The catholics have divinized Mary

[Gary]

It says "Love your neighbor as yourself"... not as you love God!

You are missing my point, Gary. You say a person cannot love Mary or honor her, because it takes away from loving God with our complete self.

No, again you misrepresent what I mean. I say that your Mary WORSHIP, your Mary CONSECRATION is the same as what the Lord expects from you towards HIM. The second commandment is about love for your neighbor as yourself and that is explained, by Jesus, in Luke 10:30-37. Nothing in that about "consecrating your ears and heart and your all to MARY.... someone who is not even on earth! It is all about helping others in need.

You also miss the point. I can (and do) love Mary. However, unlike you RC's, I keep my eyes on Jesus. As I have already explained, your Mary-worship is like God-worship. It has all the elements of a Lord-slave relationship. You have Mary as your lord. Christians have Jesus Christ as our Lord.

It is as simple as that.

 

[francisdesales]

Well done SFD except for a little emphasis which I would have added.

With Gary's math there is none left for your neighbor as you have stated FD. However with the New Testament Math there is far greater love left by his grace working in and through us, giving us the ability to love of which we could do nothing without him. With him we have an infinte fountain of love and mercy at our disposal.

Yes. One of the things that makes Christianity different is that we love God BY loving our neighbor. As Catholics, we realize that God made creation good and that our entire world are sacraments of God's presence. Note, on several occasions, Jesus says that how we treat others is a direct statement of how we treat HIM personally. Our "conduit" to God is THROUGH creation, in particular, Divine Worship. But look at these examples...

"...Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Matt 25: 34-40

Or consider this...

"And as he [Saul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:" Acts 9:3-5

It should be clear that the way we treat (or mistreat) our fellow man is the way we treat God Himself. Thus, 1 John tells us that those who claim to love God but hate their neighbor are liars. Those who are disdainful of Mary cannot possibly love God, as the Spirit of God is not within such a person. That is why I question those who tell me about their self-proclaimed vertical relationship with God while ignoring the horizontal one.

Regards

 

[thessalonian]

I keep my eyes on Jesus.

Ya, that Paul guy was really leading people astray when he said people were supposed to have their eyes on him and others.

1Cor.4
[16] I urge you, then, be imitators of me.

Phil.4
[9] What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do;

Heb.13
[7] Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.

2Thes.3
[7] For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you,

Gee, I though we were suppose to imitate Christ. Gary has his eyes on Christ alone but Paul is telling people to imitate him? What gives? Hint: the new testament math.

 

[thessalonian]

I have to say I am really enjoying this thread as it is helping me to see the New Testament Math all over the place in scripture. It is sad that some cannot see it. Without him we can do nothing but in him we can do all things. It truly is amazing when you see it. Glory to God in the Highest!

 

[Gary]

Re: Mary is not my lord... Jesus is Lord!

I also want to be very clear about this. I have a vertical relationship with my Lord. He is Kyrios and I am doulos.

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar" 1 John 4:20
By choosing not to love Mary, the mother of our Lord and Savior, your "vertical relationship" with God is cast in serious doubt, according to Scriptures.
Don't you subscribe to the following, or are you exempt from this?
"for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Luke 1:48
Does your "vertical relationship" allow you to hate the mother of God?

Again you misrepresent what I have been saying. Why do you do that?

You claim I "choose not to love Mary" ... a false statement.
You claim that my "vertical relationship" with God is in serious doubt ... again, a false conclusion based on a faulty assumption.
You imply that I hate the mother of Jesus.... another false claim.

Is this what your RC religion teaches you?

How sad!

 

[Gary]

thessalonian fails again...

Gee, I though we were suppose to imitate Christ. Gary has his eyes on Christ alone but Paul is telling people to imitate him? What gives? Hint: the new testament math.

LOL.... wrong again! No where does Paul say "consecrate yourself to me; pray to me" like you RCs do with Mary.

You are either a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.... or a slave to Mary.

Your "consecration" to Mary is exactly the same as what a slave does to his lord. In the Bible, that Lord is God/Jesus. In Roman Catholic dogma, that lord is Mary. Hence you make Mary your lord.

 

[francisdesales]

It says "Love your neighbor as yourself"... not as you love God!

You are missing my point, Gary. You say a person cannot love Mary or honor her, because it takes away from loving God with our complete self.

No, again you misrepresent what I mean. I say that your Mary WORSHIP, your Mary CONSECRATION is the same as what the Lord expects from you towards HIM.

What Mary worship? Catholics do not worship Mary. I am not aware of any Church teaching that tells us that Mary is due the worship that is due to God.

The second commandment is about love for your neighbor as yourself and that is explained, by Jesus, in Luke 10:30-37. Nothing in that about "consecrating your ears and heart and your all to MARY.... someone who is not even on earth! It is all about helping others in need.

And again, how can you love yourself, in Protestant math, if ALL love goes to God? According to you, I cannot love anything BUT God. Somehow, this explains why I cannot love and honor Mary?

You also miss the point. I can (and do) love Mary. However, unlike you RC's, I keep my eyes on Jesus.

You keep your eyes on Jesus? By speaking in such a way about His Mother? Interesting love you have. How would you feel if a person made disparaging comments that were untrue about YOUR mother? And how exactly does giving honor and praise to Christ's mother TAKE AWAY anything from God? When you comment positively on your wife's cooking, does your wife get upset that you are robbing her of HER honor by praising her creation?

You would be better served by trying to apply this example as an analogy of how Catholic devotion of Mary does NOT take away anything from God. Mary is nothing without her part in God's plan. By honoring her, we are merely recognizing the wonderful things God has done through His greatest of creation.

As I have already explained, your Mary-worship is like God-worship. It has all the elements of a Lord-slave relationship. You have Mary as your lord. Christians have Jesus Christ as our Lord.

Is LIKE God-worship? Your worship of a risen God is LIKE the Isis cult of 2000 years ago... Does that mean you are a follower of Isis because you worship a risen God? Similarities do not automatically mean we worship. There is NO external action that can be dubbed "worship ONLY", except sacrifice. We don't sacrifice to Mary. Thus, I don't see what you, as an OUTSIDE OBSERVER, can claim that we do that can be called worship. Honor and praise, yes. Worship as a God? Hardly.

Christians have Jesus Christ as our Lord.

Yes, thank you, you've expressed Catholicism well in that sentence...I am not aware of any Catholic teaching that tells us that Mary is our Lord.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Mary is not my lord... Jesus is Lord!

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar" 1 John 4:20
By choosing not to love Mary, the mother of our Lord and Savior, your "vertical relationship" with God is cast in serious doubt, according to Scriptures.
Don't you subscribe to the following, or are you exempt from this?
"for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Luke 1:48
Does your "vertical relationship" allow you to hate the mother of God?

Again you misrepresent what I have been saying. Why do you do that?

If anyone is being misrepresented, it is the Catholic faith, which NEVER has given worship to Mary akin to God. That is a fantasy of Protestantism. If you can find me official doctrinal teaching that Mary is to be worshipped as God, that we are to replace Jesus Christ with Mary, you'd have a valid argument.

All you have is a twisting of the purpose of consecrating oneself to Christ THROUGH Mary. Again, you quote St. Montefort out of context without obviously reading the first two chapters of his writing on the Devotion to Mary. If you did, this argument would be over, as you would then understand. However, rather than reading this book, you prefer to wallow in your ignorance, holding to what YOU think the Catholic Church teaches. I ask you, Gary, what sort of love on the vertical level can you claim when you have no desire to seek out what another person believes or why they believe it? Why do you prefer to attack what you THINK are Catholic beliefs, rather than searching for what they REALLY teach? You claim to love others by such actions?

The reason for this I have already given. You are not interested in truth, but in making false accusations. Is this what Jesus commandment to love means to you, Gary? I say all of this in the spirit of Matthew 18. I am not judging you, but your comments and knowledge of Catholicism do not show a search for truth, nor are they in the spirit of love.

When "apologizing", keep the following in mind:

"[be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" 1 Peter 3:15

Regards

 

[thessalonian]

If there is no Christ there is no God even if there was a Mary.
If there is no Christ then there is no hope even if there was a Mary.
If there is no Christ all faith is false and all hope is lost even if there was a Mary.
Who is Mary without Christ. Just a pile of dust. What can Mary do for us if there is no Christ, no God. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Does Mary do anything for us apart from Christ? Absolutely nothing! She has no power in and of herself apart from HIS GRACE!

Now I am quite sure that every Catholic on this board and our current and past popes would agree with this. If any Catholic disagree please say so.

Hearing none I will tell you one thing is certain. Mary is not divinized in the Catholic Church and anyone who says she is is twisting Catholic teaching.

Blessings

 

[Gary]

Consecrate yourself to our Lord, not Mary

All you have is a twisting of the purpose of consecrating oneself to Christ THROUGH Mary.

That is the whole point. Why do you RCs consecrate yourself to Mary? The only consecration done to anyone in the Bible is to our Lord.

The purpose is twisted. I agree. I have seen the results of that twisting. Fortunately, the ex-Roman Catholics in our church now have a true saving relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ rather than the RC dogma of praying that prayer to Mary every morning!

That is totally non-Scriptural and I suggest that you know it as well.

 

[Gary]

Which are Biblical?

Read this... and then decide. Is this Biblical? I see many which go directly against what the Bible teaches us. How many can you spot?

Consecration to Mary is secondly an external service, based on true exterior devotion. St. Louis numbers some of the external acts of devotion, where he says: "True devotion to Our Lady also has several exterior practices, of which the following are the principle ones:
(1) to enroll ourselves in Her confraternities and enter Her congregations;
(2) to join the religious order instituted in Her honor;
(3) to proclaim Her praises;
(4) to give alms, fast and to undergo outward and inward mortifications in Her honor;
(5) to wear Her liveries, such as the Rosary, the Scapular or the little chain;
(6) to recite with attention, devotion and modesty the Holy Rosary, composed of fifteen decades ... or of five decades...;
(7) to sing, or have sung, spiritual canticles in Her honor;
(8) to make a number of genuflections or reverences" in her honor while offering Her prayers and praises;
(9) "to take care of Her confraternities, to adorn Her altars, to crown and ornament Her images;
(10) to take carry Her images, or to have them carried, in procession, and to carry a picture or image of Her about on our own person, as a mighty arm against the evil spirit;
(11) to have copies of Her name or picture made and placed in churches, or in houses, or on the gates and entrances into cities, churches and houses;
(12) to consecrate ourselves to Her in a special and solemn manner." (True Devotion, n. 113)

Source: http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bvm/pfconsec.html

:o :o

Now read this prayer again. Where is Jesus mentioned?

My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

Can you not see the issue? How does MARY keep you? How does MARY guard you? Why do you become the "property and possession" of MARY rather than our Lord Jesus Christ?

You cannot escape the evidence. Your lord is Mary. Christians know that their Lord is Jesus.

 

[Gary]

lasagna worship

P.S In your little food analogy, IF I stated to act like a RC and started to have pictures and statues to the food... lasagna around my neck, little bits of lasagna on a cord... and started to recite the lasagna recipe over and over again... and then I build a huge lasagna statue and adorned it.... and the first thing I did in the morning was to repeat the lasagna recipe over and over again...

EVENTUALLY, do you not think my wife MAY suggest that my lasagna devotion/worship is taking the focus off her? Anyone who is married knows the answer to that.

:wink:

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Which are Biblical?

Consecration to Mary is secondly an external service, based on true exterior devotion. St. Louis numbers some of the external acts of devotion, where he says: "True devotion to Our Lady also has several exterior practices, of which the following are the principle ones...


Source: http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bvm/pfconsec.html

Gary,

Your honesty, love of others and search for the truth shows through in your selective quoting out of context. In the source you give above, the VERY FIRST SENTENCE on Consecration to Mary, what does it say, Gary? Let me jog your selective memory...

"Consecrate comes from the Latin word consecrare: "to dedicate, to set aside for a holy purpose." Consecration to Mary is a threefold spiritual reality in the service of the real Triune God."

Enough said. If you would bother to even READ the little on this summary of St. Montefort's book, you'd realize that Consecration to Mary does not do away with God, nor does it place Mary above or equal TO God.

And this displays your "vertical relationship" with God by purposely misleading other people and falsely accusing others??? I doubt God is amused by the irony...

Regards

 

[thessalonian]

Re: thessalonian fails again...

Gee, I though we were suppose to imitate Christ. Gary has his eyes on Christ alone but Paul is telling people to imitate him? What gives? Hint: the new testament math.

LOL.... wrong again! No where does Paul say "consecrate yourself to me; pray to me" like you RCs do with Mary.

You are either a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.... or a slave to Mary.

Your "consecration" to Mary is exactly the same as what a slave does to his lord. In the Bible, that Lord is God/Jesus. In Roman Catholic dogma, that lord is Mary. Hence you make Mary your lord.

More inability to grasp the depth of the New Testament Math.
You either imiatate Paul or imitate Christ.
It's the Church or Christ you will tell us.
Peter or Christ is the battle cry.
I've been told many times all praise, all honor goes to Christ.
Follow God, not man. Christ is the head of the Church, not a pope.
Love of Mary takes away from love of Christ we are told.
Christ is the only foundation it has been said many times.
Is it only Christ who is the light of the world I ask? Yes. But so are Christians the light of the world.
I give my whole self to my wife. Am I detracting from giving myself to Christ.
Devotion is said to be something only given to God yet when confronted, "oh well, yes of course you can be devoted to your wife and kids".

All of the above accusations by protestants of course can be shown to be false. But types like Gary will not listen. They will just continue on with more distortion.

To pray means to ask in one sense. It can be worship but is not neccessarily worship. They say we cannot prove that Mary and the saints can hear us. Neither do they offer any kind of a proof that she can't and so they log silence on their side of the column and declare victory. Ignoring that there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinner...and so those in heaven must have some idea of what is going on down here.

More "where is that in the Bible" when you have no such criticism for altar calls without baptisms. This question is never answered of course.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Consecrate yourself to our Lord, not Mary

All you have is a twisting of the purpose of consecrating oneself to Christ THROUGH Mary.

That is the whole point. Why do you RCs consecrate yourself to Mary? The only consecration done to anyone in the Bible is to our Lord.

This consecration is a devotion, not a requirement. Some people have a closer affinity to a saint because a particular saint, or Mary, shared in a particular suffering or difficulty that they did. For example, did Jesus suffer from blindness? No? Well, there are saints who have and STILL were able to give to God their all. Thus, it is perfectly logical to try to emulate this particular person, as this saint had endured and persevered. This IS biblical, as Paul tells others to emulate him.

The purpose is twisted. I agree. I have seen the results of that twisting. Fortunately, the ex-Roman Catholics in our church now have a true saving relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ rather than the RC dogma of praying that prayer to Mary every morning!

Well, thank you for your new-found honesty. As to what you have seen, result-wise, I would suggest that these "ex-Roman Catholics" didn't know their own faith. From my experience here and other forums and in teaching RCIA, I have come to find out that MOST people just do not know their faith. Thus, when a person who enjoys twisting what the Church teaches comes up to an unsuspecting Catholic (probably in name only) and makes the suggestions that you have, it is not unusual that doubt will be cast into that person's mind. Jesus has some choice words for such people who use LIES to entrap people:

"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." Mark 9:42

Gary, it is one thing to point out false teachings that you legitimately find. I have previously point out 1 Peter 3:15. However, when one must PURPOSELY LIE or TWIST the truth so as to win more warm bodies to your 'cause', it is cause for concern - not only for the "little ones" whom such people lie to, but also, to the welfare of your eternal soul - as Christ describes above. IF you believe you follow the truth, it shouldn't be necessary to lie and twist something to point out the fallacy of another position...

That is totally non-Scriptural and I suggest that you know it as well.

It is not anti-Scriptural, if that is what you mean. I am not concerned that the Consecration to Mary is in the Bible, as the Bible itself doesn't teach itseslf as the sole rule of faith. We as Christians should not EXPECT to find everything that Christians do or believe in the Bible, as Christians existed BEFORE the Scriptures were written (New Testament).

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Thess., Show me where it says one has to be water Baptized to be saved. How can a believer lose their salvation? Give me scripture that says there is mortal, venial sins, a purgatory, and that Mary doesn't need a savior? If she does need a Savior, then I imagine she was born with sin.


What I am really concerned about with Catholic Thelogy is how in the world does a Catholic get saved. You guys never really preach salvation. To me, all you preach is condemnation. Let me give you an example. On Tv. A question was asked about Abortion, and if this sin could be forgiven by a priest. The answer was, that the priest, but she had to go to a Bishop. Give me a break. I confess my sins to God and no man. In other words, man cannot forgive me.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: Which are Biblical?

Consecration to Mary is secondly an external service, based on true exterior devotion. St. Louis numbers some of the external acts of devotion, where he says: "True devotion to Our Lady also has several exterior practices, of which the following are the principle ones...


Source: http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bvm/pfconsec.html

Gary,

Your honesty, love of others and search for the truth shows through in your selective quoting out of context. In the source you give above, the VERY FIRST SENTENCE on Consecration to Mary, what does it say, Gary? Let me jog your selective memory...

"Consecrate comes from the Latin word consecrare: "to dedicate, to set aside for a holy purpose." Consecration to Mary is a threefold spiritual reality in the service of the real Triune God."

Enough said. If you would bother to even READ the little on this summary of St. Montefort's book, you'd realize that Consecration to Mary does not do away with God, nor does it place Mary above or equal TO God.

And this displays your "vertical relationship" with God by purposely misleading other people and falsely accusing others??? I doubt God is amused by the irony...

Regards

Never mind books written without GOD's inspiration but founded on human traditions and human logic. Words, words, words! Just like Mormonism it is all a little game of words. The fact remains that while JESUS walked on this earth there is no record that HE ever directed any of his followers to set Mary on any pedestal. There is nothing concerning how Mary and even Joseph raised either JESUS nor his half brothers or sisters. JESUS seems to go out of his way to make sure that everyone understood that HE didn't play favorites concerning his followers and family members.

The Roman Catholic church has taken it upon herself to promote the rationalization that Mary must have been born without original sin. The Roman Catholic church has taken it upon herself to promote that Mary was eternally a virgin after Christ's birth. The Roman Catholic church has taken it upon herself to promote Mary as the Queen of Heaven and an intercessory between man and GOD. And now you refuse to state the truth. That Roman Catholics pray to Mary. They sing praises to Mary (Ave Maria). I'm sorry if you guy's think I don't get it. My grandmother was a Roman Catholic. My dad was a Roman Catholic well into his twenties. I see no reason why either my grandmother or dad would lie about what they considered they learned in parochial school or from their local parish they attended. If they had it wrong perhaps it is because of additional failures of the Roman Catholic church not to be perfectly clear to those who attended that church. That in and of itself is condemning. I'm sorry if what I say sounds hurtful, but there is eternity and souls to consider here and I feel that the Roman Catholic church has been confusing people at best and at worst seeks only prestige, influence, and money.

 

[thessalonian]

Re: reply

Thess., Show me where it says one has to be water Baptized to be saved.

Well Peter says "baptism now saves you" and Jesus says "beleive and be baptized and you will be saved" but that is not the point. There is no such thing in scripture as an altar call where people don't get baptized. Doesn't matter if it's a saving act (as the above two passages among others clearly indicate) or not. If you think your doing what the Apostles did, you better not do altar calls without baptisms because it's simply not anywhere in scripture. That is if you are going to use the hyperdefinition demonstrated in this thread of Sola Scriptura.

How can a believer lose their salvation?

Well tell me something. What does "you have fallen from grace" mean? Can one fall from a tree he was never in in the first place?
What does "cut off" or "severed from Christ" mean. Can one be cut off or severed from something he was never a part of? One cannot lose their salvation if they have the grace of perseverence and if they continue choosing, by his grace to follow Christ. He can however turn and choose sin. Is that any more obvious from the scriptures. Stop believing maybe. Or does God force us to believe, kinda like rape.


[quote:cb98f] Give me scripture that says there is mortal, venial sins,

1John.5
[16] If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
[17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.


Oh, wait, you interpret that differently. What's that to me?

a purgatory,

1Cor.3
[15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Doesn't use the word purgatory, but the basic concept is there.
Oh, wait, you interpret that differently. What's that to me?

and that Mary doesn't need a savior? If she does need a Savior, then I imagine she was born with sin. [quote:cb98f]


Well if I thought she didn't need a savior I would be able to find such a passage in scripture. But there are two ways of saving someone. If they are walking toward a mudhole about to fall, you can warn them and they avoid it. If they have already fallen in you can help them out and clean them off. God's grace works in two ways. It can prevent us from sinning and it can also bring us out of sin and clean us off. Mary was totally on the prevenative side. We experience both.

[quote:cb98f]
What I am really concerned about with Catholic Thelogy is how in the world does a Catholic get saved. You guys never really preach salvation.

You must have slept in Mass if you went at all. I hear many sermons on how we are saved and on the grace of Christ.

To me, all you preach is condemnation. Let me give you an example. On Tv. A question was asked about Abortion, and if this sin could be forgiven by a priest. The answer was, that the priest, but she had to go to a Bishop. Give me a break. I confess my sins to God and no man. In other words, man cannot forgive me.

[/quote:cb98f][/quote:cb98f][/quote:cb98f]

Were you really this ignornant as a Catholic? We do confess to God when we confess to the priest. Christ acts through the priest to forgive our sins. If you don't like John 20:21-23 why don't you just rip it out of your bible or cross it out.

John 20
[20] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

See my posts on the New Testament Math above. You clearly don't get it.


God bless

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: reply

and that Mary doesn't need a savior? If she does need a Savior, then I imagine she was born with sin. [quote:52906]


Well if I thought she didn't need a savior I would be able to find such a passage in scripture. But there are two ways of saving someone. If they are walking toward a mudhole about to fall, you can warn them and they avoid it. If they have already fallen in you can help them out and clean them off. God's grace works in two ways. It can prevent us from sinning and it can also bring us out of sin and clean us off. Mary was totally on the prevenative side. We experience both.


God bless

[/quote:52906]

If Mary was without sin, she should never have ever died. JESUS GAVE his life----it was not taken from HIM. Mary committed the sin of omission when she failed to realize that JESUS was under GOD's protection and about GOD's work. She committed the sin of commission through worry. So we have recorded at least two mistakes on Mary's part (Luke 2:48). You obviously, will have your own rationalization, but I need none.

 

[thessalonian]

If Mary was without sin, she should never have ever died

We don't say she did. :wink: Where was the body burried? People kept track of such things back then. But there is absolutely no historical record of mary's body or grave. But your logic is flawed for Jesus died. Yes, he gave his life but he still died so it is quite possible to die if you have not sinned.
As for her "sins" that you attempt to cast upon her, she was not all knowing. Worry is not a sin. We can trust in God and still worry.

Are you so sure of your scriptural understandings that you are sure your views are not rationalizations and you have no rationalizations at all with regard to scripture. i.e. are you infallible? :-? Do you have a passage that says "mary did this and it was a sin". I can't find one.