The catholics have divinized Mary

[LittleNipper]

Re: reply

Were you really this ignornant as a Catholic? We do confess to God when we confess to the priest. Christ acts through the priest to forgive our sins. If you don't like John 20:21-23 why don't you just rip it out of your bible or cross it out.

John 20
[20] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

See my posts on the New Testament Math above. You clearly don't get it.


God bless

You clearly do not get it.... Who was JESUS addressing. HE was speaking to HIS personally chosen APOSTLES some nearly 2000 years ago. For some reason the Roman Catholic church feels that this applies to their clergy to this day. The reality is that this was a special gift that JESUS gave to selected men for that time. It was the norm while JESUS was alive and this gift died at some point during the lives of the Apostles, or they might have used such abilities to preventing being killed by the Romans, etc.... How many priests do you know who have caught a parishioner in a lie and were able to cause them to drop dead in a word. I know of none-----today.... So, you seem the one to be confused. I see it for what it represents. A special gift, for selected men, for the soul purpose of ESTABLISHING the CHURCH of CHRIST by providing credibility of authority thru miracles. Once the CHURCH got on it's feet, the Apostles died one by one....... And Rome tried to usurp authority after a few hundred years by applying such verses to its own ends.....

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

What I am really concerned about with Catholic Thelogy is how in the world does a Catholic get saved. You guys never really preach salvation.

If I may, perhaps I can be of help. First of all, the guiding principle of Christianity is NOT "being saved". It is sharing in the Divine Nature. THAT is what Chrisitainity is really about. This change of focus as a result of the Reformation towards soteriological questions moves us from the Gospel - that we are to become another Christ, that we are to share in the Divine traits by grace. Thus, I can by merciful because of Christ. I can be just because of Christ. Even now, I begin to share in this divine nature through grace. This is called "theosis" in the Orthodox Church, and remains the guiding principle of this Apostolic Church, which was untouched by the Reformation. Those Catholics who are aware of their faith are also aware of this overriding focus.

To me, all you preach is condemnation. Let me give you an example. On Tv. A question was asked about Abortion, and if this sin could be forgiven by a priest. The answer was, that the priest, but she had to go to a Bishop. Give me a break. I confess my sins to God and no man. In other words, man cannot forgive me.

If you are getting that idea, than either someone is incorrectly teaching the faith, or you are getting the wrong idea. The commandments, for example, are not meant to take away our freedom, but to GIVE us freedom! By knowing God's Law, His Will for mankind, we can truly attain fulfillment, to become more like Christ, the First Man of the New Creation. I hadn't heard about requiring to go to a Bishop for pardon, that sounds incorrect... As to man not being able to forgive, this goes back to man being divinized, the teaching of the Christian Church from the beginning. We are created to share in the divine nature of God.

In the NT, there are a number of passages that talk about man forgiving sins - BECAUSE of grace, our nature has been raised to a supernatural level. Recall that Christ gave the Apostles the ability to forgive sins AFTER the resurrection in John's Gospel. In Mark's Gospel, in the telling of the cripple who Christ forgave of sin, the people exclaimed that they were filled with awe that MAN had been given such an ability (to forgive sin). Thus, this divinization, this theosis, being made into the likeness of Christ, is the guiding principle of Christianity. The focus on "being saved" totally distorts the Gospel message, shortchanging it and turning it merely proclaiming a sentence to be deemed saved.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

A special gift, for selected men, for the soul purpose of ESTABLISHING the CHURCH of CHRIST by providing credibility of authority thru miracles. Once the CHURCH got on it's feet, the Apostles died one by one....... And Rome tried to usurp authority after a few hundred years by applying such verses to its own ends.....

So tell me...These special powers used to establish the Church. Where does the Bible say they have ended? And secondly, God promised His Church would remain until the end of time. Are you saying that the Church's existence is due MERELY to the Church itself?

Knowing the history of the Catholic Church, I would say its ONLY reason for its continued existence is that God KEEPS it in existence to preach and teach His Word correctly, sanctifying those who enter His Body and remaining Christ's presence in the world today. Thus, God's gifts CONTINUE to guide the Church, just as He promised. Throwing lightening bolts is not the power that the Spirit sees fit to continue, according to you, but this doesn't mean that other gifts remain.

Regards

 

[LittleNipper]

If Mary was without sin, she should never have ever died

We don't say she did. :wink: Where was the body burried? People kept track of such things back then. But there is absolutely no historical record of mary's body or grave. But your logic is flawed for Jesus died. Yes, he gave his life but he still died so it is quite possible to die if you have not sinned.
As for her "sins" that you attempt to cast upon her, she was not all knowing. Worry is not a sin. We can trust in God and still worry.

Are you so sure of your scriptural understandings that you are sure your views are not rationalizations and you have no rationalizations at all with regard to scripture. i.e. are you infallible? :-? Do you have a passage that says "mary did this and it was a sin". I can't find one.

Are you so sure of "experts" and "authorities," that you rely on THEIR judgments rather then trust GOD to reveal HIS WORD to you through the teaching of the HOLY SPIRIT. It certainly is on going process, but one that is not accomplished by trusting entirely in the determinations of others. To worry is to not trust GOD. To not trust GOD is a sin. But one GOD does forgive... JESUS gave up HIS spirit. No one took it from HIM. Where was Moses buried? Where was Herod buried. I don't believe people kept as good of records as you imagine, especially, if GOD didn't want such things known. Man, there are people running all around looking for visions of Mary. I can only imagine the circus they'd make of Mary's grave and lose sight of CHRIST.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: reply

A special gift, for selected men, for the soul purpose of ESTABLISHING the CHURCH of CHRIST by providing credibility of authority thru miracles. Once the CHURCH got on it's feet, the Apostles died one by one....... And Rome tried to usurp authority after a few hundred years by applying such verses to its own ends.....

So tell me...These special powers used to establish the Church. Where does the Bible say they have ended? And secondly, God promised His Church would remain until the end of time. Are you saying that the Church's existence is due MERELY to the Church itself?

Knowing the history of the Catholic Church, I would say its ONLY reason for its continued existence is that God KEEPS it in existence to preach and teach His Word correctly, sanctifying those who enter His Body and remaining Christ's presence in the world today. Thus, God's gifts CONTINUE to guide the Church, just as He promised. Throwing lightening bolts is not the power that the Spirit sees fit to continue, according to you, but this doesn't mean that other gifts remain.

Regards

Again, I point you to the book of I Corinthians 13:8-13. The Roman Catholic church is allowed to exist to keep believers such as myself in the Word and on their toes. The Holy Spirit protects CHRIST's CHURCH and nothing else. The HOLY SPIRIT is CHRIST's gift to every saved individual. The comforter has come!

 

[thessalonian]

It's been looking more to me like your on your heals. :-? Rarely do you counter scriptures I offer with other scriptures or give me any kind of a reason to trade the hope within me for the hope within you. My hope is in Christ Jesus and the Church (not Churches) that he established 2000 years ago! I trust that just as God promised in Jer 3:15 he has sent shepherds to feed the flock with knowledge and understanding. Praise and glory be to Christ Jesus.

 

[Gary]

More misinformation by the RC...

If I may, perhaps I can be of help. First of all, the guiding principle of Christianity is NOT "being saved". It is sharing in the Divine Nature. THAT is what Chrisitainity is really about. This change of focus as a result of the Reformation towards soteriological questions moves us from the Gospel - that we are to become another Christ, that we are to share in the Divine traits by grace.

More misinformation. That is of little help.

Let us consider what the confessions of faith REALLY say... and not rely on some misinformed RC version.

Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?

A. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God,(1) and fully to enjoy him forever.(2)

(1) Romans 11:36. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. 1 Corinthians 10:31. Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

(2) Psalm 73:24-28. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart filth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever. For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee. But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works. John 17:21-23. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


(WESTMINSTER LARGER CATECHISM - WITH PROOF TEXTS
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w ... index.html )

Read and learn. Misinformation was and appears still to be a function and trait of the RC "church" and it's followers.

 

[Gary]

Who do you surrender to in the hour of your death?

Who do you surrender to in the hour of your death?

RC teaching: We should entrust ourselves to Mary, "surrendering the 'hour of our death' wholly to her care" CCC#2677

The Bible: We should entrust ourselves to the Lord Jesus, surrendering the hour of our death wholly to His Care (Romans 10:13 Acts 4:12 Acts 7:59)

Romans 10:13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Again, another example of how RCs make Mary their lord instead of making Jesus Christ their Lord.

 

[thessalonian]

Let's post the whole catechism paragraph for context shall we Gary. I know you like to take snippets and forget about the context.

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

She prays for us dude. Do you get it. Never says she does any more than that with our petitions. It's like asking your pastor to pray for you. My kids trust that I will bring food home for them. This does not mean they don't trust in God to provide it.

By the way don't take "thy will be done" out of context as you would. It is God's will that it refers to. Though most certainly Mary's will and the will of all in heaven would be in allignment with God's will.

Blessings

 

[Gary]

... I trust that just as God promised in Jer 3:15 he has sent shepherds to feed the flock with knowledge and understanding.

You obviously missed the part or don't trust what Jesus promised His followers:

John 16:5-15 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Amazing is it not? Do you know Him, the Holy Spirit? Has He led you to truth yet?

 

[thessalonian]

You obviously missed the part or don't trust what Jesus promised His followers:

Once again false dichotomizing and lack of understanding of new testament math.

 

[Gary]

Catching the RC distorting the truth again

...She prays for us dude. Do you get it. Never says she does any more than that with our petitions. It's like asking your pastor to pray for you.

Nothing of the sort. Again, you misrepresent Reformed Theology. I do NOT give "my whole" over to my minister. Look what you RCs say: "We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care."

You may do that. Several of your popes did. You surrender and consecrate to MARY.

I will surrender to my Lord as the Bible teaches in the verses I quoted.

 

[thessalonian]

Again and again he does it. I completely surrender to the Lord Gary. I know it makes you feel good to provide these either or statements as a put down for Catholics Gary. A belittling.

God bless you though

 

[Gary]

Why thru Mary? Why not go directly to Jesus like He taught?

P.S. Jesus did not say: "I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me but remember, you must first surrender and consecrate your all to Mary so that she can lead you to Me via her prayers."

:o :o

 

[thessalonian]

Is that you trying to win us over with ridicule and sarcasm again Gary. And you with the Holy Spirit and all. We're just pagans after all.

 

[Gary]

Now the RC considers himself a pagan!!

Is that you trying to win us over with ridicule and sarcasm again Gary. And you with the Holy Spirit and all. We're just pagans after all.

Bless you too. Why do you consider yourself a pagan?

:-?

 

[thessalonian]

:roll:

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Again, I point you to the book of I Corinthians 13:8-13. The Roman Catholic church is allowed to exist to keep believers such as myself in the Word and on their toes. The Holy Spirit protects CHRIST's CHURCH and nothing else. The HOLY SPIRIT is CHRIST's gift to every saved individual. The comforter has come!

And again, you misinterpret the verses! The verses do not say anything about the gifts of the Spirit falling away.

8Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed.

When we die, love is the only thing that will exist. There will be no more need for faith, or hope, or gifts of the Spirit. Just love. However, this verse is talking about charity that will never fail, even when prophecies are void. This says nothing about prophecies NO LONGER BEING AVAILABLE, just that specific prophecies will, in time be made void, since they will eventually be fulfilled. These verses, again, say nothing about the gifts of the Spirit no longer being with us.

THAT, my friend, is anti-Biblical, as Christ says His Spirit will remain with the Church for all time. Not just the first generation. That is one of those traditions of men that you or someone else invented.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: More misinformation by the RC...

More misinformation. That is of little help.

Let us consider what the confessions of faith REALLY say... and not rely on some misinformed RC version.

Q. 1. What is the chief and highest end of man?

A. Man's chief and highest end is to glorify God,(1) and fully to enjoy him forever.(2)

This "confession" of faith is one invented by Protestants in the 1500's. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christianity was around 1400 years before that. This confession, one that no one is held accountable to, means little even to Protestants, so why should I take it into consideration? Admittedly, I agree with what you write (I don't see how this differs from what I wrote earlier) at least what you list, but I'll stick with the real thing, since I am aware that the Westminister Catechism has much to be desired.

And speaking of "misinforming people", why are you giving me some "confession" that was invented 1500 years AFTER Christ rose from the dead?

Furthermore, what does this "confession" have anything to do with "being saved"??? Even your own "confession" doesn't mention it, at least what you list. You are living proof that you don't even follow your own "confession"... At least you are a good Protestant, I suppose. As such, your appeal to ANY confession is pointless.

Misinformation was and appears still to be a function and trait of the RC "church" and it's followers

So first you twist other's messages to purposely lie about what others believe, and now you try to divert attention to the fact that your "confession" doesn't back up your idea that "being saved" is the guiding principle of your religion??? You seem perfectly oblivious to that beam in your eye.

Don't lecture me about misinforming. You are the one twisting other people's beliefs and making PURPOSELY false accusations, not me.
Your vertical connection with God doesn't sound too solid, if one finds it necessary to lie and then ignoring truth when it stares them in the face.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Again, What? No need for faith. Then why does the Bible teach faith? Read Hebrews 11 once. That was a riduclous statement.



May God bless, golfjack