The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

[ManofChrist101]

1) What Approach to women in ministry is consistent with Precise Biblical Teaching?

My understanding is that it is Errant for a church to appoint a woman as a pastor because in (1st Timothy 3) the list of qualifications for a pastor include that he be a MAN and faithful to his wife. Since one has to be a man to be a faithful husband it is only logical that women are excluded from this office. Furthermore (1st Timothy 3:5) likens church shepherding to FATHERHOOD and NOT MOTHERHOOD, thus making it pretty obvious that God intended this to be an office that only men should hold. All of the references to being a pastor address men and not women. From this it's clear that God reserves the role as shepherd to men. More evidence is in (1st Corinthians 11:3 indicates that man is head of woman).
However, what does the Bible say about ordaining women as ministers, preachers, and under-shepherds? The specific scripture that makes this question a difficult one is (1st Corinthians 14:34) which says "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."
Now after researching the topic there seem to be two schools of thought on this matter.

Though A is that Paul's letter was specifically to the church in Corinth whose female population may have been unruly and Paul's intention wasn't to silence women everywhere but the specific church women who were in Corinth. People with this belief also look at the Greek translation of the word for "women" in this verse which is GYNAIKES. This word also means "wife." For example: in (Ephesians 5:22) where wives are told to submit to husbands, the word GYNAIKES is used for the word "wife." (Fun-fact: that's how we get the word "gynecologist" in English.) They use the fact that the word for wives also means women, to mean that Paul wasn't talking about all women just the wives in Corinth and how they ought to defer to their husbands in terms of teaching and leadership. People who interpret the Scripture this way will often cite examples of female leadership in the Bible such as; Priscilla, Deborah, and Anna-the-prophetess as evidence that a female can be a minister or a pastor. Overall they dismiss the need to apply this scripture to every woman in every church and limit it to Paul's intent to address a specific problem in Corinth.

Now onto School of Thought B
These people believe the Bible prohibits women from holding positions of leadership in the Bible Citing the same chapter and verse in 1st Corinthians as is mentioned above (1st Corinthians 11:34). Moreover they refer to Paul's letter to timothy (1st Timothy 2:12) where it states "I do not permit a woman to teach." In response to School of though A, they state that the word GYNAIKES is used many other places to refer to women in general and not just wives such as (Luke 24:22) where women are amazed at the resurrection of Jesus. Because the word is used so widely to apply to both married and un-married women, they state that there is no reason to assume Paul was just talking about the married women and that he must have been addressing the church as a whole. Also they argue that nothing else Paul said in those verses indicated that he was trying to address only Corinth.

Personally I believe that God's law is sovereign so i will not accept any answer such as "the church needs to get with the times: (which i heard when i asked a presbyterian chaplain). Man has an obligation to reflect God's law, not the other way around!

With all of that said, it's clear the Bible forbids women as pastors but considering those verses: What is the Correct teaching on women as leaders or teachers in any capacity in church?

2) What is the exact meaning of Paul's teaching about hair and coverings of hair in (1st Corinthians 11: 13-15)
That's it!

It's a short question

 

[jasoncran]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

if that is the case,show me a command that i must have long hair? did jesus say that?

jesus being a jew would have long hair not short hair.

 

[for_his_glory]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

I apologize for the length of this as at times even I do not like long post, but I need to display the whole in order for understanding of what I wrote on this subject.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Genesis 1:27).

"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).

It is interesting to note that God called both male and female, "Adam" in the day they were created. Adam means "man." Adam and Eve were created with God-ordained differences from each other, but together they made a full "man," or a complete picture of God Himself. There was perfection in their union. Their differences were not a source of discord or inequality, but a beautiful compliment to each other. Together, God gave them the task of overseeing and ruling His creation

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28).

Notice that God gave the above commission to them both. There is no hint that there was anything but equal authority between man and woman as they existed in a sinless state. What changed things? In the next few chapters of Genesis, we find that sin entered the heart of Adam and Eve. The result was a temporary curse placed upon both man and woman, which would affect the whole earth.

This curse has affected all aspects of creation, from the ground itself (infested with weeds and thorns) to human relationships. (I say temporary, because in Christ this curse is removed, as we shall see later on).

When Eve ate the forbidden fruit and enticed Adam to sin with her, one of the consequences for women was the loss of equality with men, as men were to rule over women, instead of men and women ruling together. She would now be "ruled by her husband." However, when Jesus came as sinless man and died as the Messiah on the cross for us, all things were restored positionally. In actuality, the restoration of man (men and women) began to take place at that very moment.

Though the complete cleansing of the curse has not yet been manifested on the earth, the day is coming when it will be so. Or to put it another way, all those who receive Jesus as Savior receive restoration as Sons of God, but not all of us walk in that restoration--yet. Through Jesus, the curse upon women has been lifted. Women no longer have to receive pain in childbirth nor are they inferior to man with him ruling over them. Women can now be restored to their original place and plan that God had for all His "sons." Although we do not see all things restored at this time, "legally" in the spiritual realm, they already have been.

Adam was the head of the first race of mankind; and Jesus is the head of the last race, the adopted children of God. God only sees two races--the Adamic race (all natural-born mankind) and His children through Jesus (all those born of the spirit).

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:21-22).

Once we are born into the kingdom of God, we become new creatures in Christ. In the Spirit, we find there is "neither male nor female," just as there are no race distinctions nor class separations. The Lord looks on the hearts of His new creatures and therefore does not discriminate when He offers His love and privileges. Women are not excluded from any of God's promises nor callings merely because of their sex.

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Within God's own nature we find these same qualities. Both men and women are to become like Him as we are conformed to His image. Since this is true, there are times that under the unction of the Holy Spirit a woman should assert herself boldly. (This assertion, however, should not necessarily be toward others, but rather toward the enemy, Satan!) For men and women to become overcomers they must have this boldness and authority over the devil. God still desires that His people rule and reign with Him. His intention is to qualify us for that position, whether we be male or female. "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).

Even though "kings" is a masculine term, this is the ultimate destination He desires for all of His people. The Lord often uses both male and female terms to refer to both sexes. Women are to live in the "hidden man of the heart" (1 Peter 3:4). Both men and women in the church are referred to as "the bride of Christ." God has both a masculine and feminine nature. The mother heart of Jesus was evident as he prayed over Jerusalem.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37).

Submission is considered to be a feminine trait. However, Jesus submitted to the cross under the direction of the Father. If we walk in the Spirit, we too will possess both the masculine aggressiveness and feminine submissiveness of God.

Both submissiveness and aggressiveness are God-given strengths. Yet, both can be perverted, so that we become submissive and aggressive in the wrong ways, with the wrong attitudes. Because these qualities are so misused and misunderstood by the world, they have become distasteful and despised. If aggression is frowned upon, submission is viewed in an even more negative light in western culture. We equate submission with weakness and lack of spirit. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was never a human being more submitted to God than Jesus Christ-- yet never was there one as completely resistant to the system of the world! It took extraordinary submissiveness and aggression for Jesus to overcome the world. For the Christian, whether we are male or female, He is our model. We are to possess His qualities and use them according to the needs around us.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that?

 

[ManofChrist101]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

if that is the case,show me a command that i must have long hair? did jesus say that?

jesus being a jew would have long hair not short hair.

This doesnt really answer my question

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

1) I wouldn't belong to any church that treated women as inferior or incapable of holding a leadership position.

Romans 16 lists a good number of women in leadership positions in the church. Paul clearly speaks highly of these women and holds them in esteem. Phoebe, Priscilla, Aquila and others. The latter two are clearly seen in a pastoral role in Acts 18. And there's others, such as Lydia, who I can't find right now but recall being a major leader in the early church.

I know many Christians like their women submissive, but I don't see much precedent for that in the first century.

2) Paul specifically says to "judge for yourselves" in the first verse. In any case, Jesus had long hair, so I don't think he was preaching against it per se.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

This doesnt really answer my question

if jesus had that then who are we to be less? if suffered so shall we if god so wills.

isnt jesus the living walking torah? yes he is. he is all the law said one was to be. yet you deny that he as a male had long hair and men in the days of the torah covered their heads in prayer and in the temple.

 

[ManofChrist101]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

if jesus had that then who are we to be less? if suffered so shall we if god so wills.

isnt jesus the living walking torah? yes he is. he is all the law said one was to be. yet you deny that he as a male had long hair and men in the days of the torah covered their heads in prayer and in the temple.

You are not answering the question.
PLease either answer my question directly or leave

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

You are not answering the question.
PLease either answer my question directly or leave

That's not really how public message boards work.

His statement satisfied the conditions of an answer to your question. If it's not sufficient or you disagree with it, you are welcome to specify why you feel that way.

 

[reba]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Round 666 on this issue.....:

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

1) What Approach to women in ministry is consistent with Precise Biblical Teaching?
It's a short question

Ephesians 4:11 is the ONLY verse in the NT that mentions pastors. There is no qualifications in this part of scripture for what a pastor should be.
Overseers are another issue, and 1 Tim 3:11 should be carefully considered when looking at the qualifications of Overseers and Deacons.
There is a new commentary out by William D. Mounce on the Pastoral Epistles. It is volume 46 in the Word Biblical Commentary series. It is hard to get through for the lay person but it may be helpful. I personally believe we should not discriminate against women in pastoral roles, given the scripture is not very clear on it. Paul seems to contradict his own self in 1 Cor 14 but a closer study of this section of scripture may reveal more than is evident at the surface. Paul did call Priscilla a fellow worker and as such this made her one of Paul's peers.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

A judge had given a verdict giving punishment to a criminal. But the criminal simply escapes the punishment through other means. What does this mean?

• Disrespect for Judge and His verdict

We have a judge, God who gave a curse as a punishment to women for disobedience, that is "man shall rule over you" in Gen 3:16. This is the same thing Paul is referring to in 1Tim 2:12. Also in Isa 3:12, we clearly see women ruling over the people is not something God is pleased.

I have seen in 2John 1:1 where John addresses to a lady and refers the church members as her children. This is consistent to Paul's teaching in Titus 2:3-4 where older women teaching younger women and her children.

Regarding head covering, it is very clear in 1 Corinthians 11 on what scripture teaches and also gives a reason in 1Cor 11:10 which matches the same authority a woman should have as in Genesis.

This is what I can find in scripture.

 

[ManofChrist101]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preacing? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING)

That's not really how public message boards work.

His statement satisfied the conditions of an answer to your question. If it's not sufficient or you disagree with it, you are welcome to specify why you feel that way.

He didnt answer it at all so there is no answer with which to agree or disagree. All he did was ask a side question but not tackle the issue. This proves that he didnt want to have discourse on the topic which defeats the purpose of commenting.

 

[ManofChrist101]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Round 666 on this issue.....:

Please don't be overly-critical of my post. I didnt know this issue had been discussed the EXACT WAY I AM DISCUSSING IT.

 

[reba]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Please don't be overly-critical of my post. I didnt know this issue had been discussed the EXACT WAY I AM DISCUSSING IT.

Sorry, the intent was not to be critical of your post MoC , just know what is to follow.. this topic is most often very lively!

 

[ManofChrist101]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Sorry, the intent was not to be critical of your post MoC , just know what is to follow.. this topic is most often very lively!

Thanks for the heads up

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

We have a judge, God who gave a curse as a punishment to women for disobedience, that is "man shall rule over you" in Gen 3:16. This is the same thing Paul is referring to in 1Tim 2:12. Also in Isa 3:12, we clearly see women ruling over the people is not something God is pleased.

This is a common misunderstanding in Gen 3. God never cursed man or woman, He cursed the serpent, v14, and the ground, v17b.

 

[gr8fulbeliever]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Ephesians 4:11 is the ONLY verse in the NT that mentions pastors. There is no qualifications in this part of scripture for what a pastor should be.
Overseers are another issue, and 1 Tim 3:11 should be carefully considered when looking at the qualifications of Overseers and Deacons.
There is a new commentary out by William D. Mounce on the Pastoral Epistles. It is volume 46 in the Word Biblical Commentary series. It is hard to get through for the lay person but it may be helpful. I personally believe we should not discriminate against women in pastoral roles, given the scripture is not very clear on it. Paul seems to contradict his own self in 1 Cor 14 but a closer study of this section of scripture may reveal more than is evident at the surface. Paul did call Priscilla a fellow worker and as such this made her one of Paul's peers.

Scripture is clear, however, about teaching, and since in Western churches the role of pastor coincides with the role of teacher, this should be kept in mind. When it comes to more of a true pastoral role, i.e. shepherding, it is prudent for men to shepherd men and women to shepherd women where possible, not because of any specific command but because of simple logic.

 

[felix]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

This is a common misunderstanding in Gen 3. God never cursed man or woman, He cursed the serpent, v14, and the ground, v17b.

May be punishment would be a right word !?

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

May be punishment would be a right word !?

All I can see from v16 is that God did not intend on child bearing to be painful. Maybe that had to do with eating from the Tree of Life, or NOT being able to.
As to the last part of the verse, it appears that God consigned women to be submissive or subservient to man after that. I'm not really sure.
It would appear to be some kind of punishment, based on what her status was prior to that, although I think women are still help meets today. :dunno

 

[Stan53]

Re: The Correct Position on women Preaching? (Not women PASTORS, JUST WOMEN PREACHING

Scripture is clear, however, about teaching, and since in Western churches the role of pastor coincides with the role of teacher, this should be kept in mind. When it comes to more of a true pastoral role, i.e. shepherding, it is prudent for men to shepherd men and women to shepherd women where possible, not because of any specific command but because of simple logic.

I would need you to provide the scripture you believe makes your assertion clear. From the scripture I know, I don't believe it is that clear.
Paul and Peter both used the analogy of a shepherd, but that is NOT a role of leadership that I can see in the Bible. Jesus referred to Himself, as does the scripture, to being THE Shepherd. I have always thought there may be sheep dogs to help with the flock.