[__ Science __ ] The Fall and the Problem of Millions of Years of Natural Evil

[Barbarian]

Trust Jesus:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

Doesn't seem that hard to understand. Hard to do, sometimes. But not hard to understand. Get that right, and you don't have to worry about the rest.

 

[choir loft]

I do believe I agree with you from what you've written above,
but I have two questions:

1. What IS the Law?

2. Could you please explain what you wrote above, highlighted by me?
" As Paul writes in Romans 2:12, "he who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW." "

I think you might have written it backwards...

There are TWO LAWS.

When one speaks to gentiles the LAW is that which is stated in Torah - the first 5 books of the Bible also latinized as Pentateuch. Even simpler, the LAW is the 10 commandments. These are also called the LAW of Moses, the moral law or the Royal Law. Take your pick. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

My post provided a review of the pattern by which LAW & GRACE interact with one another. LAW does not subvert GRACE and GRACE does not replace LAW.

At the risk of complicating matters the SECOND LAW is called Talmud.

The first LAW, the LAW of Moses, is called Torah and is given by an act of GRACE of our Lord to mankind. It cannot be revoked or replaced.

The second law, the law of the rabbinate, is called Talmud and is dictated by tradition, or works.

Talmud and Torah present a tension between grace and works. This tension is referred to many times in the gospels and epistles by Jesus and the apostles. Generally speaking when the narrative mentions 'works' or 'traditions' it refers to Talmud. When the narrative mentions grace it refers to Torah.

Gentiles, who are not subject to Talmud, are generally unaware of the requirements of its adherents. Most of the 613 LAWS of the Torah aren't applicable to gentiles and a lot aren't applicable to Jews either for several reasons.

It's often said by church folks that Jewish traditions won't save anybody. This is true, but Christian traditions won't save anybody either. Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter bunny, baptism and Holy Communion won't save either, yet church folks act as if they do. Church folks stumble over the same traditional mumbo jumbo as their Jewish brethren.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[choir loft]

Romans 2:12, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." NIV

The literal quotation of Romans 2:12 in most translations goes something like this: All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. In other words, he who does not live by the law will die by the law. This goes for the saved as well as the unsaved.

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. - Jesus as quoted in Matthew 5:17

Those who claim salvation by grace alone generally fall under the category of SIN-lovers for Grace isn't given to justify SIN as those who reject the LAW suppose. LAW and GRACE are given together so as to promote redemption.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. - Galatians 6:7

God does not play games as man loves to do. Be wise and be careful. Have faith in God and obey His LAW lest ye die.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[GodsGrace]

There are TWO LAWS.

When one speaks to gentiles the LAW is that which is stated in Torah - the first 5 books of the Bible also latinized as Pentateuch. Even simpler, the LAW is the 10 commandments. These are also called the LAW of Moses, the moral law or the Royal Law. Take your pick. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

My post provided a review of the pattern by which LAW & GRACE interact with one another. LAW does not subvert GRACE and GRACE does not replace LAW.

At the risk of complicating matters the SECOND LAW is called Talmud.

The first LAW, the LAW of Moses, is called Torah and is given by an act of GRACE of our Lord to mankind. It cannot be revoked or replaced.

The second law, the law of the rabbinate, is called Talmud and is dictated by tradition, or works.

Talmud and Torah present a tension between grace and works. This tension is referred to many times in the gospels and epistles by Jesus and the apostles. Generally speaking when the narrative mentions 'works' or 'traditions' it refers to Talmud. When the narrative mentions grace it refers to Torah.

Gentiles, who are not subject to Talmud, are generally unaware of the requirements of its adherents. Most of the 613 LAWS of the Torah aren't applicable to gentiles and a lot aren't applicable to Jews either for several reasons.

It's often said by church folks that Jewish traditions won't save anybody. This is true, but Christian traditions won't save anybody either. Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter bunny, baptism and Holy Communion won't save either, yet church folks act as if they do. Church folks stumble over the same traditional mumbo jumbo as their Jewish brethren.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Yes, agreed on all you've said.
Including the Torah and the Talmud.

I do want to say that Jesus did abolish some of the Torah.
The Civil Law (most) are no longer in use today.
Also the Ceremonial Law is no longer applicable, if for nothing else, due to the change in our culture and its habits and traditions.

OTOH, the Moral Law is still applicable and as Jesus stated in Matthew 5, He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it - I'm sure you know what fulfill means. (It does not mean that He did it all so we now have nothing to do).

You did, however, send me running to my bible regarding
Romans 2:12.

Let me post it in some versions for those reading along that might be interested:

New International Version
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

New Living Translation
When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

English Standard Version
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Berean Study Bible
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Berean Literal Bible
For as many as have sinned without the Law also will perish without the Law; and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law,

King James Bible
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

New King James Version
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

New American Standard Bible
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

NASB 1995
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

NASB 1977
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Amplified Bible
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

Christian Standard Bible
For all who sin without the law will also perish without the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

American Standard Version
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For those who have sinned without The Written Law are also destroyed without The Written Law, and those who sinned with The Written Law will be judged by The Written Law.

Contemporary English Version
Those people who don't know about God's Law will still be punished for what they do wrong. And the Law will be used to judge everyone who knows what it says.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.

English Revised Version
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned under law shall be judged by law;

Good News Translation
The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.

International Standard Version
For all who have sinned apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

Literal Standard Version
for as many as sinned without law, will also perish without law, and as many as sinned in law, through law will be judged,

NET Bible
For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

New Heart English Bible
For as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Weymouth New Testament
For all who have sinned apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who have sinned whilst living under the Law, will be judged by the Law.

World English Bible
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Young's Literal Translation
for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,

This is what you posted regarding what it means:


Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.


Agreed. Romans 2 is speaking about those that know the law and those that do not. According to Romans 1:19-20, everyone is responsible for knowing God and His laws by seeing what He has made, which shows God to be a powerful being. Persons were always lost or saved according to the faith they had in God and the knowledge they had of Him and accepted Him - which not all did.
Not the hearers of the Law will be justified...
but the DOERS of the Law. Romans 2:13

 

[choir loft]

Yes, agreed on all you've said.
Including the Torah and the Talmud.

I do want to say that Jesus did abolish some of the Torah.
The Civil Law (most) are no longer in use today.
Also the Ceremonial Law is no longer applicable, if for nothing else, due to the change in our culture and its habits and traditions.

OTOH, the Moral Law is still applicable and as Jesus stated in Matthew 5, He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it - I'm sure you know what fulfill means. (It does not mean that He did it all so we now have nothing to do).

You did, however, send me running to my bible regarding
Romans 2:12.

Let me post it in some versions for those reading along that might be interested:



Young's Literal Translation
for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,

This is what you posted regarding what it means:

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.


Agreed. Romans 2 is speaking about those that know the law and those that do not. According to Romans 1:19-20, everyone is responsible for knowing God and His laws by seeing what He has made, which shows God to be a powerful being. Persons were always lost or saved according to the faith they had in God and the knowledge they had of Him and accepted Him - which not all did.
Not the hearers of the Law will be justified...
but the DOERS of the Law. Romans 2:13

Jesus DID NOT abolish the LAW. He didn't abolish any part of it.

"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17



Jesus NEVER abolished the LAW or any part of it. Read what He said about this:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

In the above Jesus referred to Hebrew punctuation marks consisting of JOTS and TITTLES. Examine Hebrew writing. Along with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet there are tiny dots and pen strokes. These tiny marks accentuate the letters and contextualize the meaning of the words they compose. Not only did Jesus say He would NOT abolish the LAW, but that He wouldn't even erase a single JOT or TITTLE of these punctuation marks. Modern Hebrew doesn't use them a whole lot because one can get the gist of the meaning of secular words without them, but with regard to the LAW they are very important.

What did Jesus mean when He said He came to fulfill the LAW? What requirement of the LAW did Jesus provide? It has nothing to do with what we DO. Hint: it has everything to do with what we accept. The provision Jesus fulfilled is permanent and cannot be changed. What was it? This is why I insist THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Gentiles are not required to observe certain details of the 613 laws of Torah. Which parts are excused and which parts aren't are a matter of debate since Paul & Peter held different points of view on the subject. On the other hand, there's a great deal of it gentiles are indeed required to observe. The LAW determines what gentiles and Jews ought to believe and why. Many heresies in the church have been created because the church has turned its back upon the LAW so as to favor secular society or to exercise control issues over congregations or both.

What do you mean by civil law?

Generally speaking ancient Israel, not the Israel of Jesus' time, was a Theocracy - ruled by unelected religious leaders. In Jesus' time Israel was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire and could not enforce major laws without the approval of the Roman governor. Today the modern State of Israel is a republic, but still observes the requirements of Torah. For instance, the entire country shuts down on Shabbat (Saturday). Nothing moves on that day.

America used to be a republic governed by law, but that has changed. It's a subject for another discussion.

Many of the laws listed in Torah are CASE LAW. For instance, if a man's lamb or cow falls into a ditch on shabbat (sabbath) he is allowed to fetch it out. Normally work is forbidden, but in this case its ok. Many churches follow shabbat restrictions and this CASE LAW is useful to show them they are allowed to work during an emergency situation. Jesus amplified the CASE LAW when He healed on shabbat. The pharisees objected to His healing on shabbat, but had to violate their own understanding of LAW to do it. They were more interested in priestly control issues than in following God's Holy LAW - as are most churches today. We see here an example of Tradition over LAW. The LAW is not bad, but tradition can be devious.

Parts of ceremonial LAW are not applicable today.

For Jews, many portions of the ceremonial LAW aren't applicable because they're linked to the TEMPLE which no longer exists. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, some portions of temple LAW are observed by churches without knowing what they're doing. For example, the LAW states that when one comes before the Lord for forgiveness one must do it personally. No priest or holy man/woman can do it for you. You do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

The RCC has perverted this portion of the LAW by requiring their priests monsignors bishops cardinals and pope to grant forgiveness on behalf of the congregation. The dogma is called Absolution and is not LAWful according to explicit interpretation of God's Word/LAW. Did you know Pope Francis has granted absolution of SINs for those who follow him on social media? This is not Biblical, but is a good example of lawLESSness in our churches.

This is why I insist on the importance of LAW in our hearts and minds. It clears the road, so to speak. Hope this helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[jaybo]

Jesus DID NOT abolish the LAW. He didn't abolish any part of it.

"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Your intentions are good, but your attention to detail needs tweeking.

Jesus NEVER abolished the LAW or any part of it. Read what He said about this:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

In the above Jesus referred to Hebrew punctuation marks consisting of JOTS and TITTLES. Examine Hebrew writing. Along with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet there are tiny dots and pen strokes. These tiny marks accentuate the letters and contextualize the meaning of the words they compose. Not only did Jesus say He would NOT abolish the LAW, but that He wouldn't even erase a single JOT or TITTLE of these punctuation marks. Modern Hebrew doesn't use them a whole lot because one can get the gist of the meaning of secular words without them, but with regard to the LAW they are very important.

What did Jesus mean when He said He came to fulfill the LAW? What requirement of the LAW did Jesus provide? It has nothing to do with what we DO. Hint: it has everything to do with what we accept. The provision Jesus fulfilled is permanent and cannot be changed. What was it? This is why I insist THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Gentiles are not required to observe certain details of the 613 laws of Torah. Which parts are excused and which parts aren't are a matter of debate since Paul & Peter held different points of view on the subject. On the other hand, there's a great deal of it gentiles are indeed required to observe. The LAW determines what gentiles and Jews ought to believe and why. Many heresies in the church have been created because the church has turned its back upon the LAW so as to favor secular society or to exercise control issues over congregations or both.

What do you mean by civil law?

Generally speaking ancient Israel, not the Israel of Jesus' time, was a Theocracy - ruled by unelected religious leaders. In Jesus' time Israel was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire and could not enforce major laws without the approval of the Roman governor. Today the modern State of Israel is a republic, but still observes the requirements of Torah. For instance, the entire country shuts down on Shabbat (Saturday). Nothing moves on that day.

America used to be a republic governed by law, but that has changed. It's a subject for another discussion.

Many of the laws listed in Torah are CASE LAW. For instance, if a man's lamb or cow falls into a ditch on shabbat (sabbath) he is allowed to fetch it out. Normally work is forbidden, but in this case its ok. Many churches follow shabbat restrictions and this CASE LAW is useful to show them they are allowed to work during an emergency situation. Jesus amplified the CASE LAW when He healed on shabbat. The pharisees objected to His healing on shabbat, but had to violate their own understanding of LAW to do it. They were more interested in priestly control issues than in following God's Holy LAW - as are most churches today. We see here an example of Tradition over LAW. The LAW is not bad, but tradition can be devious.

Parts of ceremonial LAW are not applicable today.

For Jews, many portions of the ceremonial LAW aren't applicable because they're linked to the TEMPLE which no longer exists. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, some portions of temple LAW are observed by churches without knowing what they're doing. For example, the LAW states that when one comes before the Lord for forgiveness one must do it personally. No priest or holy man/woman can do it for you. You do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

The RCC has perverted this portion of the LAW by requiring their priests monsignors bishops cardinals and pope to grant forgiveness on behalf of the congregation. The dogma is called Absolution and is not LAWful according to explicit interpretation of God's Word/LAW. Did you know Pope Francis has granted absolution of SINs for those who follow him on social media? This is not Biblical, but is a good example of lawLESSness in our churches.

This is why I insist on the importance of LAW in our hearts and minds. It clears the road, so to speak. Hope this helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Is there something about Romans 7:4 that you don't understand? It says, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."

How about Romans 6:14, "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

Christians are dead to the law. Period.

 

[Barbarian]

There are TWO LAWS.

When one speaks to gentiles the LAW is that which is stated in Torah - the first 5 books of the Bible also latinized as Pentateuch. Even simpler, the LAW is the 10 commandments. These are also called the LAW of Moses, the moral law or the Royal Law. Take your pick. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Romans 2:12, depending upon the translation you consider reads as 'He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.'. I think it's pretty clear. Break God's LAW as revealed in His Word and one suffers the consequences WHETHER ONE IS SAVED OR NOT.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

My post provided a review of the pattern by which LAW & GRACE interact with one another. LAW does not subvert GRACE and GRACE does not replace LAW.

At the risk of complicating matters the SECOND LAW is called Talmud.

The first LAW, the LAW of Moses, is called Torah and is given by an act of GRACE of our Lord to mankind. It cannot be revoked or replaced.

The second law, the law of the rabbinate, is called Talmud and is dictated by tradition, or works.

Talmud and Torah present a tension between grace and works. This tension is referred to many times in the gospels and epistles by Jesus and the apostles. Generally speaking when the narrative mentions 'works' or 'traditions' it refers to Talmud. When the narrative mentions grace it refers to Torah.

Gentiles, who are not subject to Talmud, are generally unaware of the requirements of its adherents. Most of the 613 LAWS of the Torah aren't applicable to gentiles and a lot aren't applicable to Jews either for several reasons.

It's often said by church folks that Jewish traditions won't save anybody. This is true, but Christian traditions won't save anybody either. Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter bunny, baptism and Holy Communion won't save either, yet church folks act as if they do. Church folks stumble over the same traditional mumbo jumbo as their Jewish brethren.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[nitpick]Um, "penta" is Greek. "Quinque" is Latin for "five."[/nitpick]

 

[choir loft]

Is there something about Romans 7:4 that you don't understand? It says, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."

How about Romans 6:14, "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

Christians are dead to the law. Period.

I understand quite well. Some remain quite confused, unfortunately.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "I have NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a tittle, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

Jots and tittles are tiny punctuation marks used in written Hebrew. Their purpose is to clarify and contextualize the meaning of the words they identify with. Not only did Jesus NOT abolish the LAW, but He didn't erase so much as a period or scribe mark of any of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet by which its written.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, what portion of it did He fulfill? In doing so, He made the LAW perfect. What did He do that made the LAW perfect? (Hint: it wasn't accomplished by living a perfect life.) Also, please consider the question of the purpose of the LAW. Its purpose stands to this day. What is it?

Grace does not subvert the LAW. It NEVER justifies SIN as some contend.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Refusal to recognize the purpose of the LAW in the process of redemption does not nullify it. Refusal of the purpose of the LAW supports SIN, not righteousness.

THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

One is the LAW of grace given by God to Moses on the holy mountain.
One is the law of works begun by the Jewish rabbinate during the Babylonian captivity (called the Talmud).

Jews who lived in Jesus' time were educated by the Son of God and His apostles as to the difference. They knew, as gentiles did not, what Jesus and the apostles were talking about when they referenced works of the LAW and justification by GRACE. They understood two different laws are at work. References to a law of works are either remarks directed at Jewish traditions or the Babylonian Talmud. Christian traditions such as Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter Bunny, baptism and Holy Communion don't save us either. Only the blood of Christ can save.

What then is the role of the LAW in the normal Christian life? It is much indeed.

Until recently the Protestant church knew the answer. Unfortunately secular influence as well as the insinuation of Roman Catholic dogma upon Protestant doctrine has eroded the understanding God intended us to possess.

How do LAW & GRACE work together unto salvation? Think of a bathroom sink and mirror to understand this spiritual principle.

A man cannot see that his face is dirty, so he uses a bathroom mirror to understand his need of cleaning. The mirror, representative of the LAW, can reveal his dirt but it can't cleanse him of it. He needs soap and water to finish the job. Soap and water, representative of GRACE, can clean the dirt from a man's face, but it cannot reveal to him that he needs cleaning. Thus soap and water, like LAW & GRACE work together to cleanse us of dirt and SIN.

This allegory is a bit simplistic, but is an effective teaching aid to understand the interactive role of both.

Jews observe SHAVUOT - the time when God gave the LAW to Moses.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Passover/Easter.)
Christians observe PENTACOST - the time when God gave GRACE to mankind.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Easter/Passover.

Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something very important about LAW & GRACE?

Both work together unto redemption. GRACE does not abolish LAW and LAW does not nullify GRACE.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[jaybo]

I understand quite well. Some remain quite confused, unfortunately.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "I have NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it."

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a tittle, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

Jots and tittles are tiny punctuation marks used in written Hebrew. Their purpose is to clarify and contextualize the meaning of the words they identify with. Not only did Jesus NOT abolish the LAW, but He didn't erase so much as a period or scribe mark of any of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet by which its written.

If Jesus didn't abolish the LAW, what portion of it did He fulfill? In doing so, He made the LAW perfect. What did He do that made the LAW perfect? (Hint: it wasn't accomplished by living a perfect life.) Also, please consider the question of the purpose of the LAW. Its purpose stands to this day. What is it?

Grace does not subvert the LAW. It NEVER justifies SIN as some contend.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Refusal to recognize the purpose of the LAW in the process of redemption does not nullify it. Refusal of the purpose of the LAW supports SIN, not righteousness.

THERE ARE TWO LAWS.

One is the LAW of grace given by God to Moses on the holy mountain.
One is the law of works begun by the Jewish rabbinate during the Babylonian captivity (called the Talmud).

Jews who lived in Jesus' time were educated by the Son of God and His apostles as to the difference. They knew, as gentiles did not, what Jesus and the apostles were talking about when they referenced works of the LAW and justification by GRACE. They understood two different laws are at work. References to a law of works are either remarks directed at Jewish traditions or the Babylonian Talmud. Christian traditions such as Santa Claus, Halloween witches, the Easter Bunny, baptism and Holy Communion don't save us either. Only the blood of Christ can save.

What then is the role of the LAW in the normal Christian life? It is much indeed.

Until recently the Protestant church knew the answer. Unfortunately secular influence as well as the insinuation of Roman Catholic dogma upon Protestant doctrine has eroded the understanding God intended us to possess.

How do LAW & GRACE work together unto salvation? Think of a bathroom sink and mirror to understand this spiritual principle.

A man cannot see that his face is dirty, so he uses a bathroom mirror to understand his need of cleaning. The mirror, representative of the LAW, can reveal his dirt but it can't cleanse him of it. He needs soap and water to finish the job. Soap and water, representative of GRACE, can clean the dirt from a man's face, but it cannot reveal to him that he needs cleaning. Thus soap and water, like LAW & GRACE work together to cleanse us of dirt and SIN.

This allegory is a bit simplistic, but is an effective teaching aid to understand the interactive role of both.

Jews observe SHAVUOT - the time when God gave the LAW to Moses.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Passover/Easter.)
Christians observe PENTACOST - the time when God gave GRACE to mankind.
(The observance happens 50 calendar days after Easter/Passover.

Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something very important about LAW & GRACE?

Both work together unto redemption. GRACE does not abolish LAW and LAW does not nullify GRACE.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Apparently you don't understand to whom Jesus was talking in Matthew. He was not talking to Christians, as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. He was talking to (primarily) Jews.

I strongly recommend reading Galatians if you want to understand the relation of Christians to the law. Here is an excerpt: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" Galatians 5:18 That encapsulates Paul's instructions about the law vs the Spirit.

If you need a longer explanation, Galatians 3:10-13a says, "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus DID NOT abolish the LAW. He didn't abolish any part of it.

"I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Your intentions are good, but your attention to detail needs tweeking.

Jesus NEVER abolished the LAW or any part of it. Read what He said about this:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. - Matthew 5:18

Hey Choir loft,
I think you misunderstood my post to you.

I never said Jesus abolished the Law....
Then I distinguished between the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and MORAL LAW...

In the above Jesus referred to Hebrew punctuation marks consisting of JOTS and TITTLES. Examine Hebrew writing. Along with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet there are tiny dots and pen strokes. These tiny marks accentuate the letters and contextualize the meaning of the words they compose. Not only did Jesus say He would NOT abolish the LAW, but that He wouldn't even erase a single JOT or TITTLE of these punctuation marks. Modern Hebrew doesn't use them a whole lot because one can get the gist of the meaning of secular words without them, but with regard to the LAW they are very important.

What did Jesus mean when He said He came to fulfill the LAW? What requirement of the LAW did Jesus provide? It has nothing to do with what we DO. Hint: it has everything to do with what we accept. The provision Jesus fulfilled is permanent and cannot be changed. What was it? This is why I insist THE LAW STILL STANDS.

I can't be sure of what you're speaking....
What Jesus DID accomplish is that He was perfect.
This perfection is what made Him be our expiation, our atonement.
Only a perfect lamb could do this (Exodus) and Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God.

As to what we accept, I think you'll have to explain.

Gentiles are not required to observe certain details of the 613 laws of Torah. Which parts are excused and which parts aren't are a matter of debate since Paul & Peter held different points of view on the subject. On the other hand, there's a great deal of it gentiles are indeed required to observe. The LAW determines what gentiles and Jews ought to believe and why. Many heresies in the church have been created because the church has turned its back upon the LAW so as to favor secular society or to exercise control issues over congregations or both.

What do you mean by civil law?

Generally speaking ancient Israel, not the Israel of Jesus' time, was a Theocracy - ruled by unelected religious leaders. In Jesus' time Israel was an occupied territory of the Roman Empire and could not enforce major laws without the approval of the Roman governor. Today the modern State of Israel is a republic, but still observes the requirements of Torah. For instance, the entire country shuts down on Shabbat (Saturday). Nothing moves on that day.

America used to be a republic governed by law, but that has changed. It's a subject for another discussion.

Many of the laws listed in Torah are CASE LAW. For instance, if a man's lamb or cow falls into a ditch on shabbat (sabbath) he is allowed to fetch it out. Normally work is forbidden, but in this case its ok. Many churches follow shabbat restrictions and this CASE LAW is useful to show them they are allowed to work during an emergency situation. Jesus amplified the CASE LAW when He healed on shabbat. The pharisees objected to His healing on shabbat, but had to violate their own understanding of LAW to do it. They were more interested in priestly control issues than in following God's Holy LAW - as are most churches today. We see here an example of Tradition over LAW. The LAW is not bad, but tradition can be devious.

What you write above is CIVIL LAW. You call it Case Law. I've never heard it called that, but it's the same as Civil Law.

Parts of ceremonial LAW are not applicable today.

For Jews, many portions of the ceremonial LAW aren't applicable because they're linked to the TEMPLE which no longer exists. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, some portions of temple LAW are observed by churches without knowing what they're doing. For example, the LAW states that when one comes before the Lord for forgiveness one must do it personally. No priest or holy man/woman can do it for you. You do it yourself or it doesn't get done.

Again, I agree and this is what I stated in my last post to you.

The RCC has perverted this portion of the LAW by requiring their priests monsignors bishops cardinals and pope to grant forgiveness on behalf of the congregation. The dogma is called Absolution and is not LAWful according to explicit interpretation of God's Word/LAW. Did you know Pope Francis has granted absolution of SINs for those who follow him on social media? This is not Biblical, but is a good example of lawLESSness in our churches.

This is why I insist on the importance of LAW in our hearts and minds. It clears the road, so to speak. Hope this helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Pope Francis has taken a few undoctrinal stands, which he promised not to change BTW, when he took his oath as Pope. Most Catholics are waiting for him to retire.

You said that persons had to ask forgiveness themselves, personally, before the Lord.
How do you reconcile that with the necessity of offering sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of sins - in which case priests were used.?

 

[GodsGrace]

jaybo

Hi Jaybo
Could you tell me why you gave me a like in the post above?

OR
See my thread in Theology re the Law and Grace...

 

[jaybo]

jaybo

Hi Jaybo
Could you tell me why you gave me a like in the post above?

OR
See my thread in Theology re the Law and Grace...

I liked the overall message of your post, but I especially liked this...

I can't be sure of what you're speaking....
What Jesus DID accomplish is that He was perfect.
This perfection is what made Him be our expiation, our atonement.
Only a perfect lamb could do this (Exodus) and Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God.

I'm not sure why people have difficulty understanding what Jesus' sacrifice accomplished. IMHO it's just not that complicated. God demanded sacrifice for sins committed, and Jesus was that perfect sacrifice.

 

[choir loft]

Apparently you don't understand to whom Jesus was talking in Matthew. He was not talking to Christians, as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. He was talking to (primarily) Jews.

I strongly recommend reading Galatians if you want to understand the relation of Christians to the law. Here is an excerpt: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" Galatians 5:18 That encapsulates Paul's instructions about the law vs the Spirit.

If you need a longer explanation, Galatians 3:10-13a says, "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.

I don't understand to whom Jesus was talking to in Matthew? REALLY?

While it is true Matthew wrote to Jews, as GOD does with ALL the Bible, it isn't restricted to Jews alone.
Read the book of Acts.

The common argument that's so often used to OPPOSE an assertion clearly and distinctly quoted from the Bible is to insist it's only for JEWS and not the rest of the world. This is absolute satanic rubbish, but far too many seem to embrace it.

Is the Bible then reserved for Jews alone or do gentiles somehow get to pick and choose what they will or will not accept from it? I read nothing in the Bible to justify such a lie.

There is no such thing as autonomous GRACE.
The LAW is not abolished.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Therefore both LAW and GRACE work together unto redemption. One cannot rely upon one or the other alone. This you do NOT understand.

Truly truly I say to you that most church folks don't understand the mechanism BECAUSE they've not been educated in it. The interpretation of GRACE, or "soft grace" as it is defined by the Methodist church, has been dangled in front of Christians like fish bait. Many have swallowed it to their disservice.

You quote the words "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the LAW."

To this I ask two questions:
Which LAW? (I refer to general names or categories. There are at least 3. Torah/Pentateuch is but one of them.)
What curse? (What is this curse of which you speak? Is it cursed to be required to obey God?

If one is redeemed from your curse, how then ought one to live so as to please God? The LAW tells us how to live so as to please God. GRACE enables us to do so.

Some are redeemed from the curse of the law, but not from God's Word to obey it. There's a big difference here you do not perceive. Can one be released from traffic laws? Tell me when you're on the road so I can stay home.

Why do you seek so eagerly to defend SIN - to oppose the LAW which defines it, tells us how to escape it, tells us who to go to for justification, and tells us how to live the new life the High Priest gives us?

As for me and my house, we trust and obey the Lord.

"Who do you trust, hubba hubba." - the Joker from BATMAN the movie

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[for_his_glory]

Closing this thread in order to do some cleaning up as violations of the ToS are being made. Will reopen when I am done.

 

[for_his_glory]

This thread is opened for discussion on the OP.
Please remember the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 please go back and read them and treat other members with respect or you will be removed from this thread.

 

[choir loft]

Closing this thread in order to do some cleaning up as violations of the ToS are being made. Will reopen when I am done.

I am NOT interested in buying your publications, sir. Referring to your literary body of work is more like advertising than Bible study.

If a man wants to study God's Word he will open his Bible and have a look. Many today are more inclined toward eisegesis than exegesis. They are more inclined to study doctrine supported by tiny clips of scripture to justify their pet ideology than to dig into Holy Writ to discover contextual Godly intent. They are more inclined to "read into" scripture (eisegesis) than to discover what the words really say (exegesis). Modern homiletics suffers as a result. Consequently a lot of rubbish is being transmitted to congregations of religious sheep who are being sheared rather than fed.

The Methodist church is particularly good these days at transmitting what it now calls, "the soft gospel". More interested in attracting people who are under the gay authority rather than God's authority, Methodist preachers abandon Biblical necessities such as Repentance and definitions of SIN - or so I was personally informed by a Methodist preacher as well as senior people in leadership positions. Is this sufficiently explicit for you?

Most people don't take the time to examine religious or political issues in depth.

So they choose people they believe are experts to do it for them. This is true for all religions and all forms of politics. They prefer to memorize what someone said or wrote about the Bible rather than scripture. It's why there were legions of Rabbis in Jesus' day with disciples of their own. "Teach us how to pray (like the other Rabbis do for their disciples)," the followers of Jesus asked. (Luke 11) It was, and is, a lot faster in terms of time expenditure to listen to Jesus' version of the Bible than to dig it out for themselves. It's rare to find a Berean type Christian these days - or a Berean type Jew either. (Acts 17)

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

Christians of all types like to think they're above the LAW (Mosaic LAW). They invent their own traditions and local regulations to usurp God's Law (just like Jews - then and now). Oh sure, we can't murder people but we can lie cheat and steal all we want. We send men and women to Washington, DC to do it all day long for us. Democrat or Republican - Christian or Jew it matters not. It is what it is, or so we all believe.

But God doesn't think like we do. He's interested in good. We're interested in our appetites.

NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

I'm sure someone will choke on this remark, but it's true enough. Have you wondered why people are asked to come forward at the end of a revival meeting to accept Christ? The LAW says we must present ourselves to God in person. No one is allowed to do it for us. It's the LAW. When we "hit the sawdust trail" we are doing what the LAW declares for us - whether we know it or not. There's more to the subject, a lot more but blanket rejection of the LAW does not serve anyone well.

Unless of course one is more inclined to embrace the dark recesses of SIN rather than God's Holy LAW.......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[choir loft]

Hey Choir loft,
I think you misunderstood my post to you.

I never said Jesus abolished the Law....
Then I distinguished between the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and MORAL LAW...



I can't be sure of what you're speaking....
What Jesus DID accomplish is that He was perfect.
This perfection is what made Him be our expiation, our atonement.
Only a perfect lamb could do this (Exodus) and Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God.

As to what we accept, I think you'll have to explain.


What you write above is CIVIL LAW. You call it Case Law. I've never heard it called that, but it's the same as Civil Law.



Again, I agree and this is what I stated in my last post to you.


Pope Francis has taken a few undoctrinal stands, which he promised not to change BTW, when he took his oath as Pope. Most Catholics are waiting for him to retire.

You said that persons had to ask forgiveness themselves, personally, before the Lord.
How do you reconcile that with the necessity of offering sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of sins - in which case priests were used.?

Your own statement reveals you are uncertain about the function of the LAW.
Early in the above post you state you "never said Jesus abolished the LAW" then you go on to distinguish between civil, ceremonial and moral LAW. Please allow me try to focus the discussion a bit.

Jesus' perfection is NOT the FULFILLMENT of the LAW he spoke of in Matthew 5:17 (I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it.") You also wrote His perfection is "what made Him ... our expiation/atonement." You get close to it when you say He is the perfect Lamb of God, but still aren't quite on target. Jesus' perfection is what enabled or allowed His sacrifice to be accepted, but it wasn't fulfillment. Here is my point and the fulfillment Jesus spoke to in Matt 5:17: HE DIED ON THE CROSS.

You shoot all around it, but never hit the nail on the head. The fulfillment of the LAW Jesus spoke of AND that which does not abolish the LAW is His death on the cross. The ironic thing about this is that Jews didn't and still don't "get it" either. Jews pretend to know the LAW, but don't look in the direction it points - to Jesus. They are rather like children who see someone point to the sky and say, "look at the bird." Instead of looking up they look at the pointing finger ... and miss the bird completely.

What is the function of the lamb in the LAW? Let's use the passover story as an example: lamb's blood was used as a sign of FAITH by those who applied it. Death passed over those who did and destroyed those who did not. As it was in Moses' day so it was in Jesus' day and so it is today. God had to die so that we, by faith, may be 'passed over' at the time of judgment BY THE LAW.

This is why I write NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

Civil LAW in the OT as well as in NT is demonstrated and underlined by CASE LAW. They aren't two different things. For instance, read Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus is using the same technique as used in the Tanakh to underline and teach LAW. Do you know which LAW the parable refers to? Try #2 - love thy neighbor. The second commandment is LAW while case law is the parable. That's all there is to it. It's also why there are 613 laws in Torah. A lot of it is case law. A lot of those laws are mitzvah, or duties that give purpose to or explain LAW. Gentiles generally lump the whole thing into tradition as do many Jews, but they are merely examples of case law which still qualifies as part of the whole enchilada. Secular attorneys study case law so as to apply the letter of the law in court.

Finally you asked: "How do you reconcile that (personal sacrifice) with the necessity of offering sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of sins - in which case priests were used.?"

There are a lot of different types of sacrifices specified to be performed at the temple in Mosaic LAW. I'd have to go into the actual layout of the Wilderness Tabernacle and Jerusalem Temples in order to be exactly specific, but I'll try to have a go anyway.

The temple was built as a pattern of the Eternal Heaven. Read about the pattern God gave to Moses in Exodus. It was composed of a series of areas, each bigger than the one inside. There was only one entrance - a gate or curtain on the east side. Church folks like to say Jesus is the only way to God, but don't realize they are speaking LAW when they do it.

With but a few exceptions individuals were required BY LAW to enter at the gate where the first piece of tabernacle/temple furniture they saw was the altar. Individuals were then required to take their sacrifice (specific as to the situation - sometimes a bird, goat, grain, etc.) to the altar and in the case of an animal slaughter it there. In other words, Hebrews were not allowed to approach God without a sacrifice in hand. (The LAW still stands for no one today is allowed to approach without a sacrifice either. Our sacrifice is Christ, BY THE LAW.) Hebrews were required to perform the ritual themselves with the priests dividing the meat and performing clean up duties. Priests could NOT perform the ritual act of sacrifice. Unfortunately the RCC has usurped this legal requirement. Their priests perform the sacrifice themselves at the altar each mass - actually crucifying Christ each time when scripture says He died once for all (1 Peter 3:18).

Once a year the High Priest would enter the Holy Place, a curtained or walled area inside the temple, which is in turn divided into two parts. A huge veil or curtain divided the Holy Place into two compartments. What happened to this curtain when Jesus died on the cross? What does this event mean BY THE LAW?

The inner compartment is called the Holy of Holies and contains only two pieces of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant and the Mercy Seat. Once a year the High Priest would sacrifice a spotless lamb FOR THE NATION and offer the sprinkled blood to God on the Ark. If you remember Exodus the Ark was an open box. Inside was the two tablets of Moses, THE LAW. Bear in mind the LAW condemns us of SIN. Upon the Ark rested the LID also called the Mercy Seat. The Mercy Seat, along with the sacrifice, protected the people from the wrath of God. Remember the movie INDIANA JONES AND THE LOST ARK? One of the final scenes shows the Mercy Seat being removed from the Ark. Within the Ark is death. Jones told his girl friend to close her eyes and not look at it (the LAW). Thus they were saved by Hollywood understanding of the LAW. It should be noted that prior to Jesus' execution the High Priest Caiaphas also stated that it was necessary for Jesus to die FOR THE NATION.

Here is now revealed 2 thorny items that many will refuse to accept - one of the heavy matters Jesus' referred to. The salvation of Christ is made available to the nation - to the group of those who ask for mercy. Those who are saved become Jews (Romans 2:29). Jesus didn't die for each of us as individuals. He died for us inasmuch as we are incorporated into the Kingdom of Heaven as Jews. Modern preachers like to declare that "Jesus died for me, or that Jesus died for you." He didn't if scripture is to be believed. Jesus died for the nation, for His Kingdom.

Consider this - that when we give our allegiance to Christ we JOIN His kingdom. Thus the kingdom is saved and all the subjects of Christ with it - as it was when God (Adonai) delivered Israel from Egypt after the passover. All the aspects of life in this new kingdom are discussed in the epistles of the NT, but in effect they are references to citizens of the Kingdom of God in Christ. As citizens of the kingdom we reap its benefits. Those outside the walls of the kingdom are never blessed nor are they given life.

This is all rather simplified albeit a lengthy post. I hope it helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..

 

[GodsGrace]

I liked the overall message of your post, but I especially liked this...

I can't be sure of what you're speaking....
What Jesus DID accomplish is that He was perfect.
This perfection is what made Him be our expiation, our atonement.
Only a perfect lamb could do this (Exodus) and Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God.

I'm not sure why people have difficulty understanding what Jesus' sacrifice accomplished. IMHO it's just not that complicated. God demanded sacrifice for sins committed, and Jesus was that perfect sacrifice.

Hi jaybo,
I meant to give you a like but gave it to the poster right under your post by mistake.
Sorry 'bout that.

I agree with your last sentence - needless to say.
Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God, as John the Baptist called Him after baptism.
And the price that had to be paid was so great that only "another" God could pay it (not a man).

And just like the Jews brought sacrifices for the priests to use...
We bring Jesus with us to God when the time comes.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your own statement reveals you are uncertain about the function of the LAW.
Early in the above post you state you "never said Jesus abolished the LAW" then you go on to distinguish between civil, ceremonial and moral LAW. Please allow me try to focus the discussion a bit.

Jesus' perfection is NOT the FULFILLMENT of the LAW he spoke of in Matthew 5:17 (I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it.") You also wrote His perfection is "what made Him ... our expiation/atonement." You get close to it when you say He is the perfect Lamb of God, but still aren't quite on target. Jesus' perfection is what enabled or allowed His sacrifice to be accepted, but it wasn't fulfillment. Here is my point and the fulfillment Jesus spoke to in Matt 5:17: HE DIED ON THE CROSS.

Jesus' dying on the cross was the final fulfillment of the Law.

He also fulfilled the Law in other ways. One was to live a perfect life, as I had mentioned.
He not only taught persons how to live...He was the perfect example of what He taught.
Only a perfect person could die on the cross for our sins.

Jesus fulfilled the Law by completing it.
Fulfill could mean to complete.
He completed the Law and the prophets by fulfilling, completing, many prophecies.

And, yes, the final way He fulfilled the Law was to complete what God had started back in the Garden...
God made a plan for our salvation and it was Jesus' death that completed that plan and made it available to us.

You shoot all around it, but never hit the nail on the head. The fulfillment of the LAW Jesus spoke of AND that which does not abolish the LAW is His death on the cross. The ironic thing about this is that Jews didn't and still don't "get it" either. Jews pretend to know the LAW, but don't look in the direction it points - to Jesus. They are rather like children who see someone point to the sky and say, "look at the bird." Instead of looking up they look at the pointing finger ... and miss the bird completely.

I have often thought that it's difficult not to understand that Jesus is the Messiah. I have a bible that lists most, if not all, of the prophecies He fulfilled. Anyone could accomplish 1 or 2, but there are many that Jesus completed.

What is the function of the lamb in the LAW? Let's use the passover story as an example: lamb's blood was used as a sign of FAITH by those who applied it. Death passed over those who did and destroyed those who did not. As it was in Moses' day so it was in Jesus' day and so it is today. God had to die so that we, by faith, may be 'passed over' at the time of judgment BY THE LAW.

Well said.

This is why I write NO ONE CAN BE SAVED APART FROM THE LAW.

Civil LAW in the OT as well as in NT is demonstrated and underlined by CASE LAW. They aren't two different things. For instance, read Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus is using the same technique as used in the Tanakh to underline and teach LAW. Do you know which LAW the parable refers to? Try #2 - love thy neighbor. The second commandment is LAW while case law is the parable. That's all there is to it. It's also why there are 613 laws in Torah. A lot of it is case law. A lot of those laws are mitzvah, or duties that give purpose to or explain LAW. Gentiles generally lump the whole thing into tradition as do many Jews, but they are merely examples of case law which still qualifies as part of the whole enchilada. Secular attorneys study case law so as to apply the letter of the law in court.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.
My statement was that we do not follow the civil law or the ceremonial law.
This is because we live in civil societies and we have our own civil laws and we also have ceremonies but I'm not even sure we could call them Law. I'd say they're more tradition than law. (or at least I can't think of any that are Law).

Yes, some of the 613 Laws are to explain or expand on Civil Laws already stated.

However, you mention the Parable of the Good Samaritan and then place under the heading of the 2nd Law.
Here you mean one of the Two Great Commandments of Jesus...They cover everything we are to do.

Finally you asked: "How do you reconcile that (personal sacrifice) with the necessity of offering sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of sins - in which case priests were used.?"

There are a lot of different types of sacrifices specified to be performed at the temple in Mosaic LAW. I'd have to go into the actual layout of the Wilderness Tabernacle and Jerusalem Temples in order to be exactly specific, but I'll try to have a go anyway.

The temple was built as a pattern of the Eternal Heaven. Read about the pattern God gave to Moses in Exodus. It was composed of a series of areas, each bigger than the one inside. There was only one entrance - a gate or curtain on the east side. Church folks like to say Jesus is the only way to God, but don't realize they are speaking LAW when they do it.

The Temple has a lot of meaning to it.
There was even bread on the altar.
Can't remember too much, but I know that it was very symbolic.

With but a few exceptions individuals were required BY LAW to enter at the gate where the first piece of tabernacle/temple furniture they saw was the altar. Individuals were then required to take their sacrifice (specific as to the situation - sometimes a bird, goat, grain, etc.) to the altar and in the case of an animal slaughter it there. In other words, Hebrews were not allowed to approach God without a sacrifice in hand. (The LAW still stands for no one today is allowed to approach without a sacrifice either. Our sacrifice is Christ, BY THE LAW.) Hebrews were required to perform the ritual themselves with the priests dividing the meat and performing clean up duties. Priests could NOT perform the ritual act of sacrifice. Unfortunately the RCC has usurped this legal requirement. Their priests perform the sacrifice themselves at the altar each mass - actually crucifying Christ each time when scripture says He died once for all (1 Peter 3:18).

OK.
I see what you mean about personal sacrifice.
Agreed. The priest killed the animal but it was personally presented by a person.
Our sacrifice is Christ...The Holy of Holies is now for everyone - Jesus was the better sacrifice.
The curtain has been torn from top to bottom and heaven's gate is open.

As to the CC...Jesus is not recrucified at each Mass.
It is a remembrance, as if we were standing at the cross of Jesus.
I will say that the priest says some words that are disconcerting to me (I'm not Catholic)
however, more than 1 priest has explained this to me and they are not recrucifying Christ.

Once a year the High Priest would enter the Holy Place, a curtained or walled area inside the temple, which is in turn divided into two parts. A huge veil or curtain divided the Holy Place into two compartments. What happened to this curtain when Jesus died on the cross? What does this event mean BY THE LAW?

The inner compartment is called the Holy of Holies and contains only two pieces of furniture - the Ark of the Covenant and the Mercy Seat. Once a year the High Priest would sacrifice a spotless lamb FOR THE NATION and offer the sprinkled blood to God on the Ark. If you remember Exodus the Ark was an open box. Inside was the two tablets of Moses, THE LAW. Bear in mind the LAW condemns us of SIN. Upon the Ark rested the LID also called the Mercy Seat. The Mercy Seat, along with the sacrifice, protected the people from the wrath of God. Remember the movie INDIANA JONES AND THE LOST ARK? One of the final scenes shows the Mercy Seat being removed from the Ark. Within the Ark is death. Jones told his girl friend to close her eyes and not look at it (the LAW). Thus they were saved by Hollywood understanding of the LAW. It should be noted that prior to Jesus' execution the High Priest Caiaphas also stated that it was necessary for Jesus to die FOR THE NATION.

Great point !
I never thought of this.
Jesus also completed the Covenant with Abraham and David.
He died FOR THE WORLD.
(thanks).

Good catch on the girlfriend closing her eyes not to see the Law.
I hadn't understood this.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

choir loft
part 2 of 2

Here is now revealed 2 thorny items that many will refuse to accept - one of the heavy matters Jesus' referred to. The salvation of Christ is made available to the nation - to the group of those who ask for mercy. Those who are saved become Jews (Romans 2:29). Jesus didn't die for each of us as individuals. He died for us inasmuch as we are incorporated into the Kingdom of Heaven as Jews. Modern preachers like to declare that "Jesus died for me, or that Jesus died for you." He didn't if scripture is to be believed. Jesus died for the nation, for His Kingdom.

What about John 3:16?
Jesus died for the whole world...
but if we're to be saved, we also must follow Him personally.
Like you said...how the Jews would personally present the animal to the priest.
It's national (Romans 9, 10 and 11 - election of Israel)
but it's also personal.

As for dying for His Kingdom...
There are 2 Kingdoms..one is right here and Jesus did want to establish a Kingdom on earth.
One will be at the end.

I don't quite understand why He had to die for this Kingdom here on earth.
It seems to me to be more of a consequence and fulfillment of God's plan of salvation, than a planned
death for the Kingdom.

Consider this - that when we give our allegiance to Christ we JOIN His kingdom. Thus the kingdom is saved and all the subjects of Christ with it - as it was when God (Adonai) delivered Israel from Egypt after the passover. All the aspects of life in this new kingdom are discussed in the epistles of the NT, but in effect they are references to citizens of the Kingdom of God in Christ. As citizens of the kingdom we reap its benefits. Those outside the walls of the kingdom are never blessed nor are they given life.

This is all rather simplified albeit a lengthy post. I hope it helps a bit.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..

OK. I agree with your statements ABOUT the Kingdom.
I'm not sure about this KINGDOM BEING SAVED, you might want to explain that a little better.
I have always learned that Jesus died for individuals.