The Chair of Peter
- Thread starter Mungo
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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That's my girl!
(South Wales Valley expression of approval.....for 'girl' substitute 'boy' when appropriate!).You wrote...
How can I be sure it's Pizzaro's bones?
How do we know he was instrumental in murdering countless Indians?
Might it be due to history?
How can you be sure that Peter's chair is Peter's chait, or that he even lived for that matter? Pizzaro killed countless Indians in the name of the Catholic denomination. Pizzaro conquered the Peruvians and his bones are in the cathedral in Lima, Peru. History is history, the record of what happened in the past. If you don't believe it, it's of no concern. You're the one who goes on and on about history.
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You've always made it sound like all the Christian history that ever took place is in the NT.
This is nonsense. Read the above paragraph. Did you get up on the wrong side of bed this morning?
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No....Christian history continued after Jesus died and to this day. The church is making history right now.
Wow! Really??? You mean history is an ongoing process? Amazing!
The problem with Catholics is, they fail to realize they are not the first. Peter too set up churches elsewhere, not just in Rome. None of them were called Catholic, not even the church of Rome was. That was adopted as title some centuries later. So, if Peter set up churches elsewhere, some of which were never conquered by the Roman Church later on (as in harlotry happened that it may sit the queen over its sisters) where is the seat of Peter? Is it really in Rome? If it is, then the gates of hell have prevailed! Thank God- " Wherever two or three gather in My name I am there in the midst of them"- even two or three constitutes church.
Annnd.... that does not constitute a designated area in Rome only. It means a universal consensus. That can be applied anywhere at any time . So, I am correct because Christ is-" wherever two or three gather in My name I am there in the midst of them"- church. And the first assembly was always in people's homes. That is fact. It is how the early church rolled. So, your Catholic talking points are moot. The rest is simply semantics on your part.
Acts 9:31
The Church Prospers
31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. 8And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.
You seem to prove my point with your rebuttal Mungo. And let's be clear the word Catholic is simply a translation for a letter addressed to people of faith by Ignatius of Antioch. The Greek roots of the term “Catholic” mean “according to ( kata -) the whole ( holos ),” or more colloquially, “universal.” But let's be clear, there is a colloquially of sorts among all institutions and not all is kosher. Concerning the Roman Church, like the Jew it too can be cut off by its own arrogance
At this time there was no institutionalized "Catholic Church" so-to-speak. Christianity was still illegal in Rome at this time. And NO! you can not claim a singular Roman Catholic church just because pagan Rome was in control of much of the middle east and Europe. Hence, the pagan Rome thingy that was persecuting Christians in Rome. It wasn't as bad from the pagans as it was from the circumcision party around Jerusalem and regions outward. Syria had a thriving Christian community way before Rome. Though Rome ruled many areas outside of the epicenter the closer you are to the flame the easier to get burned. Regions outside of Rome were more hospitable for Christian expression. I say only to a degree. That is simply the nature of the beast as conquerors. Before them it was the Greeks so-forth and so-on going back.
Paul is clear:
Romans 1:
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: ( Clearly this cannot be applied to all who go by Catholic).
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Unashamed of the Gospel
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being proclaimed all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my spirit in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times, asking that now at last by God’s will I may succeed in coming to you. 11For I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you, 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.
13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, how often I planned to come to you (but have been prevented from visiting until now), in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles. 14I am obligated both to Jews and Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.
Seems an order of succession here. first to the Jew then to the Greek and then to the Roman.
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 11:
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Roman Catholic Church is simply an ingrafted branch, it is not the original tree or root.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
What is that root? Clearly the scriptures. They are first to the Jew then all else.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.
Something to be said for being too big for your britches. The RCC has overstepped its bounds. Only a remnant will be saved from her just as among Jacob.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness.( Very few Catholics have continued in His kindness). Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.( For today a remnant of Jacob will be saved). 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
At this time there was no institutionalized "Catholic Church" so-to-speak. Christianity was still illegal in Rome at this time. And NO! you can not claim a singular Roman Catholic church just because pagan Rome was in control of much of the middle east and Europe. Hence, the pagan Rome thingy that was persecuting Christians in Rome. It wasn't as bad from the pagans as it was from the circumcision party around Jerusalem and regions outward. Syria had a thriving Christian community way before Rome. Though Rome ruled many areas outside of the epicenter the closer you are to the flame the easier to get burned. Regions outside of Rome were more hospitable for Christian expression. I say only to a degree. That is simply the nature of the beast as conquerors. Before them it was the Greeks so-forth and so-on going back.
Paul is clear:
Romans 1:
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: ( Clearly this cannot be applied to all who go by Catholic).
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Unashamed of the Gospel
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being proclaimed all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my spirit in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times, asking that now at last by God’s will I may succeed in coming to you. 11For I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you, 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.
13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, how often I planned to come to you (but have been prevented from visiting until now), in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles. 14I am obligated both to Jews and Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.
Seems an order of succession here. first to the Jew then to the Greek and then to the Roman.
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 11:
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Roman Catholic Church is simply an ingrafted branch, it is not the original tree or root.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
What is that root? Clearly the scriptures. They are first to the Jew then all else.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.
Something to be said for being too big for your britches. The RCC has overstepped its bounds. Only a remnant will be saved from her just as among Jacob.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness.( Very few Catholics have continued in His kindness). Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.( For today a remnant of Jacob will be saved). 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
There were many churches (congregations) but Christ only founded one Church.
He appointed Peter as leader of the apostles and therefore leader of his Church - see The Primacy of Peter.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church [singular] and the gates of Hades will not overcome it [singular].
More semantics and word play. Congregation- a group of people assembled for religious worship: Hence, assembly meaning Church and Christ is clear- " wherever two or more are gathered in My name I am there in the midst of them".
Listen if this is a little LARP on your part, (because you are making it too easy to dismantle your Catholic talking points) it matters not. I have been given the Key as have others like me. Let it all fall. Christ is clear and it is all pretty simple when people let go of all the complication put forth by denominational indoctrination. God is about peace not division. There is only one truth and the Catholic Church doesn't hold all of it. The Noble Lady-People like me- hold it. I am not permitted to share too much, just enough to prepare certain souls. The denominations are coming to an end. Only going to be ONE elect Noble Lady left standing. I am patient. All this banter and me engaging is simply me passing time.......Sooooo many mysteries of God, so little time.
Peter was the apostle to the Jews only.
Galatians 2:7-9, " On the contrary, when they saw that I [Paul] was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he [Jesus] who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles) and when James, Cephas and John, who had a reputation as pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we would go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised."
I know it's difficult to accept what Scripture clearly says when it goes against what you have been taught, but personally I believe God's word, not the teachings of men that contradict it!
It has been amply demonstrated before to you that God SENT Peter to gentiles, and Peter preached to gentiles.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church [singular] and the gates of Hades will not overcome it [singular]. (Mt 16:18)
Jesus founded one Church.
Jesus has one Body.
Jesus has one Bride.
That is not what the Bible says! It says in Scripture that Peter was the apostle to the Jews. Ample demonstration by you doesn't equate with God's word.
Where in Scripture does it say that God sent Peter to the Gentiles? (BTW, God doesn't lie or contradict Himself).
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Here is some of what Jesus said to Peter...
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.” Matthew 16:23
Makes no difference to the fact it does not say Catholic. It is simply addressing like -minded people who were not of the RCC which did not exist as an acceptable institution but of Christ- who were all like- minded. Again, word play and semantics on your part. Anyone can find a phrase, or an opinion addressed to a collective group of people. Throughout the bible a collective group is being address first and foremost and it was never called Catholic meaning assembly- but simply a group a people given many different names actually -by the Lord. Universal can be questionable ( a collective like-mindedness can too be in corruption), but Noble is always of fine quality. John the beloved says the name of Christ's completely church in one of his letters. Point: Not all your popes were Noble. Peter's seat is wherever obedience to Christ is present, period!.