Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

[__ Science __ ] The Fall and the Problem of Millions of Years of Natural Evil

Barbarian

Member
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
28,604
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Trust Jesus:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

Doesn't seem that hard to understand. Hard to do, sometimes. But not hard to understand. Get that right, and you don't have to worry about the rest.
 

choir loft

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
49
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
I do believe I agree with you from what you've written above,
but I have two questions:

1. What IS the Law?

2. Could you please explain what you wrote above, highlighted by me?
" As Paul writes in Romans 2:12, "he who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." "

I think you might have written it backwards...
There are TWO LAWS.

When one speaks to gentiles the LAW is that which is stated in Torah - the first 5 books of the Bible also latinized as Pentateuch. Even simpler, the LAW is the 10 commandments. These are also called the LAW of Moses, the moral law or the Royal Law. Take your pick. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

My post provided a review of the pattern by which LAW & GRACE interact with one another. LAW does not subvert GRACE and GRACE does not replace LAW.

At the risk of complicating matters the SECOND LAW is called Talmud.

The first LAW, the LAW of Moses, is called Torah and is given by an act of GRACE of our Lord to mankind. It cannot be revoked or replaced.

The second law, the law of the rabbinate, is called Talmud and is dictated by tradition, or works.

Talmud and Torah present a tension between grace and works. This tension is referred to many times in the gospels and epistles by Jesus and the apostles. Generally speaking when the narrative mentions 'works' or 'traditions' it refers to Talmud. When the narrative mentions grace it refers to Torah.

Gentiles, who are not subject to Talmud, are generally unaware of the requirements of its adherents. Most of the 613 LAWS of the Torah aren't applicable to gentiles and a lot aren't applicable to Jews either for several reasons.

It's often said by church folks that Jewish traditions won't save anybody. This is true, but Christian traditions won't save anybody either. Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter bunny, baptism and Holy Communion won't save either, yet church folks act as if they do. Church folks stumble over the same traditional mumbo jumbo as their Jewish brethren.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

choir loft

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
49
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Romans 2:12, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." NIV
BOGUS ALERT

You misquoted scripture here. The literal quotation of Romans 2:12 in most translations goes something like this: All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. In other words, he who does not live by the law will die by the law. This goes for the saved as well as the unsaved.

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. - Jesus as quoted in Matthew 5:17

Those who claim salvation by grace alone generally fall under the category of SIN-lovers for Grace isn't given to justify SIN as those who reject the LAW suppose. LAW and GRACE are given together so as to promote redemption.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. - Galatians 6:7

God does not play games as man loves to do. Be wise and be careful. Have faith in God and obey His LAW lest ye die.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

wondering

CF Ambassador
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
18,910
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
There are TWO LAWS.

When one speaks to gentiles the LAW is that which is stated in Torah - the first 5 books of the Bible also latinized as Pentateuch. Even simpler, the LAW is the 10 commandments. These are also called the LAW of Moses, the moral law or the Royal Law. Take your pick. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

My post provided a review of the pattern by which LAW & GRACE interact with one another. LAW does not subvert GRACE and GRACE does not replace LAW.

At the risk of complicating matters the SECOND LAW is called Talmud.

The first LAW, the LAW of Moses, is called Torah and is given by an act of GRACE of our Lord to mankind. It cannot be revoked or replaced.

The second law, the law of the rabbinate, is called Talmud and is dictated by tradition, or works.

Talmud and Torah present a tension between grace and works. This tension is referred to many times in the gospels and epistles by Jesus and the apostles. Generally speaking when the narrative mentions 'works' or 'traditions' it refers to Talmud. When the narrative mentions grace it refers to Torah.

Gentiles, who are not subject to Talmud, are generally unaware of the requirements of its adherents. Most of the 613 LAWS of the Torah aren't applicable to gentiles and a lot aren't applicable to Jews either for several reasons.

It's often said by church folks that Jewish traditions won't save anybody. This is true, but Christian traditions won't save anybody either. Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter bunny, baptism and Holy Communion won't save either, yet church folks act as if they do. Church folks stumble over the same traditional mumbo jumbo as their Jewish brethren.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Yes, agreed on all you've said.
Including the Torah and the Talmud.

I do want to say that Jesus did abolish some of the Torah.
The Civil Law (most) are no longer in use today.
Also the Ceremonial Law is no longer applicable, if for nothing else, due to the change in our culture and its habits and traditions.

OTOH, the Moral Law is still applicable and as Jesus stated in Matthew 5, He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it - I'm sure you know what fulfill means. (It does not mean that He did it all so we now have nothing to do).

You did, however, send me running to my bible regarding
Romans 2:12.

Let me post it in some versions for those reading along that might be interested:

New International Version
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

New Living Translation
When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

English Standard Version
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Berean Study Bible
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Berean Literal Bible
For as many as have sinned without the Law also will perish without the Law; and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law,

King James Bible
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

New King James Version
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

New American Standard Bible
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

NASB 1995
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

NASB 1977
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Amplified Bible
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

Christian Standard Bible
For all who sin without the law will also perish without the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

American Standard Version
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For those who have sinned without The Written Law are also destroyed without The Written Law, and those who sinned with The Written Law will be judged by The Written Law.

Contemporary English Version
Those people who don't know about God's Law will still be punished for what they do wrong. And the Law will be used to judge everyone who knows what it says.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.

English Revised Version
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned under law shall be judged by law;

Good News Translation
The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.

International Standard Version
For all who have sinned apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

Literal Standard Version
for as many as sinned without law, will also perish without law, and as many as sinned in law, through law will be judged,

NET Bible
For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

New Heart English Bible
For as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Weymouth New Testament
For all who have sinned apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who have sinned whilst living under the Law, will be judged by the Law.

World English Bible
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Young's Literal Translation
for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,

This is what you posted regarding what it means:


Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.


Agreed. Romans 2 is speaking about those that know the law and those that do not. According to Romans 1:19-20, everyone is responsible for knowing God and His laws by seeing what He has made, which shows God to be a powerful being. Persons were always lost or saved according to the faith they had in God and the knowledge they had of Him and accepted Him - which not all did.
Not the hearers of the Law will be justified...
but the DOERS of the Law. Romans 2:13
 

choir loft

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
49
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Yes, agreed on all you've said.
Including the Torah and the Talmud.

I do want to say that Jesus did abolish some of the Torah.
The Civil Law (most) are no longer in use today.
Also the Ceremonial Law is no longer applicable, if for nothing else, due to the change in our culture and its habits and traditions.

OTOH, the Moral Law is still applicable and as Jesus stated in Matthew 5, He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it - I'm sure you know what fulfill means. (It does not mean that He did it all so we now have nothing to do).

You did, however, send me running to my bible regarding
Romans 2:12.

Let me post it in some versions for those reading along that might be interested:



Young's Literal Translation
for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,


This is what you posted regarding what it means:

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.


Agreed. Romans 2 is speaking about those that know the law and those that do not. According to Romans 1:19-20, everyone is responsible for knowing God and His laws by seeing what He has made, which shows God to be a powerful being. Persons were always lost or saved according to the faith they had in God and the knowledge they had of Him and accepted Him - which not all did.
Not the hearers of the Law will be justified...
but the DOERS of the Law. Romans 2:13
Jesus DID NOT abolish the LAW. He didn't abolish any part of it.

"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Your intentions are good, but your attention to detail needs tweeking.

Jesus NEVER abolished the LAW or any part of it. Read what He said about this:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

In the above Jesus referred to Hebrew punctuation marks consisting of JOTS and TITTLES. Examine Hebrew writing. Along with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet there are tiny dots and pen strokes. These tiny marks accentuate the letters and contextualize the meaning of the words they compose. Not only did Jesus say He would NOT abolish the LAW, but that He wouldn't even erase a single JOT or TITTLE of these punctuation marks. Modern Hebrew doesn't use them a whole lot because one can get the gist of the meaning of secular words without them, but with regard to the LAW they are very important.

What did Jesus mean when He said He came to fulfill the LAW? What requirement of the LAW did Jesus provide? It has nothing to do with what we DO. Hint: it has everything to do with what we accept. The provision Jesus fulfilled is permanent and cannot be changed. What was it? This is why I insist THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Gentiles are not required to observe certain details of the 613 laws of Torah. Which parts are excused and which parts aren't are a matter of debate since Paul & Peter held different points of view on the subject. On the other hand, there's a great deal of it gentiles are indeed required to observe. The LAW determines what gentiles and Jews ought to believe and why. Many heresies in the church have been created because the church has turned its back upon the LAW so as to favor secular society or to exercise control issues over congregations or both.

What do you mean by civil law?

Generally speaking ancient Israel, not the Israel of Jesus' time, was a Theocracy - ruled by unelected religious leaders. In Jesus' time Israel was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire and could not enforce major laws without the approval of the Roman governor. Today the modern State of Israel is a republic, but still observes the requirements of Torah. For instance, the entire country shuts down on Shabbat (Saturday). Nothing moves on that day.

America used to be a republic governed by law, but that has changed. It's a subject for another discussion.

Many of the laws listed in Torah are CASE LAW. For instance, if a man's lamb or cow falls into a ditch on shabbat (sabbath) he is allowed to fetch it out. Normally work is forbidden, but in this case its ok. Many churches follow shabbat restrictions and this CASE LAW is useful to show them they are allowed to work during an emergency situation. Jesus amplified the CASE LAW when He healed on shabbat. The pharisees objected to His healing on shabbat, but had to violate their own understanding of LAW to do it. They were more interested in priestly control issues than in following God's Holy LAW - as are most churches today. We see here an example of Tradition over LAW. The LAW is not bad, but tradition can be devious.

Parts of ceremonial LAW are not applicable today.

For Jews, many portions of the ceremonial LAW aren't applicable because they're linked to the TEMPLE which no longer exists. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, some portions of temple LAW are observed by churches without knowing what they're doing. For example, the LAW states that when one comes before the Lord for forgiveness one must do it personally. No priest or holy man/woman can do it for you. You do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

The RCC has perverted this portion of the LAW by requiring their priests monsignors bishops cardinals and pope to grant forgiveness on behalf of the congregation. The dogma is called Absolution and is not LAWful according to explicit interpretation of God's Word/LAW. Did you know Pope Francis has granted absolution of SINs for those who follow him on social media? This is not Biblical, but is a good example of lawLESSness in our churches.

This is why I insist on the importance of LAW in our hearts and minds. It clears the road, so to speak. Hope this helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
 
Last edited:

jaybo

2022 Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,335
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Jesus DID NOT abolish the LAW. He didn't abolish any part of it.

"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Your intentions are good, but your attention to detail needs tweeking.

Jesus NEVER abolished the LAW or any part of it. Read what He said about this:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

In the above Jesus referred to Hebrew punctuation marks consisting of JOTS and TITTLES. Examine Hebrew writing. Along with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet there are tiny dots and pen strokes. These tiny marks accentuate the letters and contextualize the meaning of the words they compose. Not only did Jesus say He would NOT abolish the LAW, but that He wouldn't even erase a single JOT or TITTLE of these punctuation marks. Modern Hebrew doesn't use them a whole lot because one can get the gist of the meaning of secular words without them, but with regard to the LAW they are very important.

What did Jesus mean when He said He came to fulfill the LAW? What requirement of the LAW did Jesus provide? It has nothing to do with what we DO. Hint: it has everything to do with what we accept. The provision Jesus fulfilled is permanent and cannot be changed. What was it? This is why I insist THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Gentiles are not required to observe certain details of the 613 laws of Torah. Which parts are excused and which parts aren't are a matter of debate since Paul & Peter held different points of view on the subject. On the other hand, there's a great deal of it gentiles are indeed required to observe. The LAW determines what gentiles and Jews ought to believe and why. Many heresies in the church have been created because the church has turned its back upon the LAW so as to favor secular society or to exercise control issues over congregations or both.

What do you mean by civil law?

Generally speaking ancient Israel, not the Israel of Jesus' time, was a Theocracy - ruled by unelected religious leaders. In Jesus' time Israel was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire and could not enforce major laws without the approval of the Roman governor. Today the modern State of Israel is a republic, but still observes the requirements of Torah. For instance, the entire country shuts down on Shabbat (Saturday). Nothing moves on that day.

America used to be a republic governed by law, but that has changed. It's a subject for another discussion.

Many of the laws listed in Torah are CASE LAW. For instance, if a man's lamb or cow falls into a ditch on shabbat (sabbath) he is allowed to fetch it out. Normally work is forbidden, but in this case its ok. Many churches follow shabbat restrictions and this CASE LAW is useful to show them they are allowed to work during an emergency situation. Jesus amplified the CASE LAW when He healed on shabbat. The pharisees objected to His healing on shabbat, but had to violate their own understanding of LAW to do it. They were more interested in priestly control issues than in following God's Holy LAW - as are most churches today. We see here an example of Tradition over LAW. The LAW is not bad, but tradition can be devious.

Parts of ceremonial LAW are not applicable today.

For Jews, many portions of the ceremonial LAW aren't applicable because they're linked to the TEMPLE which no longer exists. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, some portions of temple LAW are observed by churches without knowing what they're doing. For example, the LAW states that when one comes before the Lord for forgiveness one must do it personally. No priest or holy man/woman can do it for you. You do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

The RCC has perverted this portion of the LAW by requiring their priests monsignors bishops cardinals and pope to grant forgiveness on behalf of the congregation. The dogma is called Absolution and is not LAWful according to explicit interpretation of God's Word/LAW. Did you know Pope Francis has granted absolution of SINs for those who follow him on social media? This is not Biblical, but is a good example of lawLESSness in our churches.

This is why I insist on the importance of LAW in our hearts and minds. It clears the road, so to speak. Hope this helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
Is there something about Romans 7:4 that you don't understand? It says, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."

How about Romans 6:14, "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

Christians are dead to the law. Period.
 

Barbarian

Member
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
28,604
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
There are TWO LAWS.

When one speaks to gentiles the LAW is that which is stated in Torah - the first 5 books of the Bible also latinized as Pentateuch. Even simpler, the LAW is the 10 commandments. These are also called the LAW of Moses, the moral law or the Royal Law. Take your pick. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

My post provided a review of the pattern by which LAW & GRACE interact with one another. LAW does not subvert GRACE and GRACE does not replace LAW.

At the risk of complicating matters the SECOND LAW is called Talmud.

The first LAW, the LAW of Moses, is called Torah and is given by an act of GRACE of our Lord to mankind. It cannot be revoked or replaced.

The second law, the law of the rabbinate, is called Talmud and is dictated by tradition, or works.

Talmud and Torah present a tension between grace and works. This tension is referred to many times in the gospels and epistles by Jesus and the apostles. Generally speaking when the narrative mentions 'works' or 'traditions' it refers to Talmud. When the narrative mentions grace it refers to Torah.

Gentiles, who are not subject to Talmud, are generally unaware of the requirements of its adherents. Most of the 613 LAWS of the Torah aren't applicable to gentiles and a lot aren't applicable to Jews either for several reasons.

It's often said by church folks that Jewish traditions won't save anybody. This is true, but Christian traditions won't save anybody either. Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter bunny, baptism and Holy Communion won't save either, yet church folks act as if they do. Church folks stumble over the same traditional mumbo jumbo as their Jewish brethren.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
[nitpick]Um, "penta" is Greek. "Quinque" is Latin for "five."[/nitpick]
 

choir loft

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
49
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Is there something about Romans 7:4 that you don't understand? It says, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."

How about Romans 6:14, "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

Christians are dead to the law. Period.
I understand quite well. Some remain quite confused, unfortunately.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "I have NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a tittle, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

Jots and tittles are tiny punctuation marks used in written Hebrew. Their purpose is to clarify and contextualize the meaning of the words they identify with. Not only did Jesus NOT abolish the LAW, but He didn't erase so much as a period or scribe mark of any of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet by which its written.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, what portion of it did He fulfill? In doing so, He made the LAW perfect. What did He do that made the LAW perfect? (Hint: it wasn't accomplished by living a perfect life.) Also, please consider the question of the purpose of the LAW. Its purpose stands to this day. What is it?

Grace does not subvert the LAW. It NEVER justifies SIN as some contend.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Refusal to recognize the purpose of the LAW in the process of redemption does not nullify it. Refusal of the purpose of the LAW supports SIN, not righteousness.

THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

One is the LAW of grace given by God to Moses on the holy mountain.
One is the law of works begun by the Jewish rabbinate during the Babylonian captivity (called the Talmud).

Jews who lived in Jesus' time were educated by the Son of God and His apostles as to the difference. They knew, as gentiles did not, what Jesus and the apostles were talking about when they referenced works of the LAW and justification by GRACE. They understood two different laws are at work. References to a law of works are either remarks directed at Jewish traditions or the Babylonian Talmud. Christian traditions such as Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter Bunny, baptism and Holy Communion don't save us either. Only the blood of Christ can save.

What then is the role of the LAW in the normal Christian life? It is much indeed.

Until recently the Protestant church knew the answer. Unfortunately secular influence as well as the insinuation of Roman Catholic dogma upon Protestant doctrine has eroded the understanding God intended us to possess.

How do LAW & GRACE work together unto salvation? Think of a bathroom sink and mirror to understand this spiritual principle.

A man cannot see that his face is dirty, so he uses a bathroom mirror to understand his need of cleaning. The mirror, representative of the LAW, can reveal his dirt but it can't cleanse him of it. He needs soap and water to finish the job. Soap and water, representative of GRACE, can clean the dirt from a man's face, but it cannot reveal to him that he needs cleaning. Thus soap and water, like LAW & GRACE work together to cleanse us of dirt and SIN.

This allegory is a bit simplistic, but is an effective teaching aid to understand the interactive role of both.

Jews observe SHAVUOT - the time when God gave the LAW to Moses.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Passover/Easter.)
Christians observe PENTACOST - the time when God gave GRACE to mankind.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Easter/Passover.

Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something very important about LAW & GRACE?

Both work together unto redemption. GRACE does not abolish LAW and LAW does not nullify GRACE.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Last edited:

jaybo

2022 Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,335
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
I understand quite well. Some remain quite confused, unfortunately.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "I have NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a tittle, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

Jots and tittles are tiny punctuation marks used in written Hebrew. Their purpose is to clarify and contextualize the meaning of the words they identify with. Not only did Jesus NOT abolish the LAW, but He didn't erase so much as a period or scribe mark of any of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet by which its written.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, what portion of it did He fulfill? In doing so, He made the LAW perfect. What did He do that made the LAW perfect? (Hint: it wasn't accomplished by living a perfect life.) Also, please consider the question of the purpose of the LAW. Its purpose stands to this day. What is it?

Grace does not subvert the LAW. It NEVER justifies SIN as some contend.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Refusal to recognize the purpose of the LAW in the process of redemption does not nullify it. Refusal of the purpose of the LAW supports SIN, not righteousness.

THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

One is the LAW of grace given by God to Moses on the holy mountain.
One is the law of works begun by the Jewish rabbinate during the Babylonian captivity (called the Talmud).

Jews who lived in Jesus' time were educated by the Son of God and His apostles as to the difference. They knew, as gentiles did not, what Jesus and the apostles were talking about when they referenced works of the LAW and justification by GRACE. They understood two different laws are at work. References to a law of works are either remarks directed at Jewish traditions or the Babylonian Talmud. Christian traditions such as Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter Bunny, baptism and Holy Communion don't save us either. Only the blood of Christ can save.

What then is the role of the LAW in the normal Christian life? It is much indeed.

Until recently the Protestant church knew the answer. Unfortunately secular influence as well as the insinuation of Roman Catholic dogma upon Protestant doctrine has eroded the understanding God intended us to possess.

How do LAW & GRACE work together unto salvation? Think of a bathroom sink and mirror to understand this spiritual principle.

A man cannot see that his face is dirty, so he uses a bathroom mirror to understand his need of cleaning. The mirror, representative of the LAW, can reveal his dirt but it can't cleanse him of it. He needs soap and water to finish the job. Soap and water, representative of GRACE, can clean the dirt from a man's face, but it cannot reveal to him that he needs cleaning. Thus soap and water, like LAW & GRACE work together to cleanse us of dirt and SIN.

This allegory is a bit simplistic, but is an effective teaching aid to understand the interactive role of both.

Jews observe SHAVUOT - the time when God gave the LAW to Moses.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Passover/Easter.)
Christians observe PENTACOST - the time when God gave GRACE to mankind.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Easter/Passover.

Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something very important about LAW & GRACE?

Both work together unto redemption. GRACE does not abolish LAW and LAW does not nullify GRACE.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Apparently you don't understand to whom Jesus was talking in Matthew. He was not talking to Christians, as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. He was talking to (primarily) Jews.

I strongly recommend reading Galatians if you want to understand the relation of Christians to the law. Here is an excerpt: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" Galatians 5:18 That encapsulates Paul's instructions about the law vs the Spirit.

If you need a longer explanation, Galatians 3:10-13a says, "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.
 

wondering

CF Ambassador
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
18,910
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Jesus DID NOT abolish the LAW. He didn't abolish any part of it.

"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Your intentions are good, but your attention to detail needs tweeking.

Jesus NEVER abolished the LAW or any part of it. Read what He said about this:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

Hey Choir loft,
I think you misunderstood my post to you.
:)
I never said Jesus abolished the Law....
Then I distinguished between the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and MORAL LAW...

In the above Jesus referred to Hebrew punctuation marks consisting of JOTS and TITTLES. Examine Hebrew writing. Along with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet there are tiny dots and pen strokes. These tiny marks accentuate the letters and contextualize the meaning of the words they compose. Not only did Jesus say He would NOT abolish the LAW, but that He wouldn't even erase a single JOT or TITTLE of these punctuation marks. Modern Hebrew doesn't use them a whole lot because one can get the gist of the meaning of secular words without them, but with regard to the LAW they are very important.

What did Jesus mean when He said He came to fulfill the LAW? What requirement of the LAW did Jesus provide? It has nothing to do with what we DO. Hint: it has everything to do with what we accept. The provision Jesus fulfilled is permanent and cannot be changed. What was it? This is why I insist THE LAW STILL STANDS.

I can't be sure of what you're speaking....
What Jesus DID accomplish is that He was perfect.
This perfection is what made Him be our expiation, our atonement.
Only a perfect lamb could do this (Exodus) and Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God.

As to what we accept, I think you'll have to explain.
Gentiles are not required to observe certain details of the 613 laws of Torah. Which parts are excused and which parts aren't are a matter of debate since Paul & Peter held different points of view on the subject. On the other hand, there's a great deal of it gentiles are indeed required to observe. The LAW determines what gentiles and Jews ought to believe and why. Many heresies in the church have been created because the church has turned its back upon the LAW so as to favor secular society or to exercise control issues over congregations or both.

What do you mean by civil law?

Generally speaking ancient Israel, not the Israel of Jesus' time, was a Theocracy - ruled by unelected religious leaders. In Jesus' time Israel was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire and could not enforce major laws without the approval of the Roman governor. Today the modern State of Israel is a republic, but still observes the requirements of Torah. For instance, the entire country shuts down on Shabbat (Saturday). Nothing moves on that day.

America used to be a republic governed by law, but that has changed. It's a subject for another discussion.

Many of the laws listed in Torah are CASE LAW. For instance, if a man's lamb or cow falls into a ditch on shabbat (sabbath) he is allowed to fetch it out. Normally work is forbidden, but in this case its ok. Many churches follow shabbat restrictions and this CASE LAW is useful to show them they are allowed to work during an emergency situation. Jesus amplified the CASE LAW when He healed on shabbat. The pharisees objected to His healing on shabbat, but had to violate their own understanding of LAW to do it. They were more interested in priestly control issues than in following God's Holy LAW - as are most churches today. We see here an example of Tradition over LAW. The LAW is not bad, but tradition can be devious.

What you write above is CIVIL LAW. You call it Case Law. I've never heard it called that, but it's the same as Civil Law.

Parts of ceremonial LAW are not applicable today.

For Jews, many portions of the ceremonial LAW aren't applicable because they're linked to the TEMPLE which no longer exists. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, some portions of temple LAW are observed by churches without knowing what they're doing. For example, the LAW states that when one comes before the Lord for forgiveness one must do it personally. No priest or holy man/woman can do it for you. You do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

Again, I agree and this is what I stated in my last post to you.

The RCC has perverted this portion of the LAW by requiring their priests monsignors bishops cardinals and pope to grant forgiveness on behalf of the congregation. The dogma is called Absolution and is not LAWful according to explicit interpretation of God's Word/LAW. Did you know Pope Francis has granted absolution of SINs for those who follow him on social media? This is not Biblical, but is a good example of lawLESSness in our churches.

This is why I insist on the importance of LAW in our hearts and minds. It clears the road, so to speak. Hope this helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
Pope Francis has taken a few undoctrinal stands, which he promised not to change BTW, when he took his oath as Pope. Most Catholics are waiting for him to retire.

You said that persons had to ask forgiveness themselves, personally, before the Lord.
How do you reconcile that with the necessity of offering sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of sins - in which case priests were used.?
 

wondering

CF Ambassador
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
18,910
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
jaybo

Hi Jaybo
Could you tell me why you gave me a like in the post above?

OR
See my thread in Theology re the Law and Grace...
 

jaybo

2022 Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,335
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
jaybo

Hi Jaybo
Could you tell me why you gave me a like in the post above?

OR
See my thread in Theology re the Law and Grace...
I liked the overall message of your post, but I especially liked this...

I can't be sure of what you're speaking....
What Jesus DID accomplish is that He was perfect.
This perfection is what made Him be our expiation, our atonement.
Only a perfect lamb could do this (Exodus) and Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God.

I'm not sure why people have difficulty understanding what Jesus' sacrifice accomplished. IMHO it's just not that complicated. God demanded sacrifice for sins committed, and Jesus was that perfect sacrifice.
 
Top