have stated that you would like to be alive at Christ's advent, to "stand on this planet" and see His coming. I want to believe you.
Your options are as follows:
1. When the GT begins, all who do not accept the "mark of the beast," will systematically hearded into concentration camps and executed.
2. Heed the warning of the prophets which state that the only "survivors" will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
When the GT begins, all who do not accept the "mark of the beast," will systematically hearded into concentration camps and executed. This is the fate of all Christians who do not heed the warning of the prophets which state that the only "survivors" will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
You have stated that you would like to be alive at Christ's advent, to "stand on this planet" and see His coming. I want to believe you.
Your options are as follows:
1. When the GT begins, all who do not accept the "mark of the beast," will systematically hearded into concentration camps and executed.
2. Heed the warning of the prophets which state that the only "survivors" will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
It is for the "elects" sake that Christ returns at that appointed time. The "elect" are the survivors of the GT.
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
In Zechariah's description of Christ's advent we see that Christ goes into battle against the nations of the world.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Isaiah clarifies that Christ comes to "defend" Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. 5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.
Joel states that the survivors of the GT will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls
This is the calling of "elect."
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
In Zechariah's description of Christ's advent we see that Christ goes into battle against the nations of the world.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Isaiah clarifies that Christ comes to "defend" Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. 5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.
Joel states that the survivors of the GT will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls
This is the calling of "elect."
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith