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[__ Science __ ] The Fall and the Problem of Millions of Years of Natural Evil

Barbarian

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Clearly, the translation that you use has assigned a different English meaning to the word than "evil" than other well-respected translations.
KJV:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I think the KJV is a well-respected translation.

"Evil" had a shift in meaning in the 18th century.

evil (n.)
"anything that causes injury, anything that harms or is likely to harm; a malady or disease; conduct contrary to standards of morals or righteousness," Old English yfel (see evil (adj.)).


M. tuberculosis infection (then called "scrofula") was once called "the king's evil", because it was believed that the touch of a reigning monarch could cure it.

Not only did doctors use astrology before treating patients, but kings thought that by touching people suffering from scrofula, the 'King's Evil', they could cure them.

It's not a good idea to interpret the Bible and create doctrine using only one version's interpretation of a single word.

Yep. Modern revisions are sometimes necessary because words change. But there is always something lost. There is a richness of meaning in the earlier translation that is present in the modern revision.
 

jaybo

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KJV:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I think the KJV is a well-respected translation.

"Evil" had a shift in meaning in the 18th century.

evil (n.)
"anything that causes injury, anything that harms or is likely to harm; a malady or disease; conduct contrary to standards of morals or righteousness," Old English yfel (see evil (adj.)).


M. tuberculosis infection (then called "scrofula") was once called "the king's evil", because it was believed that the touch of a reigning monarch could cure it.

Not only did doctors use astrology before treating patients, but kings thought that by touching people suffering from scrofula, the 'King's Evil', they could cure them.



Yep. Modern revisions are sometimes necessary because words change. But there is always something lost. There is a richness of meaning in the earlier translation that is present in the modern revision.
I assume that you mean "There is a richness of meaning in the earlier translation that is not present in the modern revision". Of course, there is no objective basis for saying that. Modern translations superbly convey the full meaning of the earliest and best source documents. There is nothing lost; in fact much is gained.
 

Barbarian

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I assume that you mean "There is a richness of meaning in the earlier translation that is not present in the modern revision". Of course, there is no objective basis for saying that. Modern translations superbly convey the full meaning of the earliest and best source documents. There is nothing lost; in fact much is gained.
I don't see that the revised versions are as effective as those closer to the original.

Our concept of evil is not the same as the Biblical concept, which included much more than wickedness.
 

wondering

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The definition of "evil" is the problem, I think...

Isaias 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

A hurricane is "evil" in the sense of Isaias; it's misfortune. But hurricanes are not wicked; they have no intent whatever.

Sin is a rebellion against God. It is not merely evil, but also wicked.
In theology evil means either of the two definitions you give.
Sin is evil
A hurricane is evil

It can be moral or it can be natural.
The biggest problem in Christianity is the problem of evil...

(1) moral evil, which is real if any intellectual being knowingly does anything he or she ought not to have done without being compelled to do it; and
(2) physical evil, which is real if some beings have suffered in situations caused by nonrational beings, or through actions of rational beings acting nonrationally.

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/evil/



Any BIBLICAL definition of evil will agree with the above.
 

jaybo

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I don't see that the revised versions are as effective as those closer to the original.

Our concept of evil is not the same as the Biblical concept, which included much more than wickedness.
a) I don't understand why part of my earlier post was struck through as I certainly didn't do that.
b) What are "the revised versions"? Do you mean modern translations? What do you mean by "those closer to the original"?

There are no original texts. There are only copies; that is the best, along with non-Biblical sources, that translators have to go with to translate the early texts into English. IMHO the modern translators have done a superb job of conveying the words and meanings of the earliest texts into modern English (and other languages, of course).

Also, what do you define as "our concept of evil"? And exactly what is the Biblical concept as evil?
 

Barbarian

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a) I don't understand why part of my earlier post was struck through as I certainly didn't do that.
I wondered about that. Just a glitch, I guess.

There are no original texts. There are only copies; that is the best, along with non-Biblical sources, that translators have to go with to translate the early texts into English. IMHO the modern translators have done a superb job of conveying the words and meanings of the earliest texts into modern English (and other languages, of course).
That's why there are different texts. I'm just pointing out the drift in meaning over the centuries, and if you care about the details, it's a problem.

"Evil", in medieval and earlier English, was remarkably similar to the word used in Hebrew.

It meant "bad", including "disaster", "wicked", misfortune, and so on. Hence, God's meaning when He said "I create evil."

Not wickedness, but misfortune.
 

jaybo

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I wondered about that. Just a glitch, I guess.


That's why there are different texts. I'm just pointing out the drift in meaning over the centuries, and if you care about the details, it's a problem.

"Evil", in medieval and earlier English, was remarkably similar to the word used in Hebrew.

It meant "bad", including "disaster", "wicked", misfortune, and so on. Hence, God's meaning when He said "I create evil."

Not wickedness, but misfortune.
If "evil" meant "bad", including "disaster", "wicked", misfortune, and so on then God meant wickedness and misfortune.
 

choir loft

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Sin is a symptom of evil.
Evil entered the world due to the fall.
A hurricane does not sin...but it IS evil.

First two lines are gospel. Evil entered the world because of Eve and Adam. It was US, humanity, that brought evil into the world. It wasn't God and it wasn't the devil.

Last line is illogical.

Since we've established that evil is a consequence of human SIN, then a hurricane as a natural phenomenon of weather patterns would not be evil. Its effects are disastrous and potentially fatal to man and beast, but its just a storm and as such has no personality at all. I've lived through many hurricanes and feared them all, but I can attest as a Florida resident that the weather isn't evil. Its either lovely or threatening.

Jesus died on the cross to defeat SIN in humanity. He didn't die on the cross to stop hurricanes.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

choir loft

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If "evil" meant "bad", including "disaster", "wicked", misfortune, and so on then God meant wickedness and misfortune.

Evil is the result of SIN. We know this from Genesis chapter 3. Read it.
Misfortune is a result of sheer chance. Evil is a deliberate act against man or God. They aren't the same thing. The Bible says so because it defines SIN in no uncertain terms. Humans tend to confuse the issue so as to justify their wickedness.

SIN is now a component of the human condition. Most Americans today don't know what SIN is because they don't have a Biblical standard to refer to. That standard is the LAW of Moses. Given by God to the Hebrew nation the LAW defines SIN and God's plan of redemption from it.

For the purpose of illuminating the uninitiated, the LAW may be simply defined as the 10 Commandments (*). Breaking the LAW is called SIN because it flies in the face of how God wants us to live on the earth. Any SIN is an offense against God and is punishable by DEATH.

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:4

He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW. - Romans 2:12

There is a world of difference between SIN and mistakes. A boy learning to ride his bicycle may make a mistake and fall off before he learns how to ride. The child is not under a death sentence because he fell off his bike. Mistakes are a blessing because we learn by them, we profit by them. For this reason some have declared that mistakes are a greater blessing than success.

- Mistakes are a blessing because we learn and profit by them.
- SIN is a curse because our rebellion against God curses us to death.

Big difference. The difference is defined by the LAW of Moses. Read the first 5 books of the Bible. Therein is contained the full details of the LAW - the definition of SIN and how God redeems us from it.

In other words, no one can be saved apart from the LAW. (Matthew 5:17)

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The 10 Commandments
1. You shall have no other God
2. You shall make no idols.
3. You shall not take the Name of the Lord in vain.
4. Keep the sabbath day holy (Saturday - last day of the week)
5. Honor your father and mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not LIE about your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet (to want what is not yours to take)


One day God appeared before the Arabs and offered them a gift.
"What is this gift," they asked.
"It is a commandment," God said. "You shall not kill."
"We can't live by that," the Arabs said. "Go away from us."
Next, God appeared to the Americans and offered them a commandment.
"What is the commandment," the Americans wanted to know.
"You shall not commit adultery," God said.
"Oh no," declared the Americans. "We cannot abide by such a restriction. Go away."
Lastly God appeared to the Jews and asked if they would like to have a commandment.
"How much is this commandment," the Jews asked.
"Nothing," God said. "It's free."
"Fine," the Jews answered. "Give us 10."

(thanks and a tip of the hat to my friend Rabbi Jeff)
 
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wondering

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First two lines are gospel. Evil entered the world because of Eve and Adam. It was US, humanity, that brought evil into the world. It wasn't God and it wasn't the devil.

Last line is illogical.

Since we've established that evil is a consequence of human SIN, then a hurricane as a natural phenomenon of weather patterns would not be evil. Its effects are disastrous and potentially fatal to man and beast, but its just a storm and as such has no personality at all. I've lived through many hurricanes and feared them all, but I can attest as a Florida resident that the weather isn't evil. Its either lovely or threatening.

Jesus died on the cross to defeat SIN in humanity. He didn't die on the cross to stop hurricanes.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Evil did not enter only into Adam and Eve and all of humanity...
It also entered into nature.

Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.



There is moral evil and there is natural evil.
A hurricane does not sin,,,but it is evil in Christian theology.

The Problem of Evil Evil is a major theoretical and practical problem for a Christian. Evil is of two types. First, there is natural evil. There are destructive forces in nature, ranging from earthquakes and tidal waves to cancer. Second, there is moral evil which has its source in the choice and action of humans. This type of evil includes war, crime, cruelty, and slavery.

source: https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/eng/hbd/e/evil.html
 

choir loft

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Evil did not enter only into Adam and Eve and all of humanity...
It also entered into nature.

Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.



There is moral evil and there is natural evil.
A hurricane does not sin,,,but it is evil in Christian theology.

The Problem of Evil Evil is a major theoretical and practical problem for a Christian. Evil is of two types. First, there is natural evil. There are destructive forces in nature, ranging from earthquakes and tidal waves to cancer. Second, there is moral evil which has its source in the choice and action of humans. This type of evil includes war, crime, cruelty, and slavery.

source: https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/eng/hbd/e/evil.html
The analogy quoted here is a typical Christian white wash of the REAL reason for evil in the world. We redefine the problem and reorient our minds away from the problem so as to not see it. In the end we persuade ourselves that the problem of evil is something other than US. In the end, like a dog eating its own vomit, we always return to it.

THE PROBLEM OF SIN IS US.

Pseudo philosophical/theological treatment of the problem serves only to mask and obfuscate the REAL source of evil - US.

While admission is allegedly made to evil by separating it into types, the exercise serves only to distract the reader's attention away from the source of the problem and those who receive its consequences - US. In truth evil IS OUR FAULT and it is WE who suffer the guilt of it. DEATH is the consequence of our choice to break God's LAW.

PERSONAL EVIL isn't mentioned at all in our doctrine of demons. Instead it's further subdivided into dispassionate impersonal categories. What is war? What is crime? What is cruelty? What is slavery?

WAR is SIN on a personal level approved by society. Each and every soldier on the field as well as each and every civilian at home is guilty of individual evil. We use political rhetoric to justify it, but in the end it's nothing less than evil which WE willingly and gladly force upon our fellow man. We embrace it. We love it. Some of us carry guns to bring evil into the world. The rest applaud this madness.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." - General Robert E. Lee

Here in the 21st century we are not only fond of war, but we glorify it in our entertainment, our celebrations and in our media. We celebrate those we train to be murderers and we deny the evil they've personally brought to other human beings by calling it something it isn't - honorable. Yet in the dark of night on their bedroom pillows they remember the personal evil they've done. They remember their SIN. More have died at their own hand from guilt than from enemy bullets. WAR is SIN that eats away the heart of a nation and each soldier that executes it.

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death." - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Indeed, we are already there. We have arrived at spiritual death. Our nation is dead to peace, to righteousness and to morality. We shall drink the bitter dregs of war and violence and SIN for the rest of our natural lives or until the nation itself is brought to its knees and changed.

CRIME is SIN on a personal level without the approval of society. "If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue?" - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

CRUELTY is SIN fogged by language of the day. It isn't personal unless you are the one being mistreated. A supervisor who demands his subordinates work long hours to profit the company at the expense of an employees health and family isn't being cruel. We are told she is being efficient when in fact she is as cruel as any Nazi storm trooper with a rifle and bayonet.

SLAVERY is an accepted SIN of life except for the ones who are victimized by it. Both slave and employer suffer from this most personal form of SIN, yet it is seldom admitted even by the one who suffers. The good of the company or the country is hoisted as a flag to be saluted, yet it flies in the face of decency and peace and the logic of consideration of one's fellow man.

In all this the Name of God is not honored or considered. The violation of God's LAW isn't even mentioned. It is this LAW which defines SIN against God and man, yet we ignore it as easily as we flush our troubles down the toilet drain.

EVIL arises when God's LAW is broken. The chief offender is the church and the minions who bring it home in a personal way are US. WE are EVIL and it is WE who God died on the cross to save from it.

Turning the light of truth away from US doesn't address the definition of evil - it masks it and confuses the solution.

The solution is REPENTANCE according to the LAW of God.
The solution is to humbly approach the throne of God with the sacrifice He has provided.
The solution is to ADMIT TO GOD AND OURSELVES that WE are evil and to ask forgiveness for our SIN.
The solution MAY be to receive a new life that denies evil in all its forms; WAR, CRIME, CRUELTY, SLAVERY and all the SINs listed in God's LAW.

Evil is that condition that arises as a result of personal SIN.

EVIL is NOT a theory or a problem. IT IS the result of SIN. Its consequence is DEATH.

Is death a problem for you?

You tell me.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Last edited:

wondering

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The analogy quoted here is a typical Christian white wash of the REAL reason for evil in the world. We redefine the problem and reorient our minds away from the problem so as to not see it. In the end we persuade ourselves that the problem of evil is something other than US. In the end, like a dog eating its own vomit, we always return to it.

THE PROBLEM OF SIN IS US.

Pseudo philosophical/theological treatment of the problem serves only to mask and obfuscate the REAL source of evil - US.

While admission is allegedly made to evil by separating it into types, the exercise serves only to distract the reader's attention away from the source of the problem and those who receive its consequences - US. In truth evil IS OUR FAULT and it is WE who suffer the guilt of it. DEATH is the consequence of our choice to break God's LAW.

PERSONAL EVIL isn't mentioned at all in our doctrine of demons. Instead it's further subdivided into dispassionate impersonal categories. What is war? What is crime? What is cruelty? What is slavery?

WAR is SIN on a personal level approved by society. Each and every soldier on the field as well as each and every civilian at home is guilty of individual evil. We use political rhetoric to justify it, but in the end it's nothing less than evil which WE willingly and gladly force upon our fellow man. We embrace it. We love it. Some of us carry guns to bring evil into the world. The rest applaud this madness.

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." - General Robert E. Lee

Here in the 21st century we are not only fond of war, but we glorify it in our entertainment, our celebrations and in our media. We celebrate those we train to be murderers and we deny the evil they've personally brought to other human beings by calling it something it isn't - honorable. Yet in the dark of night on their bedroom pillows they remember the personal evil they've done. They remember their SIN. More have died at their own hand from guilt than from enemy bullets. WAR is SIN that eats away the heart of a nation and each soldier that executes it.

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death." - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Indeed, we are already there. We have arrived at spiritual death. Our nation is dead to peace, to righteousness and to morality. We shall drink the bitter dregs of war and violence and SIN for the rest of our natural lives or until the nation itself is brought to its knees and changed.

CRIME is SIN on a personal level without the approval of society. "If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue?" - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

CRUELTY is SIN fogged by language of the day. It isn't personal unless you are the one being mistreated. A supervisor who demands his subordinates work long hours to profit the company at the expense of an employees health and family isn't being cruel. We are told she is being efficient when in fact she is as cruel as any Nazi storm trooper with a rifle and bayonet.

SLAVERY is an accepted SIN of life except for the ones who are victimized by it. Both slave and employer suffer from this most personal form of SIN, yet it is seldom admitted even by the one who suffers. The good of the company or the country is hoisted as a flag to be saluted, yet it flies in the face of decency and peace and the logic of consideration of one's fellow man.

In all this the Name of God is not honored or considered. The violation of God's LAW isn't even mentioned. It is this LAW which defines SIN against God and man, yet we ignore it as easily as we flush our troubles down the toilet drain.

EVIL arises when God's LAW is broken. The chief offender is the church and the minions who bring it home in a personal way are US. WE are EVIL and it is WE who God died on the cross to save from it.

Turning the light of truth away from US doesn't address the definition of evil - it masks it and confuses the solution.

The solution is REPENTANCE according to the LAW of God.
The solution is to humbly approach the throne of God with the sacrifice He has provided.
The solution is to ADMIT TO GOD AND OURSELVES that WE are evil and to ask forgiveness for our SIN.
The solution MAY be to receive a new life that denies evil in all its forms; WAR, CRIME, CRUELTY, SLAVERY and all the SINs listed in God's LAW.

Evil is that condition that arises as a result of personal SIN.

EVIL is NOT a theory or a problem. IT IS the result of SIN. Its consequence is DEATH.

Is death a problem for you?

You tell me.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Hi CL

I did read the entire post.
You sure did write a lot about something I totally agree with.

There is nothing you've written with which I disagree. What I did in my last post was to broaden what evil means in the biblical sense.

Think about what causes misery:
Ourselves
Others
Nature

By nature I mean sickness.
Some of us are anemic through no fault of our own.
Some of us get cancer through no fault of our own. Yes, even non-smokers get lung cancer for instance.
Etc.

Did Adam have a pleasant relationship with nature and animals before the fall?
Was this relationship changed after the fall?
Why?
Had only he changed, or also nature, including the soil he had to sow and the animal kingdom?
 

choir loft

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Hi CL

I did read the entire post.
You sure did write a lot about something I totally agree with.

There is nothing you've written with which I disagree. What I did in my last post was to broaden what evil means in the biblical sense.

Think about what causes misery:
Ourselves
Others
Nature

By nature I mean sickness.
Some of us are anemic through no fault of our own.
Some of us get cancer through no fault of our own. Yes, even non-smokers get lung cancer for instance.
Etc.

Did Adam have a pleasant relationship with nature and animals before the fall?
Was this relationship changed after the fall?
Why?
Had only he changed, or also nature, including the soil he had to sow and the animal kingdom?

It is SIN that results in evil.

Misery is not necessarily caused by SIN. Read the book of Job. That fellow didn't SIN, yet God visited upon him a great deal of misery the purpose of which was NOT to promote patience on the part of the sufferer.

Masking SIN in a cloak of excuses does not remove its effect. It does confuse the source of evil and our personal responsibility for promoting it in the world.

The Bible is very explicit about the source of evil. It is SIN.
Broadening our approach to it only serves the interests of the devils kingdom to promote it.

Taking a long hard look at SIN sometimes results in REPENTANCE - the only true broad view possible.

I'm glad we are in agreement.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

wondering

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It is SIN that results in evil.

Misery is not necessarily caused by SIN. Read the book of Job. That fellow didn't SIN, yet God visited upon him a great deal of misery the purpose of which was NOT to promote patience on the part of the sufferer.

Masking SIN in a cloak of excuses does not remove its effect. It does confuse the source of evil and our personal responsibility for promoting it in the world.

The Bible is very explicit about the source of evil. It is SIN.
Broadening our approach to it only serves the interests of the devils kingdom to promote it.

Taking a long hard look at SIN sometimes results in REPENTANCE - the only true broad view possible.

I'm glad we are in agreement.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You know that we could go on forever....

Is the source of evil sin,
or is the source of sin evil ?

And whatever the answer is...
where did it come from, where did it start?
 

choir loft

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You know that we could go on forever....

Is the source of evil sin,
or is the source of sin evil ?

And whatever the answer is...
where did it come from, where did it start?

Did you miss something I wrote about this? Please read Genesis 3.

That book and chapter explains where evil came from. It came from Eve and Adam and their desire to disobey God - to SIN. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. SIN came first. Evil is the expression or consequence of SIN.

Look up the definition of evil in the dictionary. You'll find its described as "1. morally reprehensible or 2. that which arises from bad character or conduct" In other words, evil comes from US, from humanity itself. We create it by SINNING against God and each other. We are not the noble angelic creatures we like to tell ourselves we are. The human heart is incredibly wicked. We make war upon one another and entertain ourselves with violence and death. The only thing good about us is that we die and leave the continued destruction of the world to another generation.

The authority enjoyed by satan was given to it by US, by Eve and Adam and by you and I. The devil, the opposer, had none of its own when it fell to earth. By the time of Christ the accumulated authority of evil granted to it by humanity was immense.

"Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. “I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory,” he said. “For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish. So if You worship me, it will all be Yours.” - Luke 4:5-7

The passage from Luke tells us that the devil had NO authority of its own. The authority it commanded had been relinquished to it by humanity. The evil we know is of our own creation. If we continue to disobey God we can expect the whirlwinds of misfortune to continue to assail us - as a result of the works of our own hands.

Here is a mystery. The devil cannot make us SIN. It tempts us according to our passions and it entices us to do that which God forbids. This is how evil comes into the world. It comes from us as we yield our God given authority to the tempter, to the devil. The blessing of the Second Birth is a gift from God to turn from SIN and to do those works which grant authority to Christ in us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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wondering

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Did you miss something I wrote about this? Please read Genesis 3.

That book and chapter explains where evil came from. It came from Eve and Adam and their desire to disobey God - to SIN. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. SIN came first. Evil is the expression or consequence of SIN.

Look up the definition of evil in the dictionary. You'll find its described as "1. morally reprehensible or 2. that which arises from bad character or conduct" In other words, evil comes from US, from humanity itself. We create it by SINNING against God and each other. We are not the noble angelic creatures we like to tell ourselves we are. The human heart is incredibly wicked. We make war upon one another and entertain ourselves with violence and death. The only thing good about us is that we die and leave the continued destruction of the world to another generation.

The authority enjoyed by satan was given to it by US, by Eve and Adam and by you and I. The devil, the opposer, had none of its own when it fell to earth. By the time of Christ the accumulated authority of evil granted to it by humanity was immense.

"Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. “I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory,” he said. “For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish. So if You worship me, it will all be Yours.” - Luke 4:5-7

The passage from Luke tells us that the devil had NO authority of its own. The authority it commanded had been relinquished to it by humanity. The evil we know is of our own creation. If we continue to disobey God we can expect the whirlwinds of misfortune to continue to assail us - as a result of the works of our own hands.

Here is a mystery. The devil cannot make us SIN. It tempts us according to our passions and it entices us to do that which God forbids. This is how evil comes into the world. It comes from us as we yield our God given authority to the tempter, to the devil. The blessing of the Second Birth is a gift from God to turn from SIN and to do those works which grant authority to Christ in us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Sin came first?
So evil caused them to sin?

Was the sin nature present in Adam and Eve before they sinned?

No.

So what made them sin?

Satan.

And why did satan fail as an angel?
Do Angel's have the sin nature?
No.
So what made them to fall?
 

choir loft

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Sin came first?
So evil caused them to sin?

Was the sin nature present in Adam and Eve before they sinned?

No.

So what made them sin?

Satan.

And why did satan fail as an angel?
Do Angel's have the sin nature?
No.
So what made them to fall?

READ GENESIS chapter 3.

This is the garden story of the fall of humanity, of the choice made by Eve and Adam to SIN and of the evil they caused when they did so. Read the story and learn from the progression of acts and events which followed.

SIN is disobedience of God's will. SIN causes evil. Evil is the symptom of SIN as a sneeze is a symptom of a cold. Evil is the consequence of SIN.

Current statements addressing a SIN nature causing evil generally address doctrines promoted by the RCC and Calvinists. They do NOT represent the context of scripture, which declares that mankind has a choice - proclivities notwithstanding. I have over-generalized here and in fact there are exceptions to my assertion, but you'll have to study to find them as I won't reveal them to you at this time. (1 Tim 2:15) I fear the additional information will be too difficult for you to understand as Paul once wrote. (1 Corinthians 3:2)

Eve and Adam chose to disobey God because they were tempted to do so by the opposer, the serpent tempter. Read Genesis 3. It was NOT God's intent that this happen, but it was the tempter's purpose to subvert it. The devil cannot MAKE anyone SIN. We choose to do so or not. Moses as well as the apostles said it is possible to NOT SIN. Religions, whose primary task is to separate gullible congregations from their money, often make use of guilt which is a tool of the devil - not God. How strange that our godless churches assert power and authority they do not have.

If the reader wants to know the cause of Lucifer's fall from its blessed condition I suggest that you READ THE BIBLE instead of relying upon secular myths, movies and illiterate religious opinion.

IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

If you believe this to be true, then I'd advise you to not attempt to speak to a grieving mother who has lost her child. SIN is defined by the LAW of Moses. Can a new born child be accused of murder, of theft, of lying or of adultery? If not then a child is without guilt and is blessed of God. Only those who SIN according to the LAW are guilty.

SIN is associated with an ACT not a presumption.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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choir loft

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READ GENESIS chapter 3.

This is the garden story of the fall of humanity, of the choice made by Eve and Adam to SIN and of the evil they caused when they did so. Read the story and learn from the progression of acts and events which followed.

SIN is disobedience of God's will. SIN causes evil. Evil is the symptom of SIN as a sneeze is a symptom of a cold. Evil is the consequence of SIN.

Current statements addressing a SIN nature causing evil generally address doctrines promoted by the RCC and Calvinists. They do NOT represent the context of scripture, which declares that mankind has a choice - proclivities notwithstanding. I have over-generalized here and in fact there are exceptions to my assertion, but you'll have to study to find them as I won't reveal them to you at this time. (1 Tim 2:15) I fear the additional information will be too difficult for you to understand as Paul once wrote. (1 Corinthians 3:2)

Eve and Adam chose to disobey God because they were tempted to do so by the opposer, the serpent tempter. Read Genesis 3. It was NOT God's intent that this happen, but it was the tempter's purpose to subvert it. The devil cannot MAKE anyone SIN. We choose to do so or not. Moses as well as the apostles said it is possible to NOT SIN. Religions, whose primary task is to separate gullible congregations from their money, often make use of guilt which is a tool of the devil - not God. How strange that our godless churches assert power and authority they do not have.

If the reader wants to know the cause of Lucifer's fall from its blessed condition I suggest that you READ THE BIBLE instead of relying upon secular myths, movies and illiterate religious opinion.

IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

If you believe this to be true, then I'd advise you to not attempt to speak to a grieving mother who has lost her child. SIN is defined by the LAW of Moses. Can a new born child be accused of murder, of theft, of lying or of adultery? If not then a child is without guilt and is blessed of God. Only those who SIN according to the LAW are guilty.

SIN is associated with an ACT not a presumption.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Reference to 1 Timothy is erroneous. I meant to quote 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to show yourself approved".

My apologies.

CL
 

wondering

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READ GENESIS chapter 3.

This is the garden story of the fall of humanity, of the choice made by Eve and Adam to SIN and of the evil they caused when they did so. Read the story and learn from the progression of acts and events which followed.

SIN is disobedience of God's will. SIN causes evil. Evil is the symptom of SIN as a sneeze is a symptom of a cold. Evil is the consequence of SIN.

Current statements addressing a SIN nature causing evil generally address doctrines promoted by the RCC and Calvinists. They do NOT represent the context of scripture, which declares that mankind has a choice - proclivities notwithstanding. I have over-generalized here and in fact there are exceptions to my assertion, but you'll have to study to find them as I won't reveal them to you at this time. (1 Tim 2:15) I fear the additional information will be too difficult for you to understand as Paul once wrote. (1 Corinthians 3:2)

Eve and Adam chose to disobey God because they were tempted to do so by the opposer, the serpent tempter. Read Genesis 3. It was NOT God's intent that this happen, but it was the tempter's purpose to subvert it. The devil cannot MAKE anyone SIN. We choose to do so or not. Moses as well as the apostles said it is possible to NOT SIN. Religions, whose primary task is to separate gullible congregations from their money, often make use of guilt which is a tool of the devil - not God. How strange that our godless churches assert power and authority they do not have.

If the reader wants to know the cause of Lucifer's fall from its blessed condition I suggest that you READ THE BIBLE instead of relying upon secular myths, movies and illiterate religious opinion.

IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE BORN HUMAN.

If you believe this to be true, then I'd advise you to not attempt to speak to a grieving mother who has lost her child. SIN is defined by the LAW of Moses. Can a new born child be accused of murder, of theft, of lying or of adultery? If not then a child is without guilt and is blessed of God. Only those who SIN according to the LAW are guilty.

SIN is associated with an ACT not a presumption.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Choir Loft
You keep telling me to read Genesis 3. What makes you think I haven't?

You also tell me I'm not going to understand something or other and that I've been pretty much brainwashed by either the Catholic Church
or Calvinism---quite a jump BTW.

Mankind has a choice.
Did I say they don't?

So you can't explain why Lucifer fell and I rely on MYTHS.
Which is rather interesting since I don't really know any myths.

You over-generalize because the rest of us are too dumb to have a real conversation with you.

BUT
You haven't answered my basic question:
WHAT CAUSES EVIL?
HOW DID ADAM AND EVE SIN IF THE THEY WERE "PURE"?

You say sin CAUSES EVIL....
It seems to me that satan appeared BEFORE they sinned.

We don't really need to continue this conversation since I might not understand your position.
 
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