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[__ Science __ ] The Fall and the Problem of Millions of Years of Natural Evil

choir loft

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You wrote, "In actuality, it supports a red hot publishing trade that sucks millions of dollars from the pockets of college students who only want to learn the truth of things." Yeah, better be on guard against those greedy textbook publishers who supply schoolbooks to everyone from kindergarten through graduate school.

Seriously??

Yes, dead serious.

Until retirement, I worked in the employment of a local State College in the computer department. Private conversations with instructors in other disciplines illuminated me as to the severity of the problem.

Do you work for a college? Are you unaware of the problem? If you don't believe me, then go to your own local college and interview several instructors for yourself. You will learn the same things I relate here. Google the subject.....PLEASE.

Textbook publishers deliberately alter the layout of textbooks. Sometimes its as simple as shifting chapters around. For instance, in one year chapter 6 might come after chapter 5. The next year the information in chapter six might appear after chapter 10. This prevents students from selling their old textbooks to new students so as to obtain money to defray textbook purchases for the next term (or to supply beer money).

In the same way, the internal subject matter and accompanying illustrations, are altered from year to year so as to promote sales of the new volume. In recent years, textbook sales have migrated to digital media which makes it nearly impossible to pass along the text to newer students or to even recover a modicum of the expense.

A chemistry professor once told me she believed the textbook publishers are attempting to rewrite the PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS. This sounded ludicrous to me, but she assured me they were serious about it.

So should you and anyone else be who reads this.

Check it out. THIS is one of the serious problems with higher education today. Student loans are particularly high because of practices like this.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Barbarian

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I have no idea what you're trying to say.

How does using a different translation add a physical death to their understanding?
It doesn't. But since the question of whether or not the spiritual death also included physical death is not a salvation issue, it's one way for Christians who don't accept the traditional understanding of Genesis to get past that problem. There are a lot of disagreements on the incidentals in the Bible, and they shouldn't be an impediment to salvation.
 

Barbarian

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A chemistry professor once told me she believed the textbook publishers are attempting to rewrite the PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS. This sounded ludicrous to me, but she assured me they were serious about it.

There actually isn't one "authorized" periodic table. There certainly is a list of known elements, but how they are arranged in the table can differ. I like the traditional one, but there are valid points in some others.

It is true that textbook publishers are often guilty of changing their books from year to year, and it sure looks as though they are trying to squeeze more money out of students by making used copies obsolete. Some professors are getting creative in trying to get around this.
 

jaybo

 
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Yes, dead serious.

Until retirement, I worked in the employment of a local State College in the computer department. Private conversations with instructors in other disciplines illuminated me as to the severity of the problem.

Do you work for a college? Are you unaware of the problem? If you don't believe me, then go to your own local college and interview several instructors for yourself. You will learn the same things I relate here. Google the subject.....PLEASE.

Textbook publishers deliberately alter the layout of textbooks. Sometimes its as simple as shifting chapters around. For instance, in one year chapter 6 might come after chapter 5. The next year the information in chapter six might appear after chapter 10. This prevents students from selling their old textbooks to new students so as to obtain money to defray textbook purchases for the next term (or to supply beer money).

In the same way, the internal subject matter and accompanying illustrations, are altered from year to year so as to promote sales of the new volume. In recent years, textbook sales have migrated to digital media which makes it nearly impossible to pass along the text to newer students or to even recover a modicum of the expense.

A chemistry professor once told me she believed the textbook publishers are attempting to rewrite the PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS. This sounded ludicrous to me, but she assured me they were serious about it.

So should you and anyone else be who reads this.

Check it out. THIS is one of the serious problems with higher education today. Student loans are particularly high because of practices like this.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
It doesn't help at all.

I spent many years in academia as an undergraduate student, as a graduate student, and as a researcher. I have used many textbooks, both as a student as an instructor, and my cousin is a textbook distributor.

No textbook is perfect, so they are subject to revisions. Academia is not static, and textbook changes reflect that. Also, many students resell their textbooks when they're done with them and I have never heard of a professor who won't accept their editions.

Sorry, but a) I disagree with your premise. and b) it has nothing to do with the OP. Therefore, I won't discuss this with you any longer. Bye.
 

Barbarian

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It depends a lot on the university, too. I took my introductory statistics course with a four-year-old copy of Huntsberger's Elements of Statistical Inference. Huntsberger happened to be on the faculty there. Wasn't a problem. Apparently the 6th edition is pretty much like the first one.

Obviously, statistics, being a discipline of mathematics, will be less revised than is science, which is constantly being updated and refined. But still...

Thank you, Dr. Huntsberger.
 

choir loft

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It doesn't help at all.

I spent many years in academia as an undergraduate student, as a graduate student, and as a researcher. I have used many textbooks, both as a student as an instructor, and my cousin is a textbook distributor.

No textbook is perfect, so they are subject to revisions. Academia is not static, and textbook changes reflect that. Also, many students resell their textbooks when they're done with them and I have never heard of a professor who won't accept their editions.

Sorry, but a) I disagree with your premise. and b) it has nothing to do with the OP. Therefore, I won't discuss this with you any longer. Bye.
Disagree. Slam the door. Walk out on the conversation without reading or acknowledging a single thing I wrote. You sound like one of the Deans at my college. Academic superiority is the root cause of poor scholasticism and failure.

Academia is a bubble of its own fabrication selling sometimes bogus services to students who don't know any better and are simply struggling to get by. How long ago did you study? Its a lot different now, believe me.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

choir loft

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It depends a lot on the university, too. I took my introductory statistics course with a four-year-old copy of Huntsberger's Elements of Statistical Inference. Huntsberger happened to be on the faculty there. Wasn't a problem. Apparently the 6th edition is pretty much like the first one.

Obviously, statistics, being a discipline of mathematics, will be less revised than is science, which is constantly being updated and refined. But still...

Thank you, Dr. Huntsberger.
Exactly what is the justification for manipulating the PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS - other than publisher profit$?

It happens, believe me.

Sometimes the last persons who are aware of what's wrong are those in lofty positions of authority (actually that's usually the case, not the exception). It's hard for them to understand because they are elevated above us all. I knew one of these types once who was such an expert she refused to accept the difference between MSoffice 365 and Windows 10. She believed the correct designation was Windows 365 and MSoffice 10 and would NOT be persuaded otherwise. The rest of us were too stupid to advise her correctly. She made our department look like a band of fools to everyone else. Arrogance is also part of academia and it plays no little part.

Expertise in one field does NOT translate to expertise in another.

Being an expert in an academic department doesn't give one insight as to the machinations of the publishing business - apart from raking in royalties from a textbook he or she may have written and requires their students to buy.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

jaybo

 
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Exactly what is the justification for manipulating the PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS - other than publisher profit$?

It happens, believe me.

Sometimes the last persons who are aware of what's wrong are those in lofty positions of authority (actually that's usually the case, not the exception). It's hard for them to understand because they are elevated above us all. I knew one of these types once who was such an expert she refused to accept the difference between MSoffice 365 and Windows 10. She believed the correct designation was Windows 365 and MSoffice 10 and would NOT be persuaded otherwise. The rest of us were too stupid to advise her correctly. She made our department look like a band of fools to everyone else. Arrogance is also part of academia and it plays no little part.

Expertise in one field does NOT translate to expertise in another.

Being an expert in an academic department doesn't give one insight as to the machinations of the publishing business - apart from raking in royalties from a textbook he or she may have written and requires their students to buy.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
But it does give them expertise about the value and accuracy of their textbook used in their courses. May I ask, why are you so stridently opposed to this situation?

Also, this jag has nothing to do with the OP subject: the fall and the problems of millions of years of natural evil.
 

choir loft

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Can the evolutionist view of the history of natural evil be harmonized with the Bible’s apparent teaching that all of this evil is the consequence of the Fall?

Continue reading...
The two philosophies are incompatible. The article in question evades the question and provides a tangential unsatisfying answer.

The Bible teaches that evil is the consequence of SIN. It is humans that created it, not God. (see Genesis 3)
The Bible does not address the false issue of animal evil because it doesn't exist in the real world.(*)

The greatest block between humans and God has nothing to do with philosophical evil - animal or otherwise. It has everything to do with their SIN and their love of it. It has to do with the propensity of humans to hold their OPINION in higher regard than the lives of their fellow man or GOD. Hence, humanity is infected with the love of lies hubris and murder.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. - Jesus Christ as quoted by John 3:19

The darkness they love is their SIN and they will do anything to preserve it, to hide it, to continue in it and to deny it - even to go so far as blaming animals for appearing to do the same. (Exactly how is any man guilty of an apparent animal SIN even if such a thing were possible?)

There is no end to the smoke and mirrors presented to mask the real problem - SIN.
There is only one solution - to REPENT and seek FORGIVENESS from God according to the LAW of Moses. For apart from the LAW no one can be saved. Faux philosophy cannot save. It can provide many excuses, though.

Be not deceived for SIN will find you out. (Numbers 32:23)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The Biblical definition of SIN is a violation of Mosaic LAW, specifically the 10 commandments. Evil is the consequence of DELIBERATE violation of God's LAW - SIN. Animals and plants are unable to perform this sort of deliberate cognitive hostility. They simply do what they do. Animals do not kill one another for a percentage, or because one of them carries the wrong flag - as humans often do.
 

Barbarian

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Exactly what is the justification for manipulating the PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS - other than publisher profit$?
Well, some of the different ways of representing the table are more useful for various things. All the textbooks I know of, use the one that's standard in most science classrooms. But in some upper college courses, I've seen the other presented.
 

choir loft

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I'm thinking that Satan beat us to it.
Read Genesis chapter 3.

When the Tempter fell to earth it had no power at all. It had been stripped of all authority it once enjoyed in heaven. (Luke 10:18)

Genesis 3 is about the transfer of authority, among other issues. Humans, Eve and Adam, yielded their God given authority to the Tempter - to that entity which is later identified in scripture as Satan.

He to whom you give your allegiance is he to whom you yield your personal authority.
He to whom you yield your body is he to whom you yield your rights and privileges and liberty.

(For example: Pledge of Allegiance to the government of the United States -or- 1st commandment of the LAW of Moses -or- Genesis chapter 3)


As a result of Eve and Adam's grant of authority that had initially been given to them by God, the Tempter then could exercise that authority to dismantle God's kingdom on earth and establish its own. The tools it used and continues to use in each human generation are; lies, thievery and murder. (John 8:44) Today humans are subject to the authority of satan because that's where they want it to reside. (John 3:19) We do not acknowledge the authority of God at all. (Romans 3:23) As a result the consequences of acts of satanic authority are what we call evil and death. (Romans 6:23)

The theme and suggestion for further Bible study is to follow the line of authority. Abuse of this authority leads to SIN (disobedience to God's LAW/will) and spiritual death.

In other words, satan didn't beat us to it (evil), he beats us WITH IT.

hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Last edited:

choir loft

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I'm thinking Satan beat us to the first sin.



That was long after Satan sinned.
The title of this thread implied a discussion in two parts; the Fall and prehistoric evil.

My post #32 attempted to address both issues.

Again, my argument is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PREHISTORIC EVIL. The initial post presumed an evolutionary view of prehistoric evil. Please go back and reread the first post for this thread.

Evolution is a pseudo-scientific theory which attempts to explain the development of life on planet Earth. Evil is a theological/philosophical concept. There is no evidence or suggestion of evil in the prehistoric record simply because the Biblical definition of evil is linked to God's LAW and disobedience of it. Darwin never mentioned it. There is no record of 'evil' in the fossil record. Animals do not disobey God's LAW. They simply do what they do. They grow and live and die and that's it.

Again, my argument addresses the second part of the first post here. That question assumes the Fall of man, as described in Genesis 3, attributes some sort of guilt to animals and plants because of human SIN. The Bible does not address prehistory, neither does it speak to dinosaurs, tectonic plate movement or the alignment of stars.

Any good book is consistent with its own theme and the Bible is no exception. The Bible is about the Fall and Redemption of man. The story of the Fall and Redemption of man is 6,000 years old and running. That's it and that's all. Drawing supposition from lunatic theories as to what the Bible says only leads to pointless undocumented conjecture.

To summarize, the Bible says evil is a symptom of SIN. It's not the source of it. If animals don't SIN they cannot be evil - feeding habits notwithstanding.

Biblically speaking, satan is linked to temptation. Temptation is linked to SIN and SIN's symptom is evil. If one has the flu, the symptoms would include runny nose, fever, aches and pains, etc. The symptoms are not indicative of anything except the presence of disease. Likewise evil is indicative or symptomatic of SIN. If animals cannot SIN, then they cannot be evil. Humanity is the exception because we choose TO SIN and thus are evil in thought word and deed.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Barbarian

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Evolution is a pseudo-scientific theory which attempts to explain the development of life on planet Earth.
No. It's an observed fact. We see evolution happening constantly. There is a theory of evolution that explains it, and there are consequences of evolution, such as common descent. Perhaps you don't know what the scientific definition of biological evolution is. What do you think it is?

Animals do not disobey God's LAW. They simply do what they do. They grow and live and die and that's it.
This is true, at least for simple animals. Some animals seem to have an idea of equity and fairness, but it's rudimentary.
 

wondering

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Barbarian, regarding physical death:
And of course, the Bible doesn't teach that it's the result of the fall.



A spiritual death,not a physical one. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam eats, but lives on physically for many years thereafter. If God tells the truth, the death that Adam brought into the world, is not a physical death.
Actually Barb, Adam also caused all men to die physically.
Every denomination teaches this.
Adam had preternatural gifts that were forfeited after the fall. One of the gifts was immortality.

God also gave Adam and Eve the preternatural gifts, namely
capacities and powers above and beyond the powers of created human nature, but not beyond the powers of angelic nature. The preternatural gifts include infused knowledge, freedom from concupiscence (the tendency toward sin and the disorder of our emotions as a result of original sin), and bodily immortality. These gifts gave Adam and Eve strength of will and control of their senses and emotions, as well as freedom from suffering and death.


having trouble pasting the source...check it out.
 

wondering

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The title of this thread implied a discussion in two parts; the Fall and prehistoric evil.

My post #32 attempted to address both issues.

Again, my argument is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PREHISTORIC EVIL. The initial post presumed an evolutionary view of prehistoric evil. Please go back and reread the first post for this thread.

Evolution is a pseudo-scientific theory which attempts to explain the development of life on planet Earth. Evil is a theological/philosophical concept. There is no evidence or suggestion of evil in the prehistoric record simply because the Biblical definition of evil is linked to God's LAW and disobedience of it. Darwin never mentioned it. There is no record of 'evil' in the fossil record. Animals do not disobey God's LAW. They simply do what they do. They grow and live and die and that's it.

Again, my argument addresses the second part of the first post here. That question assumes the Fall of man, as described in Genesis 3, attributes some sort of guilt to animals and plants because of human SIN. The Bible does not address prehistory, neither does it speak to dinosaurs, tectonic plate movement or the alignment of stars.

Any good book is consistent with its own theme and the Bible is no exception. The Bible is about the Fall and Redemption of man. The story of the Fall and Redemption of man is 6,000 years old and running. That's it and that's all. Drawing supposition from lunatic theories as to what the Bible says only leads to pointless undocumented conjecture.

To summarize, the Bible says evil is a symptom of SIN. It's not the source of it. If animals don't SIN they cannot be evil - feeding habits notwithstanding.

Biblically speaking, satan is linked to temptation. Temptation is linked to SIN and SIN's symptom is evil. If one has the flu, the symptoms would include runny nose, fever, aches and pains, etc. The symptoms are not indicative of anything except the presence of disease. Likewise evil is indicative or symptomatic of SIN. If animals cannot SIN, then they cannot be evil. Humanity is the exception because we choose TO SIN and thus are evil in thought word and deed.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Sin is a symptom of evil.
Evil entered the world due to the fall.
A hurricane does not sin...but it IS evil.
 

Barbarian

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From an Apostolic Christian perspective, it's clear that physical death was not brought into the world by Adam:

Of course, there is the question of how literally the details of this text should be taken. The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes that the early chapters of Genesis contain symbolic elements:
The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents (CCC 390).
But even if you take some of the details very literally, it still looks like animals and plants died before the Fall—consistent with the findings of modern science.
 

Barbarian

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Sin is a symptom of evil.
Evil entered the world due to the fall.
A hurricane does not sin...but it IS evil.

The definition of "evil" is the problem, I think...

Isaias 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

A hurricane is "evil" in the sense of Isaias; it's misfortune. But hurricanes are not wicked; they have no intent whatever.

Sin is a rebellion against God. It is not merely evil, but also wicked.
 

jaybo

 
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The definition of "evil" is the problem, I think...

Isaias 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

A hurricane is "evil" in the sense of Isaias; it's misfortune. But hurricanes are not wicked; they have no intent whatever.

Sin is a rebellion against God. It is not merely evil, but also wicked.
Isaiah 45:7, NIV...
"I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things."

and in the NET...

"I am the one who forms light
and creates darkness;
the one who brings about peace
and creates calamity."

... with this translator's note: "This verse affirms that God is ultimately sovereign over his world, including mankind and nations. In accordance with his sovereign will, he can cause wars to cease and peace to predominate (as he was about to do for his exiled people through Cyrus), or he can bring disaster and judgment on nations (as he was about to do to Babylon through Cyrus)."

and in the ESV...

"I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things."

and in the NASB...

"The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating disaster;
I am the Lord who does all these things.

Clearly, the translation that you use has assigned a different English meaning to the word than "evil" than other well-respected translations. The preferred English word is "disaster" or "calamity". It's not a good idea to interpret the Bible and create doctrine using only one version's interpretation of a single word.
 
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