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[__ Science __ ] The Fall and the Problem of Millions of Years of Natural Evil

wondering

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Reference to 1 Timothy is erroneous. I meant to quote 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to show yourself approved".

My apologies.

CL
Study to show myself approved.
Oh my.

BTW....
Did I say that newborn babies are guilty of sin?

You must be getting me mixed up with some other Christian person.
 

choir loft

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I don't see that the revised versions are as effective as those closer to the original.

Our concept of evil is not the same as the Biblical concept, which included much more than wickedness.

Revised versions of today are indeed closer to original Greek & Hebrew than KJV. The old English version was published in 1611 during the protestant reformation and contained numerous phrases and references used by the Vatican in the Vulgate.

That being considered, many modern English translations STILL contain erroneous references to RCC doctrine. One popular published work is the Scofield Reference Bible. Its chain references are designed to teach Roman Catholic doctrine originally formulated by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera called FUTURISM.

For instance, KJV references to Hades are incorrect. Hades was the Greek god of the underworld who guarded the boundary between the living and the dead. Hades was a person not a place (hell) as is assumed by Christians because of the error in translation. Even the word Hell is based upon pagan Anglo-Saxon myths of the underworld. In that myth the place was called HEL - with one letter L. Biblical context never references hell, but instead speaks of SHEOL (Hebrew name for "grave") and the Second Death. There is no such thing as eternal torment mentioned anywhere, but misconceptions due to the influence of Greek culture in the inter-testimental period causes translational errors when converting to English.

I can go on and on about this. Instead I recommend the reader who wishes to contest my assertions do their own research. Differences in meanings will not cause one to lose faith in God or His promises for us. They may, however, encourage a greater understanding and appreciation of His Word.

2 Tim 2:15

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

choir loft

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Study to show myself approved.
Oh my.

BTW....
Did I say that newborn babies are guilty of sin?

You must be getting me mixed up with some other Christian person.

The fatalistic dogmas of Original Sin and Calvinistic Predestination lead one to conclusions the Bible does not support.

Whether you actually wrote that babies are SINNERS or not is irrelevant. Most Christians accept it without consideration. The Bible nowhere supports the guilt of children, but the doctrine of Original Sin insists upon it.

Have you ever wondered why Christians baptize their babies?

The ceremony is meant to cleanse them of SIN. A few religious slogans are uttered during the ceremony and prestO changeO the kid is saved. He or she isn't if the Bible is considered, but few challenge the ceremony (as they fork over a few dollars to the presiding priest or pastor).

What is the meaning of baptism? Read the gospels and find out. Baptism has dual connotations. Primarily it signifies REPENTANCE. It's secondary meaning is demonstration to the world that the baptized person has repented of SIN and joined with Christ as a new person.

Can someone tell me exactly how a newborn baby can repent of SIN it hasn't committed? I'd like to see that trick.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

choir loft

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Choir Loft
You keep telling me to read Genesis 3. What makes you think I haven't?

You also tell me I'm not going to understand something or other and that I've been pretty much brainwashed by either the Catholic Church
or Calvinism---quite a jump BTW.

Mankind has a choice.
Did I say they don't?

So you can't explain why Lucifer fell and I rely on MYTHS.
Which is rather interesting since I don't really know any myths.

You over-generalize because the rest of us are too dumb to have a real conversation with you.

BUT
You haven't answered my basic question:
WHAT CAUSES EVIL?
HOW DID ADAM AND EVE SIN IF THE THEY WERE "PURE"?

You say sin CAUSES EVIL....
It seems to me that satan appeared BEFORE they sinned.

We don't really need to continue this conversation since I might not understand your position.
You may have read Genesis 3, but you seem to be too busy accusing me of something rather than considering anything written in that book and chapter.

I'm trying to help here. Please consider the obvious Biblical definitions of SIN and EVIL rather than confusion created by philosophers apologists and preachers who have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

Predilections to pagan myths promoted by the RCC and accepted by the American Protestant church, which marches in lock step with the Vatican, cloud a clear understanding of God's Word. I perceive your difficulty with my explanations are due to answers not in agreement with Vatican doctrine. Nevertheless I will attempt to do so again.

SIN is an action which DELIBERATELY contradicts the revealed Will of God - God's LAW.

In Genesis 3 God told Eve and Adam to NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of Opinion (knowledge of good and evil is 'opinion'). To eat of it is to put one's OPINION on a higher level of authority than God's Word or LAW. Eve SINNED first when she was tempted by the opposer/snake/devil. Eve then seduced her husband Adam to follow her into SIN.

As a consequence of disobedience/SIN, God cursed the couple. They knew what they were doing (SIN) because God had spoken to them prior to their action. His Will was already established in their minds.

The action came first. It's called SIN.
God's curse followed the act. Thus the curse is called EVIL.

Evil is thus the consequence of SIN. Evil follows SIN as night follows day. Why is this difficult to understand? Read Genesis 3 and you'll see the progression of ideas and actions and how they relate to each other.

Initially Eve and Adam were autonomous in their actions. You use the word 'pure', which is a reference to SIN or the lack of it. It's much more than purity my friend - much more. One might be more accurate to substitute the word guilt for purity. Either way it falls short of the situation in Eden prior to the fall.

To be autonomous is to be without restriction or handicap in anything one thinks or does. In other words, Eve and Adam had no predilections to SIN -or- to righteousness. It may also be noted they had no understanding of LOVE either - of LOVE as the Bible teaches it. The Bible also suggests Eve and Adam didn't have a basic understanding of sex either, but that's a different subject for discussion.

As the consequence of SIN is EVIL, so too does the curse of EVIL follow the generations of Eve and Adam. All who are born to the race of Adam have lost their autonomy of choice. In other words, we have become "slaves of SIN" (Romans 6:20), victims of the circumstances of our own wickedness. Humanity continues to be able to to choose the right, but more often than not is self-destructive. The autonomy once enjoyed by the inhabitants of Eden can never be restored - EVER.

It's like toothpaste or a broken egg. Once released from its container it can never be restored.

Why the fascination with Lucifer? The creature fell from grace because of its pride in itself. That's the Biblical version. What more does one need to know? Human pride opposes God and our fellow man - in the likeness of Satan do we live and breath. It's impossible for humanity to escape the trap it has made for itself.

Enter the LAW as given by God.
Enter the savior of mankind as required by the LAW.
Enter a semi-autonomous Christ inspired life by the LAW.
Enter escape from SIN as enabled by the LAW.

Apart from the LAW no one can be saved. Moses said it is possible to live by it and St. Paul wrote that those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.

Unfortunately most people are too proud to humble themselves unto God who gives Christ for our Eternal blessing to those who forsake their OPINION and obey the LAW. It is the gift of Grace that enables this lawful obedience, yet the modern church denies it completely. To them the Holy Spirit is little more than a divine cheer leader. A spiritual high is sought in church rather than spiritual responsibility. Thus the consequences of SIN executes doom upon the church today. (1 Peter 4:17 & 1 Sam 4:21)

Hope this clears the air on a few matters.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Barbarian

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Apart from the LAW no one can be saved. Moses said it is possible to live by it and St. Paul wrote that those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.

Well, let's take a look...

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Natural law is that which is given to all men. And those who are not Christians are judged by that law, as Paul says.
 

choir loft

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Well, let's take a look...

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Natural law is that which is given to all men. And those who are not Christians are judged by that law, as Paul says.
Christians are judged by the LAW as given by God. We are never excused from it nor has it been abolished for us or anyone else (Matt 5:17). The LAW still stands.

Since you have expressed interest in the LAW, let's have a look at it - Biblically. Here's a thumbnail sketch. There's a lot more to it and more study is certainly required for a detailed understanding. Be that as it may, let's take a look.

What is generally referred to as 'natural law' has also been called the Royal Law or the Law of Moses. Humanity generally accepts that murder is wrong as well as stealing lying and adultery, yet wars and thievery and all the rest continue. Apparently our collective belief in 'natural law' only goes so far. We ignore it when it suits us.

Humanity generally DOES NOT accept that the 'natural law' justifies anyone in the eyes of God or gods. Quite the opposite, in fact. As any psychiatrist worthy of his title can tell you, it establishes guilt.

The great question before humanity is how guilt can be expunged.

All religions on the planet in all of human history have attempted to remove guilt by various forms of justification. Generally speaking these forms of self-justification rely on some form of behavior, gifts or sacrifices of both humans and animals and resources. Unfortunately none of this stuff works. The gods are silent and the guilt remains - BY THE LAW.

The LAW of God provides a way to escape the consequences of SIN - that which deserves the anger and malice of the Almighty. The LAW provides a way for humans to be justified, to be washed clean of guilt. But like all things there's a caveat to the LAW. One simply cannot exercise it to be guiltless. Something else is needed.

The LAW points to God and tells us that we must accept God Himself in our innermost being - in our hearts and minds - TO THE BONE. In exchange God promises to do that which we cannot - to remove our guilt, to heal us of it, to forget we ever sinned. But God goes a step further. God provides His own nature to those who accept it - a nature that knows HOW TO KEEP THE LAW. Thus the LAW lives in the hearts of those who accept the Father, written on tablets of flesh rather than tablets of stone. The Bible calls this enabling - GRACE.

Think of the relationship between LAW and GRACE like a bathroom sink and mirror.
The mirror shows us that our faces are dirty. The LAW reveals our SIN.
But neither mirror nor law can wash away the dirt - the SIN.
The mirror reveals to us that we need to use soap and water to clean ourselves.
The water of REPENTANCE combines with the life blood of Christ as a soap to cleanse us of SIN.


The LAW tells us that this is the procedure to identify SIN and to cleanse of guilt. The LAW doesn't do it, Christ does. Once saved, GRACE provides the inspiration for the saved person to live according to the LAW. We are saved FOR good works, not by them.

There is a great deal more to this than my simplistic explanation. Nevertheless I hope it provides some illumination as to the need for LAW both before during and after one encounters the living Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

PS
“Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ - Ezekiel 33:12

The LAW does not excuse anyone from the punishment for SIN. Neither does GRACE subvert the LAW in allowing SIN to continue. Although the Second Birth cannot be revoked (God's promises cannot be undone - even by God), God retains the authority to punish SIN in the life of the believer. Thus a great caution remains for us all to know and follow the LAW. (1 Peter 4:17)
 
Last edited:

Barbarian

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Christians are judged by the LAW as given by God. We are never excused from it nor has it been abolished for us or anyone else (Matt 5:17). The LAW still stands.
And as Paul says, non-Christians are judged by natural law, given by God.
What is generally referred to as 'natural law' has also been called the Royal Law or the Law of Moses. Humanity generally accepts that murder is wrong as well as stealing lying and adultery, yet wars and thievery and all the rest continue. Apparently our collective belief in 'natural law' only goes so far. We ignore it when it suits us.
Pretty much like the other sorts of law. Doesn't mean that the law is wrong.
Humanity generally DOES NOT accept that the 'natural law' justifies anyone in the eyes of God or gods.
God does. And that's good enough.
All religions on the planet in all of human history have attempted to remove guilt by various forms of justification.
But Paul was inspired by God to make that point. So I'm pretty sure he has it right.
We are saved FOR good works, not by them.
Well, let's look at that assumption...
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I prefer God's way, Sorry.
 

wondering

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And as Paul says, non-Christians are judged by natural law, given by God.

Pretty much like the other sorts of law. Doesn't mean that the law is wrong.

God does. And that's good enough.

But Paul was inspired by God to make that point. So I'm pretty sure he has it right.

Well, let's look at that assumption...
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I prefer God's way, Sorry.
I give you John 5:28 and Matthew 7:23
 

Barbarian

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Can the evolutionist view of the history of natural evil be harmonized with the Bible’s apparent teaching that all of this evil is the consequence of the Fall?

Actually it doesn't say that. In fact...

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
 

wondering

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You may have read Genesis 3, but you seem to be too busy accusing me of something rather than considering anything written in that book and chapter.

I don't think I've accused you of anything.
I've considered everything you write...if I didn't care, I wouldn't respond to you.

I'm trying to help here. Please consider the obvious Biblical definitions of SIN and EVIL rather than confusion created by philosophers apologists and preachers who have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

I know what sin is.
I know what evil is.
I'd venture to say that 98% of everyone of this forum will know the difference.


Predilections to pagan myths promoted by the RCC and accepted by the American Protestant church, which marches in lock step with the Vatican, cloud a clear understanding of God's Word. I perceive your difficulty with my explanations are due to answers not in agreement with Vatican doctrine. Nevertheless I will attempt to do so again.

SIN is an action which DELIBERATELY contradicts the revealed Will of God - God's LAW.

OK. I don't know what the Vatican has to do with our conversation,,,but onward we go.
Agreed as to what sin is.

In Genesis 3 God told Eve and Adam to NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of Opinion (knowledge of good and evil is 'opinion'). To eat of it is to put one's OPINION on a higher level of authority than God's Word or LAW. Eve SINNED first when she was tempted by the opposer/snake/devil. Eve then seduced her husband Adam to follow her into SIN.

Won't get into your idea of OPINION,,,
but OK. Agreed on the above.

As a consequence of disobedience/SIN, God cursed the couple. They knew what they were doing (SIN) because God had spoken to them prior to their action. His Will was already established in their minds.

The action came first. It's called SIN.
God's curse followed the act. Thus the curse is called EVIL.

Right.
But you do miss my question to YOU.
What CAUSED Eve to sin?
Does sin cause evil, or does evil cause sin?
WHY did Eve sin?
If all she knew was good, so far, why did she sin?

Evil is thus the consequence of SIN. Evil follows SIN as night follows day. Why is this difficult to understand? Read Genesis 3 and you'll see the progression of ideas and actions and how they relate to each other.

Initially Eve and Adam were autonomous in their actions. You use the word 'pure', which is a reference to SIN or the lack of it. It's much more than purity my friend - much more. One might be more accurate to substitute the word guilt for purity. Either way it falls short of the situation in Eden prior to the fall.

If Adam and Eve were pure, and even more according to your statement above...
I repeat: What made them sin?
How does a pure creature sin?
To be autonomous is to be without restriction or handicap in anything one thinks or does. In other words, Eve and Adam had no predilections to SIN -or- to righteousness. It may also be noted they had no understanding of LOVE either - of LOVE as the Bible teaches it. The Bible also suggests Eve and Adam didn't have a basic understanding of sex either, but that's a different subject for discussion.

Right again...
So what made them sin?

As the consequence of SIN is EVIL, so too does the curse of EVIL follow the generations of Eve and Adam. All who are born to the race of Adam have lost their autonomy of choice. In other words, we have become "slaves of SIN" (Romans 6:20), victims of the circumstances of our own wickedness. Humanity continues to be able to to choose the right, but more often than not is self-destructive. The autonomy once enjoyed by the inhabitants of Eden can never be restored - EVER.

Agreed.
Except I proffer that EVIL CAUSED SIN.
Satan, being evil, convinced Eve to sin.
EVIL ALREADY EXISTED.
Evil is what tempted sin.
Evil is what tempts all of us.

It's like toothpaste or a broken egg. Once released from its container it can never be restored.

Why the fascination with Lucifer? The creature fell from grace because of its pride in itself. That's the Biblical version. What more does one need to know? Human pride opposes God and our fellow man - in the likeness of Satan do we live and breath. It's impossible for humanity to escape the trap it has made for itself.

I don't speak too much about Lucifer.
My point may have been that he too sinned...
and this was before Adam and Eve.
My question might have been, WHAT made Lucifer disobey God?

Enter the LAW as given by God.
Enter the savior of mankind as required by the LAW.
Enter a semi-autonomous Christ inspired life by the LAW.
Enter escape from SIN as enabled by the LAW.

Apart from the LAW no one can be saved. Moses said it is possible to live by it and St. Paul wrote that those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.

Unfortunately most people are too proud to humble themselves unto God who gives Christ for our Eternal blessing to those who forsake their OPINION and obey the LAW. It is the gift of Grace that enables this lawful obedience, yet the modern church denies it completely. To them the Holy Spirit is little more than a divine cheer leader. A spiritual high is sought in church rather than spiritual responsibility. Thus the consequences of SIN executes doom upon the church today. (1 Peter 4:17 & 1 Sam 4:21)

Hope this clears the air on a few matters.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Maybe you could answer the all-important question:
What caused evil?
And if your reply is SIN,,,then this conversation can stop right now because You're Not Going Back Far Enough.
 

jaybo

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Christians are judged by the LAW as given by God. We are never excused from it nor has it been abolished for us or anyone else (Matt 5:17). The LAW still stands.

Since you have expressed interest in the LAW, let's have a look at it - Biblically. Here's a thumbnail sketch. There's a lot more to it and more study is certainly required for a detailed understanding. Be that as it may, let's take a look.

What is generally referred to as 'natural law' has also been called the Royal Law or the Law of Moses. Humanity generally accepts that murder is wrong as well as stealing lying and adultery, yet wars and thievery and all the rest continue. Apparently our collective belief in 'natural law' only goes so far. We ignore it when it suits us.

Humanity generally DOES NOT accept that the 'natural law' justifies anyone in the eyes of God or gods. Quite the opposite, in fact. As any psychiatrist worthy of his title can tell you, it establishes guilt.

The great question before humanity is how guilt can be expunged.

All religions on the planet in all of human history have attempted to remove guilt by various forms of justification. Generally speaking these forms of self-justification rely on some form of behavior, gifts or sacrifices of both humans and animals and resources. Unfortunately none of this stuff works. The gods are silent and the guilt remains - BY THE LAW.

The LAW of God provides a way to escape the consequences of SIN - that which deserves the anger and malice of the Almighty. The LAW provides a way for humans to be justified, to be washed clean of guilt. But like all things there's a caveat to the LAW. One simply cannot exercise it to be guiltless. Something else is needed.

The LAW points to God and tells us that we must accept God Himself in our innermost being - in our hearts and minds - TO THE BONE. In exchange God promises to do that which we cannot - to remove our guilt, to heal us of it, to forget we ever sinned. But God goes a step further. God provides His own nature to those who accept it - a nature that knows HOW TO KEEP THE LAW. Thus the LAW lives in the hearts of those who accept the Father, written on tablets of flesh rather than tablets of stone. The Bible calls this enabling - GRACE.

Think of the relationship between LAW and GRACE like a bathroom sink and mirror.
The mirror shows us that our faces are dirty. The LAW reveals our SIN.
But neither mirror nor law can wash away the dirt - the SIN.
The mirror reveals to us that we need to use soap and water to clean ourselves.
The water of REPENTANCE combines with the life blood of Christ as a soap to cleanse us of SIN.


The LAW tells us that this is the procedure to identify SIN and to cleanse of guilt. The LAW doesn't do it, Christ does. Once saved, GRACE provides the inspiration for the saved person to live according to the LAW. We are saved FOR good works, not by them.

There is a great deal more to this than my simplistic explanation. Nevertheless I hope it provides some illumination as to the need for LAW both before during and after one encounters the living Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

PS
“Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ - Ezekiel 33:12

The LAW does not excuse anyone from the punishment for SIN. Neither does GRACE subvert the LAW in allowing SIN to continue. Although the Second Birth cannot be revoked (God's promises cannot be undone - even by God), God retains the authority to punish SIN in the life of the believer. Thus a great caution remains for us all to know and follow the LAW. (1 Peter 4:17)
Have you forgotten what Romans 7:4 clearly says? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

The quote from Matthew that you cite was not spoken to Christians. You're either under the law or you're under grace. You can't be subject to both. Trying to apply the OT law to Christians is denying the primary message of the New Covenant.
 

jaybo

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Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit after his resurrection, saying beforehand, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come." John 16:13

Adam, Eve, and the story of the orchard of Eden is interesting and instructive but it's part of the Old Covenant. Christians are born into a new life of living hope. We are not to "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" but to have faith in God.
 

wondering

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Have you forgotten what Romans 7:4 clearly says? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

The quote from Matthew that you cite was not spoken to Christians. You're either under the law or you're under grace. You can't be subject to both. Trying to apply the OT law to Christians is denying the primary message of the New Covenant.
What is the message of the New Covenant?
Does it state that we are not to follow the laws of God?
 

wondering

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Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit after his resurrection, saying beforehand, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come." John 16:13

Adam, Eve, and the story of the orchard of Eden is interesting and instructive but it's part of the Old Covenant. Christians are born into a new life of living hope. We are not to "eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" but to have faith in God.
1. We already ate from the tree.
Too Late...

2. Man was always saved by faith.
So what's the difference with the New Covenant?
 

jaybo

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What is the message of the New Covenant?
Does it state that we are not to follow the laws of God?
It states that the Holy Spirit will guide us (internally). Christians no longer need the Old Covenant law, which guides the unsaved (externally).

Again, Romans 7:4 clearly says? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."
 

choir loft

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Have you forgotten what Romans 7:4 clearly says? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

The quote from Matthew that you cite was not spoken to Christians. You're either under the law or you're under grace. You can't be subject to both. Trying to apply the OT law to Christians is denying the primary message of the New Covenant.
You protest because you know not the LAW. Neither do you respect it or understand its purpose.

When Paul writes that those who are justified in Christ have "died to the LAW" he is stating that the punishment for SIN has been removed. We are indeed dead to the judgment God's LAW requires. Why? Because Christ has fulfilled THAT PORTION of the LAW which requires sacrifice for SIN. We are by no means excused from keeping the righteousness the LAW demands and we are by no means excused from the consequences of violating it EVEN THOUGH Christ be in us. As Paul writes in Romans 2:12, "he who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW."

GRACE does NOT subvert or replace the LAW. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, "I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

What is the purpose of the LAW? The purpose of the LAW is to convict of SIN before and during one's surrender to Christ as Lord and Master and King.

Here is a mystery for those who believe LAW and GRACE are separate. They are not for they work together unto righteousness in the lives of those who call Christ their KING and savior.

SHAVUOT is a festival observed by Jews as the time when God gave the LAW to Moses.
PENTACOST is a festival observed by Disciples of Christ as that time when God bestowed His GRACE by the Holy Spirit.

BOTH OBSERVANCES FALL ON THE SAME CALENDAR DAY - 50 days after Passover/Easter.

Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something important about LAW & GRACE?

I submit that the true follower of Christ will understand that LAW & GRACE work together. One does not replace the other and both work unto redemption.

Those who prefer to continue in their anti-semitic attitudes toward the work of God in the LAW will find themselves struggling against the Holy Spirit in their lives.

In these days of lawLESSness we see rejection of the authority of both God and man in our nation. (1 Peter 4:17) America is ripe for punishment and God will not delay His wrath. We are no longer circling the drain of history. We are IN IT.

Be advised it is time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness so as to avail ourselves of the mercies of God. Those that do not, falsely supposing grace will allow them license to SIN, will find themselves caught up in the judgment upon us.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Which part of the LAW is evil? Which part is deserving of rejection? If we follow Christ will He not lead us in the ways of LAW so as to profit by them and receive blessings from both God and man?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

jaybo

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And that's me listening from the pew. We obviously disagree, so I won't discuss the subject with you any further. If you don't understand the OT law and its function then I can't help you. I'm under grace not under law because I am in Christ, a new creation. If you want to mix the New Covenant and the Old Covenant you are in serious error.
 

wondering

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You protest because you know not the LAW. Neither do you respect it or understand its purpose.

When Paul writes that those who are justified in Christ have "died to the LAW" he is stating that the punishment for SIN has been removed. We are indeed dead to the judgment God's LAW requires. Why? Because Christ has fulfilled THAT PORTION of the LAW which requires sacrifice for SIN. We are by no means excused from keeping the righteousness the LAW demands and we are by no means excused from the consequences of violating it EVEN THOUGH Christ be in us. As Paul writes in Romans 2:12, "he who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW."

GRACE does NOT subvert or replace the LAW. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, "I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

What is the purpose of the LAW? The purpose of the LAW is to convict of SIN before and during one's surrender to Christ as Lord and Master and King.

Here is a mystery for those who believe LAW and GRACE are separate. They are not for they work together unto righteousness in the lives of those who call Christ their KING and savior.

SHAVUOT is a festival observed by Jews as the time when God gave the LAW to Moses.
PENTACOST is a festival observed by Disciples of Christ as that time when God bestowed His GRACE by the Holy Spirit.

BOTH OBSERVANCES FALL ON THE SAME CALENDAR DAY - 50 days after Passover/Easter.

Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something important about LAW & GRACE?

I submit that the true follower of Christ will understand that LAW & GRACE work together. One does not replace the other and both work unto redemption.

Those who prefer to continue in their anti-semitic attitudes toward the work of God in the LAW will find themselves struggling against the Holy Spirit in their lives.

In these days of lawLESSness we see rejection of the authority of both God and man in our nation. (1 Peter 4:17) America is ripe for punishment and God will not delay His wrath. We are no longer circling the drain of history. We are IN IT.

Be advised it is time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness so as to avail ourselves of the mercies of God. Those that do not, falsely supposing grace will allow them license to SIN, will find themselves caught up in the judgment upon us.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Which part of the LAW is evil? Which part is deserving of rejection? If we follow Christ will He not lead us in the ways of LAW so as to profit by them and receive blessings from both God and man?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I do believe I agree with you from what you've written above,
but I have two questions:

1. What IS the Law?

2. Could you please explain what you wrote above, highlighted by me?
" As Paul writes in Romans 2:12, "he who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." "

I think you might have written it backwards...
 

jaybo

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I do believe I agree with you from what you've written above,
but I have two questions:

1. What IS the Law?

2. Could you please explain what you wrote above, highlighted by me?
" As Paul writes in Romans 2:12, "he who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." "

I think you might have written it backwards...
Romans 2:12, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." NIV
 

wondering

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Romans 2:12, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." NIV
Thanks jaybo...
but I know what Romans 2 says...
I need an answer from the other poster to clarify something.
 
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