The catholics have divinized Mary

[Free]

This is a friendly reminder to address the arguments being made and not making personal attacks.

Thanks.

 

[Gary]

Re: More misinformation by the RC...

I will continue to address the RCs arguments....

More misinformation. That is of little help.

Let us consider what the confessions of faith REALLY say... and not rely on some misinformed RC version of what you think our confessions of faith are.

Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?

A. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God,(1) and fully to enjoy him forever.(2)

(WESTMINSTER LARGER CATECHISM - WITH PROOF TEXTS
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w ... index.html )

This "confession" of faith is one invented by Protestants in the 1500's. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christianity was around 1400 years before that. This confession, one that no one is held accountable to, means little even to Protestants, so why should I take it into consideration?

Wrong again. Presbyterians (as an example) know the significance of the Westminster Confession... as do knowledgable Anglicans!

You claimed:

If I may, perhaps I can be of help. First of all, the guiding principle of Christianity is NOT "being saved". It is sharing in the Divine Nature. THAT is what Chrisitainity is really about. This change of focus as a result of the Reformation towards soteriological questions moves us from the Gospel - that we are to become another Christ, that we are to share in the Divine traits by grace.

I have shown you that you are wrong.

Now you claim the confession means little to Protestants. Again that is wrong. That is clear misrepresentation. Go to Presbyterian sites and see what Confession of Faith they use. Go and READ what JI Packer (one of today's leading theologians) has to say about the Westminster Confession of faith.

I will quote it for you and then you can follow the links to read more and to learn:

http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

As JI Packer says in his acclaimed book, "Concise Theology - A guide to historic Christian beliefs":

My frequent quoting of the Westminster Confession may raise some eyebrows, since I am an Anglican and not a Presbyterian. But since the Confession was intended to amplify the Thirty-none Articles, and most of its framers were Anglican clergy, and since it is something of a masterpiece, “the ripest fruit of Reformation creed-making†as B.B. Warfield called it, I think I am entitled to value it as part of my Reformed Anglican heritage, and to use it as a major resource.

Enjoy! http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

 

[francisdesales]

Re: More misinformation by the RC...

I will continue to address the RCs arguments....

If you would have stuck with that, I'd have appreciated it. But you still haven't.

Why are you changing the topic? My comment was that the guiding principle of Christianity is the divinization of man, not salvation. Now, you are giving me a lecture about the Westminister Catechism? My question, which you continue to ignore, is how DOES the Westminister Catechism PROVE that the guiding principle of Christianity is NOT the divinization of man, but rather, "being saved"? Your quote doesn't back up your argument. And this tactic doesn't make your point, either.

Just show me where the Westminister Catechism tells us that "being saved" is THE critical issue of Christianity. The rest of your posts lately have been merely avoiding the issue and divert the attention away from another of your mistakes.

First, your lies about the Church regarding Mary and Consecration to her, then your inability to show me where "being saved" is critical to the Westminister Catechism, now this? I shudder to know how much further your "vertical relationship" with Christ will continue to take you...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Again, What? No need for faith. Then why does the Bible teach faith? Read Hebrews 11 once. That was a riduclous statement.

Not so. There will be no need for faith in heaven because we will SEE God. As you say, read the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1. Evidence UNSEEN. Thus, there is no need for faith, nor hope, since hope will be realized in heaven, as well. There will only be love.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Oh, Yes, glory be to God in heaven there will be no need for faith or hope. While on earth, the Bible says that faith worketh by love. Therefore, our faith will not work without love.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Gary]

Re: More misinformation by the RC...

francisdesales: My comment was that the guiding principle of Christianity is the divinization of man, not salvation.

Gary: .. and I showed you that "man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever" That I showed you from Question 1. What is the chief and highest end of man? Answer 1. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever. - source is the Westminster Catechism

francisdesales: ..the Now, you are giving me a lecture about the Westminister(sic) Catechism?

Gary: I am teaching you about the Westminster Confession because you have misrepresented Reformed Theology twice. You were wrong twice (which I showed) about Reformed Theology.

francisdesales: My question, which you continue to ignore, is how DOES the Westminister(sic) Catechism PROVE that the guiding principle of Christianity is NOT the divinization of man, but rather, "being saved"?

Gary: I have never claimed that. Again, you bark up the wrong tree.

francisdesales: Just show me where the Westminister(sic) Catechism tells us that "being saved" is THE critical issue of Christianity.

Gary: I have never claimed that. Yet again, you bark up the wrong tree.

francisdesales: First, your lies about the Church regarding Mary and Consecration to her...

Gary: Jesus is my Lord. Mary is the RC lord... the consecration to her proves the point.

francisdesales: ... then your inability to show me where "being saved" is critical to the Westminister(sic) Catechism.....

Gary: I have never claimed that. Again, another false accusation. Read back through the posts.

:D :D :D

 

[LittleNipper]

Let's post the whole catechism paragraph for context shall we Gary. I know you like to take snippets and forget about the context.

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

She prays for us dude. Do you get it. Never says she does any more than that with our petitions. It's like asking your pastor to pray for you. My kids trust that I will bring food home for them. This does not mean they don't trust in God to provide it.

By the way don't take "thy will be done" out of context as you would. It is God's will that it refers to. Though most certainly Mary's will and the will of all in heaven would be in allignment with God's will.

Blessings

Mary is not my mother. I'm likely not related to her unless we go back to Noah. Where does it say in the Bible that people who have died and gone to heaven pray? It isn't at all like asking a living person to pray for me. I simply ask them. There is no Biblical evidence that people who have passed on are allowed to share in what is happening on earth after their death. I see nothing Biblical with regard to anything you referenced above. It reeks of Vestal Virgin paganism. GOD uses pray to encourage and increase the faith of the believer. Those in heave do not need their faith strengthened.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Oh, Yes, glory be to God in heaven there will be no need for faith or hope. While on earth, the Bible says that faith worketh by love. Therefore, our faith will not work without love.



May God bless, golfjack

Agree.

Have a good weekend.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: More misinformation by the RC...

francisdesales: My comment was that the guiding principle of Christianity is the divinization of man, not salvation.

Gary: .. and I showed you that "man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever" That I showed you from Question 1. What is the chief and highest end of man? Answer 1. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God, and fully to enjoy him forever. - source is the Westminster Catechism

francisdesales: ..the Now, you are giving me a lecture about the Westminister(sic) Catechism?

Gary: I am teaching you about the Westminster Confession because you have misrepresented Reformed Theology twice. You were wrong twice (which I showed) about Reformed Theology.

francisdesales: My question, which you continue to ignore, is how DOES the Westminister(sic) Catechism PROVE that the guiding principle of Christianity is NOT the divinization of man, but rather, "being saved"?

Gary: I have never claimed that. Again, you bark up the wrong tree.

francisdesales: Just show me where the Westminister(sic) Catechism tells us that "being saved" is THE critical issue of Christianity.

Gary: I have never claimed that. Yet again, you bark up the wrong tree.

francisdesales: First, your lies about the Church regarding Mary and Consecration to her...

Gary: Jesus is my Lord. Mary is the RC lord... the consecration to her proves the point.

francisdesales: ... then your inability to show me where "being saved" is critical to the Westminister(sic) Catechism.....

Gary: I have never claimed that. Again, another false accusation. Read back through the posts.

:D :D :D

Sigh...

Have a nice weekend, Gary...

 

[thessalonian]

Mary is not my mother. I'm likely not related to her unless we go back to Noah.

More naysaying without scripture. I will quote some for you. John 19 it says "26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. "

Now the disciple whom Jesus loved is never named. It is assumed that he is John but why doesn't John say "When Jesus saw his mother, and me....". There is much more to this verse than meets the eye for the passage is not just about John but about each one of us. We are all her children. Rev 12 talks about the woman clothed with the sun and the moon and the stars about her feet. This quite obviously is not God so evidently there is a woman of some sort either figuratively or literally with a crown etc. We see this passage in multiple ways. In one sense it is Israel, in another the Church, but finally Mary. And at the end of the chapter it says "and the devil went off to make war on THE WOMAN AND HER CHILDREN". Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother as through her son she gives birth to our souls.

I'm likely not related to her unless we go back to Noah.

Let's see, Jesus is your brother but you have no relation to Mary? That would seem a bit odd.

Where does it say in the Bible that people who have died and gone to heaven pray? It isn't at all like asking a living person to pray for me. I simply ask them.

Where does it say in the bible that there are alter calls without baptism? Where does it say that everyting is explicitly in the Bible? At the end of John's Gospel it in fact says that not everything Jesus said and did was recorded. John also says in his letters that there are other things that are to be spoken but that he would speak them directly. The Bible is not the sole rule of faith. Sorry.

There is no Biblical evidence that people who have passed on are allowed to share in what is happening on earth after their death. I see nothing Biblical with regard to anything you referenced above.

Heb 12:1 says we are surrounded by a CLOUD OF WITNESSES so it does seem that they do know what is going on in some fashion. We are also told that there is great rejoicing over one repentant sinner in heaven. Now how could they know if anyone repents if they don't know what is going on. We see in Rev 5 incense which represents prayer added to the prayers of the saints on earth. Don't tell me there is no evidence of any unity between those in heaven and on earth. They are in Christ as we are. See Roman 12 and 1 Cor 12. Much more I could say.

[/quote]It reeks of Vestal Virgin paganism. GOD uses pray to encourage and increase the faith of the believer. Those in heave do not need their faith strengthened.[/quote]

Nope they don't. We do and they can pray to have our faith stengthened. Your words reek of lack of understanding. I have explained what the rosary is many times on this board. It is about the life, death, and resurrection of Christ primarily. Not about Mary. It is about growth in faith. Mary is the creation. We are all fully aware of that but she promotes her son.

Blessings

 

[golfjack]

reply

Here are some examples of Baptism in the Bible.

1. Believers at Pentecost, Acts 2:41
2. Converts in Samaria, Acts 8:12
3. The Ethopinian Eunich, Acts 8:38
4. Saul of Tarsus, Acts 9:18
5. Lydia of Thyatira, Acts 16:15
6. Philippian jailor and household, Acts 18:8
7. Ephesians Disciples, Acts 19:5

After studying Baptism's of the Bible, I am convinced that Water Baptism has nothing to do with saving anyone.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[LittleNipper]

Mary is not my mother. I'm likely not related to her unless we go back to Noah.

More naysaying without scripture. I will quote some for you. John 19 it says "26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. "

Now the disciple whom Jesus loved is never named. It is assumed that he is John but why doesn't John say "When Jesus saw his mother, and me....". There is much more to this verse than meets the eye for the passage is not just about John but about each one of us. We are all her children. Rev 12 talks about the woman clothed with the sun and the moon and the stars about her feet. This quite obviously is not God so evidently there is a woman of some sort either figuratively or literally with a crown etc. We see this passage in multiple ways. In one sense it is Israel, in another the Church, but finally Mary. And at the end of the chapter it says "and the devil went off to make war on THE WOMAN AND HER CHILDREN". Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother as through her son she gives birth to our souls.


[quote:01a65]I'm likely not related to her unless we go back to Noah.

Let's see, Jesus is your brother but you have no relation to Mary? That would seem a bit odd.

Where does it say in the Bible that people who have died and gone to heaven pray? It isn't at all like asking a living person to pray for me. I simply ask them.

Where does it say in the bible that there are alter calls without baptism? Where does it say that everyting is explicitly in the Bible? At the end of John's Gospel it in fact says that not everything Jesus said and did was recorded. John also says in his letters that there are other things that are to be spoken but that he would speak them directly. The Bible is not the sole rule of faith. Sorry.

There is no Biblical evidence that people who have passed on are allowed to share in what is happening on earth after their death. I see nothing Biblical with regard to anything you referenced above.

Heb 12:1 says we are surrounded by a CLOUD OF WITNESSES so it does seem that they do know what is going on in some fashion. We are also told that there is great rejoicing over one repentant sinner in heaven. Now how could they know if anyone repents if they don't know what is going on. We see in Rev 5 incense which represents prayer added to the prayers of the saints on earth. Don't tell me there is no evidence of any unity between those in heaven and on earth. They are in Christ as we are. See Roman 12 and 1 Cor 12. Much more I could say.

[/quote:01a65]It reeks of Vestal Virgin paganism. GOD uses prayer to encourage and increase the faith of the believer. Those in heaven do not need their faith strengthened.[/quote]

Nope they don't. We do and they can pray to have our faith stengthened. Your words reek of lack of understanding. I have explained what the rosary is many times on this board. It is about the life, death, and resurrection of Christ primarily. Not about Mary. It is about growth in faith. Mary is the creation. We are all fully aware of that but she promotes her son.

Blessings[/quote]

The woman in Revelations is the nation of ISRAEL who will be attacked by the Anti-Christ in the time of Jacob's Troubles. The rational reason Jesus placed his mother in the care of John is because he was there and didn't run away and hide. As for the rest, Mary makes a great example for women, She has her place in HIS story. She is however one of many who served GOD and did HIS will. I cannot, nor should I exult her above any of the others. I believe this dishonors Mary's role. The Bible is not about HER.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

After studying Baptism's of the Bible, I am convinced that Water Baptism has nothing to do with saving anyone.

You are incorrect.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:20-21

These are just a couple that come to mind. God saves man ordinarily through water Baptism.

Regards

 

[Vic C.]

Rev 12 talks about the woman clothed with the sun and the moon and the stars about her feet. This quite obviously is not God so evidently there is a woman of some sort either figuratively or literally with a crown etc. We see this passage in multiple ways. In one sense it is Israel, in another the Church, but finally Mary.

.........This is from the footnotes of New American Bible Copyright © 1991

2 [1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

I reject the pregnant goddess portion of theis footnote and you should too, if you are to dispel the fact that many think the Catholics view Mary as their "goddess". IMO, of course. I also don't like that thay refer to the ecclesia as the "New Israel". Sounds too much like replacement theory to me.

And at the end of the chapter it says "and the devil went off to make war on THE WOMAN AND HER CHILDREN". Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother as through her son she gives birth to our souls.

May I ask what translation that came from? My translations, along with the NAB, do not say that.

17-Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

.........NAB

It would be interesting to see if someone could make a case with scripture proving Mary gives birth to our souls.

 

[Imagican]

Vic,

No it wouldn't because it CAN'T be proven, for this is NOT what we have been given in understanding. Mary being the mother of ANYTHING other than Jesus has NEVER been expressed through the Word, (or revelation as far as I am concerned). She was NOT a perpetual virgin, nor was she sinless. These are pagan ideas that date back pre-Moses even. In order for the CC to 'worship' Mary, they had to 'alter' the understanding that has been offered and 'force feed' these ideas for thousands of years to bring others into this concept.

We have the Word and we have the apostles revelation, in these there is no Goddess Mary.

MEC

 

[Atonement]

I had to hand out two warnings today because of this thread alone. WE MUST respect the denomination of others, even though we might not all agree at times, it gives us no right to insult someone's religion. This thread has gotten out of hand if you ask me, and -spiritual insults- being thrown around every where on here.

I'm not Catholic nor do I pratice/accept what traditions they have, however you will never catch me on here insulting someone's religion. We are not to judge man but God and God alone. Please, I do not want to hand any more warnings over this issue. If you can not come to a mutual understanding, then take it on yourself, be the better man and humble yourself not to post a reply.

 

[thessalonian]

I cannot, nor should I exult her above any of the others. I believe this dishonors Mary's role. The Bible is not about HER.

We are simply not on the same level with regard to the hieghts God brings us to. In Titus he says "those who rule well deserve a greater share of the prize" and no this is not about cival rulers. We are tod in Luke 1 "Blessed are you AMONG WOMEN and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus". The phrase clearly means she was more blessed. That is quite provable from scripture. Children are said to be a blessing. Ps 127. Now how could anyone be more blessed than to recieve the infinite blessing of the son of God. How could being in his physical and spiritual prescence daily not be more blessed and more exalted than any other woman on earth. This is not to deny the blessings of other children for they are all as the scriptures say. But let's be honest here. Mary also says "all generations shall call me blessed". That is not the arrogant speach of a Jewess. That is the Holy Spirit speaking through her. You would do well to listen.

No the scriptures are not about Mary. In threads like this it seems that way but if you look at my posts on this board I do speak way more about Jesus as do the other Catholics on the board. You mispeak when you make such accusations.

One more thing. I note you did not address those in heaven hearing us. Now in Luke Jesus says to the Apostles:

Luke.22
[30] that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

How are they to judge if they do not know what is going on as you have said?

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Rev 12 talks about the woman clothed with the sun and the moon and the stars about her feet. This quite obviously is not God so evidently there is a woman of some sort either figuratively or literally with a crown etc. We see this passage in multiple ways. In one sense it is Israel, in another the Church, but finally Mary.

.........This is from the footnotes of New American Bible Copyright © 1991

2 [1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

It does not say that in my NAB. There likely is such a myth. It does say corresponds to but not comes from. There are stories such as the story of Gilgamesh that have similarities to Bible stories. I think it most likely that these stories were passed on in Judaism and Christianity and later written down. That may be the case here. I don't know. Haven't studied the matter in this case.

I reject the pregnant goddess portion of theis footnote and you should too, if you are to dispel the fact that many think the Catholics view Mary as their "goddess". IMO, of course. I also don't like that thay refer to the ecclesia as the "New Israel". Sounds too much like replacement theory to me.

Catholic thought is not replacement theology. The thinking is that we were grafted on to Israel as Romans 11 states. I see your problem with the "New Israel" phrase, though Jesus did come to renew and so I am not completely against it.

[quote:8b494]And at the end of the chapter it says "and the devil went off to make war on THE WOMAN AND HER CHILDREN". Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother as through her son she gives birth to our souls.

May I ask what translation that came from? My translations, along with the NAB, do not say that[/quote:8b494].

I was quoting from memory. Sorry.


[17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

At any rate it is clear they are the womans offspring. We view the woman in one sense as Mary.

It would be interesting to see if someone could make a case with scripture proving Mary gives birth to our souls.

Yes. We see Mary as a type of the Church. The Church gives birth to our souls and Mary as a type should as well. I will try get time to look in to it further. The OT women come to mind, eve, Sarah, rebeka etc. who are said to be the mothers of all mankind. These are forshadowings of Mary as well.

 

[Vic C.]

Thess, I got my NAB quotes from here:

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

I do have a NAB at home, somewhere on the bookshelf. I will see what the difference is.

 

[thessalonian]

Ok.

As I have said the existence of a myth can mean one of at least two or three things. By accident some pagans happened to come up with a story like what is revealed in revelation. God's spirit perhaps reveals some things to others outside of Christianity and Judaism, such as the wise men, or John's story proceeded him in tradition or he addapted a story that in fact fit with what was revealed to him. I have no real problem with any of these posisilities.

One mistake I think people make with scripture is that myth means false. It does not have to. Truth and events can be presented in mythical ways that bring to light truth. It does not mean none of the events happened. Simply that they are told in a way that brings out more than just recalling the events would. So I am not against there being myth in the scirptures.
It is a literary device. Most definitely some abuse it.

Blessings