The "End Times"

[for_his_glory]

It really gets interesting. Normally iron and clay do not mix.
Jump to Revelation 13.

The two beasts work miracles? The union with man is weak.


Electricity will help evangelize the world?
If coal fired power plants do not pollute the air.

Medicine will help us evangelize the world?
If we do not create too many super bugs ( bacteria resistant to everything ).

The internet will help evangelize the world?
If the heresy does not win out.

Transportation will help evangelize the world?
If we do not kill to many people.

Down to clay and iron mixed by magic arts, or science / chemistry if you like another word better. At first we think science will deliver us, but it is a weak bond. We come out better with the spiritual gifts.

Covid does not seem to respond fully to mRNA. I am calling for an elder like Paul did. I wonder if the chosen elder is saying ( I am not going to eddif I have heard a lot negative stuff about him ).

Again cermet is a fake miracle, but right now super tough metal lathes use cutting tools made of cermet. Oh it is wonderful. Might not provide eternal life though.

The kingdom has been preached from John the Baptist. Not ships, spices, horses, chariots etc.

You asked.

eddif

Interesting take on your understanding and does have to do with Rev 13, but the full context of Daniel 2:31-45 is about Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's Dream which was about the four Empires beginning with Babylon.


Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon. This Empire ran from 2000BC - 1759BC

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.
This Empire ran from 753BC -27BC

 

[ezrider]

2 Corinthians 3:13 kjv
13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
And your verses
16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The veil in the temple was torn at the death of Jesus. Our veil is enlightened ( eyes of our understanding) when we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

I consider the vail which was done away in Christ as spoken of in 2 Cor 3 to be different than the veil of the temple that was torn at the death of Jesus. The veil of the temple does not remain until this very day, blinding their minds when reading the old testament, it is gone; but the vail for many still remains upon their hearts, even unto this very day. For the vail which is done away with in Christ is the vail of His FLESH. Moses put a vail over his face to cover the glory seen in the flesh. Jesus was crucified, then his body resurrected three days later; his flesh destroyed.

Christ was not glorified until after His death and resurrection. His flesh did not receive the glory, but rather his visage was marred. The Glory is revealed in the Spirit of Christ, not in his flesh. It was after the resurrection, on the road to Emmaus where he said to them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Let me give you an example. A follower and believer in Jesus Christ awaits the second coming, the return of the Son of Man, Jesus himself in the Flesh. They still have a vail over their hearts that blinds their minds when reading the law and the prophets. This blindness results in doctrines such as the one from Daniel 9:27 where people still believe it is the antichrist coming to make a covenant with many for one week. The don't know they are blinded. But for those in Christ, who look to His Spirit and not his flesh, then like those on the road to Emmaus, the Spirit will guide them into all things concerning Christ that were written of him. With the vail removed that was done away in the flesh of Christ, then we may see that Daniel 9:27 was a prophecy about Christ, Messiah the Prince, confirming the new covenant with many, before he is cut off in the midst of the week.

How does a prophecy about Christ confirming the new covenant, the new testament with many during the time of his ministry on earth become a prophecy about some future antichrist, except the vail remains upon their heart when reading the old testament? It is a testament to the power of the Spirit.

As was Jesus, we too are cloaked behind a vail. The vail of our own flesh. The Glory of the Lord is revealed in the inner man, in the spirit; not on the outer man as was impressed upon the flesh of Moses that he had to cover himself. When someone looks at me, they only see my flesh, and in judgement look upon my vail and see death. Only when we stop looking at the flesh are we able to see the inner man. When we look upon the flesh, we see sin and death. If that vail remains upon the heart when reading the law and the prophets, we might just find ourselves looking for prophecy of a future antichrist.

 

[eddif]

There is a limit to what I see clearly. I was asked what is my understanding. Now through a glass darkly - then face to face. Am I happy with ignorance? No it grieves me.

Ephesians 2:1 kjv
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We are not yet what we shall be.

What we are now is because of the quickening spirit
Jesus became and enters us if we open the door. Our vision is better, but the resurrection has not happened yet.

The veil was once opaque, now translucent?
The veil torn at the death of Jesus left us looking at symbols behind the veil. The eyes of our understanding is in the New Jerusalem, and part of that is not clear yet.

Sound like a cop out? Just quoting scripture. We have changes that happen at the last trump. Maybe a little shine on our face shines forth now?

We preach not ourselves.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Interesting take on your understanding and does have to do with Rev 13, but the full context of Daniel 2:31-45 is about Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's Dream which was about the four Empires beginning with Babylon.

Yeah but LOL
The Ephesians 2 verses are a type of saying Babylon concepts once ruled our lives. It either goes bad to worse or it turns around.

A concept can be in several contexts.:
A veil can be a face covering.
A veil can cover the Holy of Holies.
A veil can be a king seeing himself in control and not seeing God is involved In the affairs of men.
A veil can be not seeing the lawful use of the law.

First we see ourselves.
Second we see our sin.
Third we see repentance.
Fourth we see salvation in Christ Jesus.
Fifth we hear a knock at our door.
Sixth the quickening spirit helps us will and do of his good pleasure.
Seventh Jesus baptizes us in the Holy Ghost and Fire.
Eighth the Holy Spirit assigns gifts to give power to witness.
Excuse the numbers.

Teaching all things but mainly moving into Jesus. Not stressing Hebrews 6 foundation items after a certain point is reached, but strive to press on to the high calling in Christ Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

Yeah but LOL
The Ephesians 2 verses are a type of saying Babylon concepts once ruled our lives. It either goes bad to worse or it turns around.

A concept can be in several contexts.:
A veil can be a face covering.
A veil can cover the Holy of Holies.
A veil can be a king seeing himself in control and not seeing God is involved In the affairs of men.
A veil can be not seeing the lawful use of the law.

First we see ourselves.
Second we see our sin.
Third we see repentance.
Fourth we see salvation in Christ Jesus.
Fifth we hear a knock at our door.
Sixth the quickening spirit helps us will and do of his good pleasure.
Seventh Jesus baptizes us in the Holy Ghost and Fire.
Eighth the Holy Spirit assigns gifts to give power to witness.
Excuse the numbers.

Teaching all things but mainly moving into Jesus. Not stressing Hebrews 6 foundation items after a certain point is reached, but strive to press on to the high calling in Christ Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

very well thought out.

 

[YouShallKnowTheTruth]

Yes JLB, like that. "When you see all these things." Things they had yet to see. So things that hadn't happened yet.
But our Savior also likended his coming to the days of Noah. Days in which that believer was prepared for what was coming. In that sense, the end was coming.
The thing that started me thinking about "end times" was how bad the persecution of the believers would be. But then I thought, how is this really any different from persecution believers have always faced? Except for maybe the number of believers being killed, there really is no difference. Like the Apostles being martyred. For them, that was the end time.
There are "beasts" or a beast yet to come, but I believe we should focus on how Jesus' words apply to us now.
There are so many things in the Olivet discourse and the Book of Revelation of Jesus that can apply to believers throughout history and into the future that I would like to discuss with others here.

But Jesus was NOT talking "to believers throughout history." He was addressing those very disciples right there with Him about things that were going to happen to them personally. THEY were to "hear of wars and rumors of wars." THEY were to be hated and killed for His name's sake. THEY were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoke of by Daniel the Prophet (i.e. Jerusalem surrounded by armies, Luke 21). THEY were to hear of false Christs but THEY were not to go out to them and follow them. THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the trees. ALL THESE THINGS were to occur in THAT very generation and in none other. They involved the "coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and His sending out "His angels with a loud trumpet call" and their gathering of "His elect from the four winds."

THIS time of persecution was different from other persecutions because Jesus addressed THAT generation specifically about things that were going to personally happen to THEM. Jesus used the personal pronoun "YE" twenty times in Matthew 24. WE are NOT the YE!

Furthermore, John was clearly given the timing of the contents of the vision. He was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. He was told this in both the first chapter and the last (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6,10). The Book of Revelation deals with the things that were NEAR in John's day--it recounts the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.

 

[YouShallKnowTheTruth]

Oh, I agree (thus the intensifying part I mentioned meaning MORE fulfillments). There was no little horn yet, but there was a prototype such as Antiochus Epiphanies. That's what I meant. But this historical character, while a type, did not fulfill all.

What is in the book of Daniel and Revelation that indicates "how close we are to the second coming"?

 

[YouShallKnowTheTruth]

One hindrance to understanding prophecy is that the nations and peoples mentioned in end times prophecy are today not called by the same name as the biblical names. In addition, some of those peoples don't inhabit the same region, for example some of the Europeans are descended from those in the Middle east due to relocation in migrations, captivities, etc. This is how some believe Babylon is the Roman Empire in NT and later times. They actually were from there but were taken captive and/or relocated when subsequent Kingdoms after Babylon arose. So it goes beyond just a spiritual description. It's an actual people, but the point I'm making is folks may be looking one direction or region when it's the opposite way.

What people are actually doing is looking in the completely wrong time period.

 

[for_his_glory]

But Jesus was NOT talking "to believers throughout history." He was addressing those very disciples right there with Him about things that were going to happen to them personally. THEY were to "hear of wars and rumors of wars." THEY were to be hated and killed for His name's sake. THEY were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoke of by Daniel the Prophet (i.e. Jerusalem surrounded by armies, Luke 21). THEY were to hear of false Christs but THEY were not to go out to them and follow them. THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the trees. ALL THESE THINGS were to occur in THAT very generation and in none other. They involved the "coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and His sending out "His angels with a loud trumpet call" and their gathering of "His elect from the four winds."

THIS time of persecution was different from other persecutions because Jesus addressed THAT generation specifically about things that were going to personally happen to THEM. Jesus used the personal pronoun "YE" twenty times in Matthew 24. WE are NOT the YE!

Furthermore, John was clearly given the timing of the contents of the vision. He was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. He was told this in both the first chapter and the last (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6,10). The Book of Revelation deals with the things that were NEAR in John's day--it recounts the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.

By all you have said here, do you believe Jesus has already returned?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But Jesus was NOT talking "to believers throughout history." He was addressing those very disciples right there with Him about things that were going to happen to them personally. THEY were to "hear of wars and rumors of wars." THEY were to be hated and killed for His name's sake. THEY were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoke of by Daniel the Prophet (i.e. Jerusalem surrounded by armies, Luke 21). THEY were to hear of false Christs but THEY were not to go out to them and follow them. THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the trees. ALL THESE THINGS were to occur in THAT very generation and in none other. They involved the "coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and His sending out "His angels with a loud trumpet call" and their gathering of "His elect from the four winds."

THIS time of persecution was different from other persecutions because Jesus addressed THAT generation specifically about things that were going to personally happen to THEM. Jesus used the personal pronoun "YE" twenty times in Matthew 24. WE are NOT the YE!

Furthermore, John was clearly given the timing of the contents of the vision. He was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. He was told this in both the first chapter and the last (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6,10). The Book of Revelation deals with the things that were NEAR in John's day--it recounts the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.

The "revelation of Jesus Christ" is the unveiling of him in a believers life. It's to know him.

The Apostles were part of the labor of the Prophets who preceded them (Jn.4:38) and we take part of both because we are all one body.

We still should have no fear of rumors of war, or being hated for our faith in Jesus, or follow false teachers.

The abomination which causes desolation is seen in man putting himself in Gods' place. It's exemplified in the cross of our Lord. Fleeing to the mountains and not carrying anything from home has nothing to do with running from adversity, but with beginning a new life in Christ.

Our Lord coming in clouds is in Spirit.
Gathering his people from the 4 horsemen is from tribulation.

 

[YouShallKnowTheTruth]

By all you have said here, do you believe Jesus has already returned?

Jesus returned when and how He said He would--in the generation in which He lived.

 

[JLB]

Jesus returned when and how He said He would--in the generation in which He lived.

Jesus has not returned, nor has the ressurection of the dead in Christ occured.

When Jesus returns He Himself will destroy those who come against Jerusalem.


Did the Romans conquer Jerusalem or did Jesus fight against them?



Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:1-4

• Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

JLB

 

[eddif]

Jesus returned when and how He said He would--in the generation in which He lived.

Well I do not know about that.

We are going to have multiple problems with all this.

1. A.As Jesus departed from human life the Disciples were not there.
B. The disciples were not present at his resurrection

2. Acts 1:9 kjv
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
B. They did not see him come from the clouds in their lifetime

3. I am probably the only one who sees Jesus symbolically come into the cloud shapes of their brain / mind at pentecost. Because we did not see him go that way I suggest we do not discuss this. I will be in trouble even mentioning ( Christ in us ).

I think #2 is what fits.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Jesus has not returned, nor has the ressurection of the dead in Christ occured.

When Jesus returns He Himself will destroy those who come against Jerusalem.


Did the Romans conquer Jerusalem or did Jesus fight against them?



Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:1-4

• Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

JLB

Colossians 2:15 kjv
15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Not in physical battle, but ….,,


I know eddif just shut up

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't believe all prophecy has come to pass. I believe it's on going, or current until our Lord returns. I don't mean to say that all the people or entities described as "yet to come" are here now, but in a sense, what they do is really no different from what has always been done. It's like a story that keeps replaying over and over. Does that make sense to anyone?

Hi Journeyman,

I see history as actually being linear, not circular with no forward progression.

Jesus was prophesied to come into the world with that mission and he did and that will not happen again.

The events he foretold regarding those who pierced him occurred in our past and will never happen again as he says they wouldn’t.

The nations have moved and are still moving away from war but prefer peaceful coexistence, but by bit. The unwillingness to engage openly with Russia in war is evidence of this.

The world is nothing like it was 2000 years ago. That is forward progress as the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord.

Some things repeat as humans again make those same choices as their ancestors did, but many things will not be repeated.

That’s just my view.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus has not returned, nor has the ressurection of the dead in Christ occured.

When Jesus returns He Himself will destroy those who come against Jerusalem.


Did the Romans conquer Jerusalem or did Jesus fight against them?



Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:1-4

• Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

JLB

Hi JLB,

I seriously doubt Jesus us interested in a city. He is interested in his people.

Now notice those in that city suffered before they were saved. So the timing is not one of the inhabitants saved. But afterwards, those who did those deeds would themselves be punished, which is what happened.

And Jesus is conquering the nations not with the sword but with the power of His Gospel. There are more just nations than in His day. There is more peace and freedom than in his day.

The bodily second coming hasn’t occurred, but he has come in other ways, especially judgement. “I’m coming” also includes those ways too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus returned when and how He said He would--in the generation in which He lived.

Yes, He “returned” in judgement same as he warned the Ephesians he would if they didn’t shape up. His enemies have not yet been made a footstool for his feet so that second coming (no signs btw) is before us.

 

[eddif]

Hi JLB,

I seriously doubt Jesus us interested in a city. He is interested in his people.

The fact that a New Jerusalem is mentioned is significant. Yes you are right about his people. The old Jerusalem was less important in a sense, but some symbolism is a reminder.

Being healed physically is not super spiritual, but if they were to know that Jesus could forgive sins
( he said rise and be healed).

There is a progression, but the wheels within wheels exists too.

Because seeds are equal to the word of God, it does not mean that seeds do not exist as a visable symbol. The ultimate reality does not destroy the temporal symbol totally.

Really I am in over my head. These things are above who I am.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The fact that a New Jerusalem is mentioned is significant. Yes you are right about his people. The old Jerusalem was less important in a sense, but some symbolism is a reminder.

I’ve been to the city of Jerusalem and next to Rome it the most idolatrous city I’ve ever seen. I doubt it is more meaningful to God than New York.

Being healed physically is not super spiritual, but if they were to know that Jesus could forgive sins
( he said rise and be healed).

If a man has been healed physically it’s pretty significant.

There is a progression, but the wheels within wheels exists too.

I don’t see that much.

Because seeds are equal to the word of God, it does not mean that seeds do not exist as a visable symbol. The ultimate reality does not destroy the temporal symbol totally.

True and I agree.

Really I am in over my head. These things are above who I am.

You did pretty well.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

The fact that a New Jerusalem is mentioned is significant. Yes you are right about his people. The old Jerusalem was less important in a sense, but some symbolism is a reminder.

Being healed physically is not super spiritual, but if they were to know that Jesus could forgive sins
( he said rise and be healed).

There is a progression, but the wheels within wheels exists too.

Because seeds are equal to the word of God, it does not mean that seeds do not exist as a visable symbol. The ultimate reality does not destroy the temporal symbol totally.

Really I am in over my head. These things are above who I am.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Continuing the thought Dorothy Mae

John 14:11 kjv
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The disciples later did healings, miracles etc.
So, what are the greater works?

They ( New Testament writers) explained the ultimate realities beyond the temporal symbols (to the multitudes / world). Jesus just got to tell the disciples the meaning of parables, but the New Testament writings (after Pentecost) tell of ultimate reality without all of it being concealed in symbolic form.

We can be so heavenly minded that we are no earthly good.
Or
We can be so earthly minded we are no heavenly good.

End times Revelation sits in both realms. Strains our little brains. Knowing the prophets of old were wondering what they were saying.

Two parts:
Symbolism
Ultimate reality in Christ Jesus.

eddif