The False Security of Eternal Security

[Webb]

Again, Romans 10:17 teaches how Biblical faith arrives.

 

[rrowell]

...and it's a spiritual entity, not an earthly organization. Acts 20 speaks of local elders in the congregation at Ephesus being raised directly by the Holy Ghost.

I confused, are you saying it is not possible to be in the Church while on earth?

 

[rrowell]

1 John 5:1 -- Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God

Gal 5:22 -- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith

Rom 2:29 -- But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

I'm not sure why you posted these, but it is a nice devotional... thanks

 

[farouk]

The verse say they believed. Then they fell away. They had to have a salvic belief for them to fall away for again, one who never was never a believer has always been fallen and cannot fall away.

This is stretching it because Hebrews 6 speaks of the apostate as those who cannot be renewed to repentance.

Judas was the Son of Perdition and he never truly believed.

 

[Webb]

How do we know Judas never really believed? He was given to Jesus by the Father, Jn. 17.

 

[Deborah13]

John 6:39 - "And this is my Father's will which has sent me, that of ALL that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day."

Jesus is saying that it is the Father's will that Jesus will lose nothing (categorically denies the thought of the thing, - as a separation from something with which there has been a close relation, - pronoun is himself, herself, itself, he, she, it)

Young's for "nothing" three separate words together in the Greek 3361, 1537, 846
Thayer's Lexicon (categorically denies....she, it)

Luke15:4-6 "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? ...."

To me this does not say that the sheep finds his way back to the shepard. The shepard goes and finds his sheep. I know a little about sheep and have herded sheep. Believe me sheep are too, I hate to say stupid but it's true, to find their way back to the flock. They will wonder off not even knowing the danger they may be in. You go and find your sheep before a bear or lion gets them.
I believe our Lord keeps us. The Holy Spirit finds a way to bring a lost one back to the fold.

This is just one of the mysteries of His amazing grace and love He has for us. We cannot comprehend this kind of love.

If we have to worry about our salvation and not be secure in the Lord, how is this any different than the old covenant? No
The Good News of Calvery is truly Good News.

 

[Deborah13]

How do we know Judas never really believed? He was given to Jesus by the Father, Jn. 17.

We do know that Judas didn't have the Holy Spirit and that he wasn't actually saved, covered by the blood anyway.
John 12:6 tells us Judas was a thief and didn't care for the poor.
AND then he sold out our Lord. He knew pretty much what would happen but he loved manna more.
Do you suppose he was chosen because God knew he wouldn't believe?

 

[Mitspa]

We do know that Judas didn't have the Holy Spirit and that he wasn't actually saved, covered by the blood anyway.
John 12:6 tells us Judas was a thief and didn't care for the poor.
AND then he sold out our Lord. He knew pretty much what would happen but he loved manna more.
Do you suppose he was chosen because God knew he wouldn't believe?

I think he "Judas" which is "Judah" or "Jew" was chosen as an example, for first the "Jews" then for all who attempt to attain the Kingdom of God by the "flesh" and not through the Spirit by faith. Also Good post above Deb13

 

[Eventide]

Twice dead...

Another reason why a person can only be saved ONCE is because they can only die TWICE.. and that is the...

Second Death...

There is no such thing as a third death, a fourth death, a fifth death, a sixth death.. etc etc..

 

[Eventide]

If I have told you EARTHLY things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe HEAVENLY..

I confused, are you saying it is not possible to be in the Church while on earth?

IMO no..

Our citizenship is in HEAVEN, not on earth.

The Apostle to the Gentiles makes this clear..

Set your affections on the things ABOVE, and NOT on the things on earth.. for ye are DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God..

We're certainly members of the body of Christ and we assemble here on earth, but our CITIZENSHIP is IN HEAVEN...

 

[heymikey80]

What proposition do the above verses prove?

Simply supplying what Scripture says about the relationship of faith to other events in the salvation of souls.

I thought someone asked about that?

 

[heymikey80]

The verse say they believed. Then they fell away. They had to have a salvic belief for them to fall away for again, one who never was never a believer has always been fallen and cannot fall away.

I drive away from Washington DC every weekend, without ever being a part of it.

Someone climbing a cliff face could readily fall away from the peak without ever reaching the top.

One can fall away from Christ without ever being a Christian.

 

[heymikey80]

The Lord Jesus in the Parable of the Sower speaks of those 'who for a while believe', who 'have no root'. (Luke 8.13)

(You nailed that, Farouk.)

 

[heymikey80]

Re: Saved ONCE...

YOu have said one cannot be saved twice, yet how do you explain that the prodigal was alive again? He had to be alive before, then died then alive again proving your theory false.

Ah, hm. We're talking about a parable here. The idea was that someone who disappeared for a long time with no communication would be presumed dead or considered legally disowned, essentially the same thing. The kid didn't factually die in the parable: the kid was separated from his family, from which resulted his treatment as dead.

Arguably, the younger son would be first a model of a group of people, not an individual.

---Heb 6 is clearly speaking of those who are in a saved position but fall away.

Well, in Hebrews the Apostle speaks again & again about the importance of the Christian having faith. He talks about faith all the way up to this passage, and then immediately afterward picks up the subject of faith.

But the Apostle doesn't attribute faith to the person fallen away in Hebrews 6.

---you have not explained why Simon was commanded by Peter to repent if that were impossible for Simon to do.

One might presume that the Spirit of God leads people to respond to the commands of God, and that Peter was looking for any sign that the Spirit of God was working on Simon. It seems Peter got some confirmation of that. Simon wasn't immediately dead like Ananias & Sapphira, and Simon seemed to have learned and changed from the interchange.

That does lead to a question, though: God Himself commanded Israel to follow the Law. Why did God do that?

 

[Mitspa]

The key to "eternal salvation"? "By grace ye stand"

If one rejects "GRACE" they reject the HAND of the Father, One in the Fathers HAND can never be removed!

The law-keepers or (breakers is a better name) are like Peter before the Spirit of Grace fell on him. They boast in their ability to serve God but they are really just a big chicken!:toofunny

But Peter! after the Spirit of Grace, became as bold as a lion! Declaring to the Jews; YOU have denied the Holy One of Israel!

 

[Danus]

You ask for it. You Put down your own will. Your own attempts to believe for the sake of believing, and ask God for his will for you. He gives us the faith we need, and that moment begins a relationship with the one who truly Loves us as we are, who truly knows us as we are, who made us. Through Him we are saved, and changed by his will.

You did not answer the question, how did YOU get your faith? how did YOU know to put down your will, how did YOU know to ask God for anything?

"It is difficult to make men understand that the salvation of the gospel is not by works but entirely by grace, that it is not presented to men as the reward of their own endeavors, but is given to them freely upon their accepting it by an act of simple faith or trust in Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

I did answer. When I said "ask", I'm alluding to prayer. That's what I did when I received faith. That's when I first felt the spirit of God, and was able to believe.

Faith is no doubt essential to salvation. As Charles Spurgeon said in the quote above, salvation is NOT some sort of reward given to man because of something he does to be good. That includes his own desire to believe if in fact he is only believing in believing by his own will to believe. That's not real faith; that's just trying to have faith.

But trying to have self faith, trying to muster it up in ones self, or believing by ones own will to believe for the sake of believing, is nothing but a work. It's just an effort. It is that type of thing that leads to doubt. no one who does that can possibly know they are saved, because they have yet to experience the grace God offers though the faith he provides them.

When people read the bible in bits and pieces they will only ever have a bits and pieces understanding of it. Sure, Romans 10:17 (NIV) 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. This one verse is very popular to use and just stop right there with nothing more than to quote this one verse. But, Paul makes a much BIGGER point after this verse. READ MORE TO UNDERSTAND.

18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.â€
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.â€
20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.â€
21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.

Romans 11 picks it up; 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me� 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.†5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.

Faith is more than just hearing, and hearing is more than just sounds. To have faith one has to give up trying to have that on their own and pray to God for salvation. When people read the bible in bits and pieces they will only ever have a bits and pieces understanding of it.

Fact is many people have heard the word of God. The word of God has been preached just about everywhere and yet many who have heard do not have the faith to believe it, and many who desire it are still trying to have it on their own, by their own effort to have faith instead of turning to God for it.

 

[Cassian]

One question...do you believe that God predestined us to heaven or hell?

absolutely not.

Why would God become a respector of persons when He Himself created man in His Image. His purpose was for man to be in an eternal union of communion with Him.

God not only created all men, but then when man lost life, and eternal existance, Christ came as man to save all men, so that each could do what God had planned in the first place, to freely work with Him. Or not.

 

[Cassian]

A problem eternal securists have is, for example, I have been told that Simon in Acts 8, that since Simon sinned by trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, then that would prove he was supposedly never saved to begin with. If simply committing a sin proves one is not saved to begin with, then when eternal securists sin (and all they all do) their sinning would prove they were never saved to begin with. True with Simon true, with eternal securists.

It is impossible to align anything with scripture if one starts from a false presupposition. It creates contradictions so theorists then develop new ideas to answer for the contradiction, thus reinforcing the false doctrine and put it further outside of scripture.

 

[heymikey80]

A problem eternal securists have is, for example, I have been told that Simon in Acts 8, that since Simon sinned by trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, then that would prove he was supposedly never saved to begin with. If simply committing a sin proves one is not saved to begin with, then when eternal securists sin (and all they all do) their sinning would prove they were never saved to begin with. True with Simon true, with eternal securists.

I'm not aware that commission of sin proves someone was never saved. I could bring together a number of people who say they sin, and I wouldn't consider them unsaved for simply committing a sin.

So this reasoning is not the reasoning of eternal security, but of a critic.

 

[Cassian]

Deborah13,

John 6:39 - "And this is my Father's will which has sent me, that of ALL that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day."

This is a typcial prooftext of eternal securitists but the context is not even referencing believers. It is about what Christ did on the Cross. It aligns with such texts as Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. Christ was given everything that was created in heaven and on earth. He redeemed, reconciled all things to God through His death and resurrection.

Consequently, all those things given Him, He lost nothing and will raise it the last day. In that last day, all the dead shall be raised, as well as a New Heaven and New Earth.

It is the next verse that refers to believers. Of the mass of mankind that Christ saved from death, those that see and believe will share eternal life with Him. All others will be assinged to hell, but they were raised, and Christ did not lose a single human being. Kinda impossible when He assumed our human nature and raised it from death to life. Which is what Rom 5:18 says, or I Cor 15:22 among others.

I believe our Lord keeps us. The Holy Spirit finds a way to bring a lost one back to the fold.

a contradiction. If He keeps you why did he let you wander off? True he seeks to bring back, but man (sheep) will wander again and again. Some do not want to be found, some are found but really don't want to remain.

This is just one of the mysteries of His amazing grace and love He has for us. We cannot comprehend this kind of love.

Yes, which is why He saved all men and the world from death. He loved His creation and id not think that it should be dissolved by death.

But the love you speak of is not really love. It is forced love if you cannot either choose to come or choose to stay. Read I Cor 13. God created man to be free just for that purpose. God did not want just another creature, but one like Himself, who not just loves but also freely responds to love.

If His love is so amazing, which it is, then all men would be saved, Hell would be a myth. God desires that all men come to know Him. If it was actually up to Him, don't you think He would save all men to heaven? After all, that was His purpose in creating man. Why did He permit Adam to fall, if His love was so great, that He cannot permit even one to be lost?